I hope you all have a little time to hear me out. My H and I have been married 23 years. Together we have 2 sons, 21 and 16. The oldest is out of state in college and the 16 y.o. is in private school. Due to an A of my H,he has a daughter (6 y.o. on Monday, March 24th.

I found out about the A on April 7, 96...he confronted the OW in my presence and I thought MAYBE that was a start. Apparently the child was conceived sometime in June of 96. Eight and one half months went by I thought everything was okay. Exact date, March 17, 97, I just started feeling a bit uneasy. He asked me what was wrong and I told him that something with him seemed to bother me (a lot). He came out and told me that the OW was pregnant. I asked when was she due, he told me at the end of March. The child was born on March 24. I thank God because had I not had that eeerie feeling, that child would have been born probably with him there, he would have signed the B.C. and also given her his name. I STOPPED THAT!@#

I just knew that I would not be able to accept it (the full responsibility of him being that child's father the way he wants to be...the same as our boys. NO, NO, NO. I told him to let this settle in a bit and to let me get my thoughts together because that was like a dagger in my heart. Eventually, I was able to accept the fact that she was here and that there was nothing I could do. I (we) sacrifice a whole lot to send out kids to the best schools (private). I don't care what I have or don't have, if it will benefit my children and their future, they had it. I looked forward to my kids growing up, going to college and pretty much live their own lives so that we can do that. Now, another 12+ years are added.

Now, OC birthday is coming ver soon, he asked me what can we do for her. I said, for now, just what we have been doing, doing the shopping for her birthday, Christmas, Easter, school, and miscellaneous. Now, all of a sudden he up and say he wants to pay her tuition every month ($500/mo). Oh my God. I said before you can do that, we have to sit down and gather our expenses and see what we have. My 16 y.o. has a driving permit. In two months, he will have to be insured. Our plans were to give him the car I have and I was to purchase a new one. We don't make a hellfied amount of money, but we live comfortable with what we have.

Now, lets get to the birthday thing, he asked me what can we do for her. He also stated that all he wants to do is contribute to her welfare and does not need contact. I said if you don't want to purchase her summer wardrobe, we can probably spare $100-$150. He said okay. Two days later, he tells me he would like to call OW to see what can he do for her birthday and establish a relationship with this child. Is that not contradicting what WE discussed. I think the right thing to do is to discuss it with me and then bring to her what we have to offer. But no. I said, okay, find out. This was Wednesday, March 19th. By March 21st, I asked him if had a chance to find out. He told me, not yet, he did not have the time. I checked his cell phone and saw that he spoke to her on Friday, March 21st. WOW.

How on God's green earth am I to work with this man when he still feels that he has to lie to me. I am the one that feels like I am left on the back burner.

I know he probably is afraid of C.S., but let's get to the bottom of it. He want's to do it right on his own so the court's won't have to get involved. The right way is discussing/compromising it with me first.

HELP ME PLEASE. I AM ON A VERGE OF JUST LETTING THIS MARRIAGE GO.

I feel exactly like you do. H and I are awaiting OW to go take paternity test next week. She did not show up on original date when we went. Anyway, after I found out we agreed everything will be done together.

We bought OC 3 outfits for Christmas and he shipped them to her home. He gave money in December twice and in January once that I know of. When she did not show up for the test I told him she will not get another dime until it is proven to be his child.

He later ask me last week if he could give her money I said no I do not want to but, he states he feels obligated to do so for his own satisfaction to show he is at least trying to do the right thing. We had told OW if it is his child we will support the child, no doubt.

Recently I picked up his phone and there was a text message from her saying Don't forget the Bank. Like she is his wife or something. I asked him if he heard from her and he stated no unless she called and he didn't answer. I think he is lying because, her message read like she already talked to him about the bank.

I told him to swear on that childs grave that he didn't talk to her and he did. There are other circumstances to make me doubt his honesty. I feel exactly like you I want to give up more times than you can count. I am trying to make sure if I do I am in a fairly comfortable state financial you know what I mean.

