adgirl

I don't think Dr.Harley ever said kick anybody's kid to the curb. I think he says in Surviving An Affair to end the affair and have nothing to do with the OP ever again to avoid rekindling the affair.

When it comes to an other child. There are a couple of articles on this site. The Policy of Joint Agreement is the rule for MB. Here is an excerpt from one of the Q&A articles I found:

Pregnant with a lover's child

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you decide to remain married and create a mutually enjoyable future together, then the next decision you will need to make is how to treat Robin's former lover. Should he become a part of your family, with visitation rights as well as financial responsibility for raising his daughter? Or should he be out of your lives entirely?

As with the issue of divorce, this one should also be decided by enthusiastic agreement. But if you want my advice, I usually encourage a couple in your situation to keep the ex-lover away from your family. It may be difficult to engineer, but it is very important for Robin to try to avoid seeing or talking to him ever again. Granted, the affair may be over, but I am always concerned about the possibility of it becoming rekindled. If, for some reason, it is impossible to keep him away from his daughter, I suggest that you act as an intermediary, so that whenever he visits, he does not see or talk to Robin. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ April 15, 2003, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

the article btdt included in her post addresses a ww pregnant with om's child. this situation is quite different than an ow being pregnant with wh's child, which i have not actually seen addressed in any of the mb articles. if anyone has, please let me know.

here's how i see things:

the ww and bh have the upper hand. the om can be cut out of the situation all together. this allows ww and bh to raise the child and focus all of their attention on rebuilding their m w/o interference from the op(which is what is recommended by dr. harley if it is possible).

for the wh and bw to have c with the oc, the ow