I am not happy anymore with this marriage. I have been praying trying to ask God to show me the way. I do not want to make a hasty decision based on pride and impulse, you know. Please think things through before you leap. I am trying to do at least a year before ending it.

God bless you and I will speak with soon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Butterflie:

My H is responsible when it comes down to our boys' needs and wants. He works real hard and takes care of the needs of the home. Before we were married and had kids, I LOVED to shop, it was an addiction. Once we were married and started our family, things changed. My thought was once we get our kids done with school/college, then it's time for us to live.

Another REAL problem I have with my H is that anyone can call him or visit him with their problems, HE IS ALL EARS. He is wonderful at encouraging others, but when it comes to encouraging me with this situation, he goes into silence. I wonder if he is hearing me. I'll pour out my heart explaining what I need from him as we are going through this. His response is okay. Two, maybe 4 days later, we're back to square one again.

There is one thing that I will not allow is he CANNOT play daddy in two homes. I tried to explain to him that there are HUGE CONSEQUENCES when you have a family at home and there's a child outside that you want to have a relationship with. The affair is one thing, something you could probably deal with for a while, it's over and you move on. But when there is a child involved in another home, it's like the pain never goes away. Having to go to visit that child is a constant reminder for me of the A. He swears that it's all about the child.

Last thing, (I could go on and on and on). The OW is a person who he has known from very young. They grew up in the same neighborhood. So he knows her, her brothers and sisters. One of her sisters called for my husband to do some repair work on her home. I did not believe it, so he brought home the paperwork/receipt. A few months later, the sister called again. This time she was called to get his cell number for her sister (OW). My H told her (in front) of me that they had nothing to talk about privately, but if the child needed something to call our home. She said forget it and hung up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> He wants me to trust him whenit comes down to talking to her becuase he states that there is nothing to hid. So, if there is nothing to hid, why is there a problem returning her call when I'm home? I think it is an ego thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Thanks for listening.

Your H sounds like mine. He has a big heart, tries to save the world when his home life is crumbling right before him. Today we had a big arguement and I stormed out of house. I told him to move out I was sick of him.

He kept calling my cell phone but, I wouldn't answer. I won't get into the reason for my outburst but, believe me it was a long time coming. I am getting so fed up at times I want out.

I feel like he is not being a man he is too weak and I should move on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Sour, I feel the urge to jump in here for a minute. I realize in this forum, we often leave out pertinent details due to anonymity and such however based on what you presented I will comment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Eventually, I was able to accept the fact that she was here and that there was nothing I could do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are correct. She is already here. You stated she is 6 and it sounds as though you two are not using the policy of joint agreement. I would recommend that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, all of a sudden he up and say he wants to pay her tuition every month ($500/mo). Oh my God. I said before you can do that, we have to sit down and gather our expenses and see what we have. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It appears to me (remember I don't live in your house but based on this quote) that your H is wanting to do more for oc and he is asking you. Yes, it may be all of a sudden to you when he pops this request but he didn't do it behind your back...he asked you first. Take that as a good thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Two days later, he tells me he would like to call OW to see what can he do for her birthday and establish a relationship with this child. Is that not contradicting what WE discussed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Although people make decisions in life they are certainly allowed to make new ones. For whatever reason, he'd like to have contact with his daughter. As painful as this is, you have several choices as I see it...you can (using the poja) support his decision to see his daughter and try to be part of her life too OR you can choose not to support this and then he will have this relationship outside of your support OR you can leave the marriage. Now, this is a MB site and I just suggested you leave...not my intent, my intent is to show you your choices. If your H chooses to have a relationship with his daughter and you do not support it, he may choose to do it without you and sneak and hide and further complicate your marriage with lies. He may choose to lie because he feels there is no support at home. You cannot control anyone. He is coming to you ahead of time and telling you his thoughts and again, I view that as a good thing. Now, the ball is in your court.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another REAL problem I have with my H is that anyone can call him or visit him with their problems, HE IS ALL EARS. He is wonderful at encouraging others, but when it comes to encouraging me with this situation, he goes into silence. I wonder if he is hearing me. I'll pour out my heart explaining what I need from him as we are going through this. His response is okay. Two, maybe 4 days later, we're back to square one again.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would suggest some marriage counseling. If you have already done that, then maybe it's time for a refresher.... I found too that my H was not 'listening' to me....In counseling I found that he viewed my talks as scolding him, making him feel less of a man, talking down to him (especially now with the affair) and everytime I opened my voice with 'honey, we need to talk' he SHUT DOWN! He was tired of hearing it. I would suggest spending some time on the 'recovery' board. Although their circumstances are different due to oc's, they are wonderfully wise people who can help or suggest new ways. If you feel he's not listening, there's a reason! Maybe and I do not mean to point fingers but to encourage you to look deep at yourself, maybe he feels bad about the affair and the oc, maybe he knows what a strain it is financially on your marriage, maybe he feels shame, maybe maybe maybe...and then he comes to you with thoughts and he gets shot down. I don't know, again I'm not there...just a thought. Look at your communication skills. Look at the intent you are trying to portray, are you speaking to him to find a poja or are you trying to get your way and convince him that his is wrong? just something to think about.

I hope I have not offended you. I am really trying to pick apart some of your post and offer a different way to look at it.

I have found in my short four months since d-day that a man's number one need in most cases is admiration and respect.

Even now when I am oh so angry about his affair and this mess we're in due to the possible oc, that I have to put a harness on it somewhat. Oh, I am certainly going through the stages of grief, I'm passing through the anger stage into whatever comes next. I have put my complete trust in God. Matthew 6, on this board, has told me many times that forgiveness sometimes needs to happen daily. I didn't understand that until recently. I thought I could make a one time I forgive and then move on but each court appointment, I have to forgive and each time a paper comes from the lawyer at home,I have to forgive, each time I think about xow I have to forgive and every painful conversation I have to forgive.

I say all of that to say this...it seems that your oc is six and there's still maybe some forgiveness that needs to happen. I wish you some peace in a stressful situation.

And finally, love your husband. You might find that he is more encouraged to be honest with you if he feels your reactions won't be hostile or demeaning. Find his 'language of love' and communicate to him that way. Lift him up, edify him, give him some praise, speak to him in a kind, gentle and loving way (yes, even when you want to strangle him). You might find that love is more powerful.

If you cannot live with your H's decision to have a relationship with his child that is your decision. You can choose not to stand by his side while he does it, however I do not believe you can stop him. You cannot beg, plead or stop his choices. He has one and so do you.

Sorry to ramble...just feeling a bit preachy this morning.

Good luck to you.

A

Angelia:

Thank you for your reply.

Now, I have tried everything in my power to get involved with this. The OW DOES NOT want me to be a part of this child, have no contact with this child, ONLY MY H. Then, the only way he can see her is if he goes to her house. He cannot take her for ice cream, to the park, and she also commented that she does not want her to know any of H family, especially me and my boys.

Then on the other hand, I mentioned to my H that we can and need to discuss what his true intentions are and then he can act upon them. You see, he discuss the issues with me and do something totally different. I don't tear my H down. I only let him know that when he does somthing totally different, I have a problem with that. I feel that he is hiding something from me. I want my marriage to work, but how can I support him when he shows me different? It's hard. I feel like he's just talking, but the decisions are OW and his. Like I explained to him, we are to discuss the issues, then you go to her with what we have. I don't think he should avoid me, go to her and make decisions, as if she is the exwife. You don't understand, the things he discuss with me is just for him to be able to say I told you about it. H has a totally different motive and I need to find out what it is.

If I suggest, okay, call her and find out what you need to do and let me know. Days go by and I'll ask have you had a chance to call her, he'll tell me NO...he did not have a chance to, then I find out that he did. (If have proof of the phone call). I do believe he should remain cordial with OW, but to an extent. He does not owe HER anything, it all about the child. But that is not what I am feeling. When I mention to him that I feel like the one who did wrong and express my true feelings to him, he builds up a defense. If I am willing to do whatever is necessary to make this situation smooth, except for letting him do things the way he wants, how he wants and when he wants without me, I seriously have a problem with that.

I also suggest MC. He told me he did not feel it was necessary, because no one can tell him how to run his life and no one can help up, but us.

Thanks for your imput.

Sour....

What this sounds like to me (again, I'm not there) is that because there is no court order, no visitation plan through the courts that your H and you are at the xow's mercy.

If a visitation order is done through the court then the child could come to your home, go to the park, etc....other people here have visitation and xow's may not like it when the child goes with the father and step-mother but it happens.

Just wondering why you and H don't speak to xow as a unified front?

Again, wishing you peace and love!

Good luck!

Maybe since you forbid his involvement the childs mother is a little nervouse about you.. you also dont know what was told about you to her.. You stated your self he cant treat this child as he does your sons, because you wont allow it. I think my concern would be that you seem to make or try to make any and all decisions reguarding your husband feelings and emotions and it just isnt possible... He is a grown man and my fear would be that it will backfire on you.. which is why he doesnt tell you every thing, because he knows the usual reaction.

MAYbe just maybe going to court is the good thing to do, he can have involvement as well as you if your intrested in being a loving step parent to the child. But 6 years is a long time to wait... I am sure your husbands has lots of gult he is dealing with.

Court would give your husband rights and visitation with you and your sons. with out the presence of ow. at first it might would be supervised, after all she doesnt know you or your husband very well.... but that can be done throught the court as well. Maybe day visits at first and more later.
This would solve alot of the mess involved.
If you dont want to go to court because of the amount of child support.. why not make an agreement in prvate with an attorney, we did and it is working out fine.
Hope you work it out.

S&B,
a suggestion is going to court and set up vistation through the courts. Then OW has no say who sees OC or not. My D is the same age as your OC and her birthday is March 30. So, I think it will be matter of time when OC will start to ask questions and about your H and his family. IF she has not asked already. I am not sure has your H has seen OC or not? Does he see her? I mean I would think that this child is already confused.

Dawn

Everyone is giving you good advice, S&B, because if you go through the court, they will order a paternity test and then child support (CS) can be warranted based on whether or not this other child (OC) is really your husband's!!! What if the child isn't even his biological child???!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I'm with you, you are the one who deserves preferrential treatment, not the OW. OW should not be dictating anything to you, your H OR your marriage!! Seems like if your H is dancing around OW's demands, it could feel to you as if OW is running the show. I totally disagree with your H's approach and so would Dr.Harley.

In fact, if you read on the Q&A portion of this website, Dr.Harley recommends that YOU, the betrayed spouse be the one who interacts between OW and the OC!!! NOT your H! And for reasons that are quite obvious. They had an affair that resulted in a child, what would stop the affair from rekindling if they are allowed to keep meeting each other in secret--and at HER house even?!! No way. I agree with your feelings on this.

I hope and pray that you will find a way to present some of the material on this website to your H and he would open up his heart to you and to rebuilding your relationship. You won't need counseling if you could just get your H to recognize the danger in what he's doing. (Not protecting you and the marriage through embracing a Policy of Radical Honesty.)

I just want to explain a few of the ""quotes"

[QUOTE] Now, all of a sudden he up and say he wants to pay her tuition every month ($500/mo). Oh my God. I said before you can do that, we have to sit down and gather our expenses and see what we have.

He told me about the tuition apparently after it was discussed with OW. How does he know what the amount of the tuition is? He's telling me this AFTER it has been settled. And this will be done in addition to all the other things he is already doing. Our bills and expenses are paid out of one account which BOTH incomes are deposited. Should I know these things after he and the OW discussed it?!@# Am I to just sit back and let them make decisions while I just sit back and agree? No he's not doing it behind my back, (per sa) but I don't want to know after the fact? The things he's telling me and NOT what is happening. How and when am I to ever feel comfortable with this.

MO5

By no means am I trying to forbid his involvement with his child. What I meant by he can't treat this child as he does our sons is that I will not allow him going to that house everyday playing "the daddy role"in that house, then come home and do the same. There are limits and very disresptful to me. There was enough damage done in that house.

I know I cannot try to make any decisions regarding my H feelings, but I would think it would be appropriate for him to be HONEST with me in his decision making. He does not live alone. I am someone that has his back in any and everything that he does (problems and all).

Yes, he is a grown man. But I expect him to practice what he preaches. I have two sons 21 and 16 and he is constantly preaching to them as to how to be a decent man, how to be truthful and honest with your mate, there should be no secrets. Do you think this is right. He mentions to them that if they follow these rules growing up, they will make some woman very happy. Do you think he's doing that?

Lastly, she does not want to go to court. You know why, she get's a heck of a lot more this way, and he cannot see it. It's all about them.

The OW has two other kids also for someone that she does not bother and who does not do a thing for those boys. When she calls and says that OC needs this, don't have anything to eat. Why? I don't deny anyone food. But when this money is sent over for groceries, everybody eats. Why not bother the boys' father?! The OC needs shelter, so does the other kids.

Knowing that you can't afford $500/mo tuition, why not discuss with my H? I am sure there are a few other real good schools out there that she can attend. Don't get me wrong, I chose the best schools for my kids, but it was the ones that were affordable. OW knows just how far H will go and knows that he would do anything for that child.

Thanks for listening. (I may have rambled off a bit, but I am so distraught right now, I don't know what to think).

S&B

<small>[ March 24, 2003, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: Sour & Bitter ]</small>

sounds like a major communication problem... I dont think your being unresonable, I do question both of them, Why would you put your child in private school, if you can not put food on the table ? Money not wisely spent..

<small>[ March 24, 2003, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

Sour and Bitter,

You have not heard all the options from the above posters, and this annoys me.

Why is it that the BS must agree to permit visitation with OC if the WS has the desire to do just that? Angelia speaks of your choices being accept this, not accept this and leave marriage, or face H doing this alone and/or going behind your back to see OC.

One option was not pointed out.Which having counseled with STeve Harley he would point out. If anyone in a couple is doing anything that hurts his/ her spouse, this is not correct and clearly a love buster. Nor, should either partner do something the other spouse clearly does not accept.

So, in that vein, another option is this: Your H could give up visitation, at least for now, unless you change your feelings about this. Why must you either leave marriage and/or accept visitation? What about the WS giving up contact to save the marriage? Steve would say the marriage comes first, and then other things may or may not follow.

Don't feel pressured to accept the OC if in your heart you cannot do it. I don't think contact is good for everyone nor indicated in all cases. And I am not convinced that even contact for OC is good always. Your feelings about the issue should matter to your H, and if they do not, that is the issue.

I know what I speak.My H has ignored my feelings and we are now in process of legal separation. I have filed papers and him going against my back for visits, or telling me of his intentions despite my objections, have killed any love I ever had for him. His disregard for my wishes and feelings has destroyed us. Almost as much as A and OC did.

Steve thinks doing this is destructive to a marriage and I am living proof of this. I don't care what my H wants at this point because he has so clearly not responded nor cared about my feelings on this issue. I definately don't care what OW wants. I resent every demand made by OW, and I resent every attempt by her to work with my H to do secret visits. As far as I am concerned, she and H remain in cahoots to destroy our marriage.

So, for now, I am out of the marriage, and I intend to make both of them pay for what they have destroyed.

don't follow my path. and Don't let your H follow his own individual path. It will destroy your marriage.

Unhappy wife & sour & bitter...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why is it that the BS must agree to permit visitation with OC if the WS has the desire to do just that? Angelia speaks of your choices being accept this, not accept this and leave marriage, or face H doing this alone and/or going behind your back to see OC.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">UH: I do not believe that anyone must agree to anything they do not want to agree to. POJA is not about giving anyone all the power in a relationship. Sour & Bitter, the bs, in this case does not have to be happy about visitation, nor does she have to be a part of it, HOWEVER, if her husband is hell bent on seeing or establishing a relationship with oc he will probably do just that...with or without her permission and with or without her knowledge. She can ask her husband not to do so,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your H could give up visitation, at least for now, unless you change your feelings about this. Why must you either leave marriage and/or accept visitation? What about the WS giving up contact to save the marriage? Steve would say the marriage comes first, and then other things may or may not follow.

Yes, UH, her husband could give up visitation but it didn't sound like he was going to do that (again, we are not in their household and living this nor do we know all the particulars).

I suggested counseling - they can do that with Steve Harley or any other marriage counselor who can assist them in coming to some sort of agreement.

UH & SB, I do believe that the marriage comes first - no doubt, however I also realize that I cannot MAKE my husband do anything.

I have to establish my own boundaries. I cannot force my boundaries on my H, my friends, etc. I can only force them on my children to the extent that they live in my house but when they turn 18 they are free to make their own boundaries...

So, my suggestion to sour was that they try to get some counseling, and after that she has some choices to make. She cannot 'make' her husband leave oc alone. She can ask, she can beg, she can plead, she can threaten, she can reason, however....when all is said and done, if her H wishes to see the child, and does not want to take any of her wishes into consideration then sour has a choice to make. That was my point.
Her answer to the suggstion of counseling was this... [QUOTE] I also suggest MC. He told me he did not feel it was necessary, because no one can tell him how to run his life </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">His reasons for not wanting marriage counseling further support my statement that she cannot 'make' him do anything regarding oc.

I do not wish divorce on anyone. I also do not wish for any of us to 'settle' into a relationship that is harmful to us. Living a lie, deceiving your spouse is harmful in my view. If sour's husband won't listen to her, won't take into consideration her viewpoint and continues to go behind her back, that is disrespectful and clearly outside her boundaries.

I believe in Harley's methods. Even Harley suggests boundaries in a marriage...overstepping boundaries and taking care of yourself despite what your wayward spouse is doing is exactly what plan B is all about.

I really hope that sour and her H can get into some sort of counselnig and I also hope they can get some sort of a custody/visitation agreement.

A

Angelia,

Don't get me wrong with the visitation issue. I did not mean I did not want him to establish a relationship or visitation, it's the way he is going about it.

The OW does not want to talk to H at our home. It has to be done via his cell phone! I asked why. He stated that ow said that the child has nothing to do with me, it's between H and her. THAT IS UNDERSTOOD!! If they were to talk when H was home, I would feel a lot better. It would show me that he is (at least) complying with one of my wishes. I will not be able to hear what she has to say. I just feel to believe that it must be more to it than what H is leading me to believe. He is making me see that the OW is getting her wish. She wont call the house, only cell, he has to see her at the house ONLY, he has to see her on a particular day that she feels comfortable with, and it seems to be on the days that the weather is bad so he would have to spend the hour or so inside of the home. This is just ridiculous. It appears to me that she is dictating to him.

I asked him not to give his cell phone number to her (as recent as 3-4 days ago). Now, not only does the OW has his cell number, OW sister, too. The sister calls the cell phone about 9:30 p.m. tonight and told him that the OW needed to talk to him and that he needed to call her. THAT IS GOING JUST TOOOO FAR!

It seems the OW came in first place again, and with me, H is in last place.

Thanks for listening.

Now, get this.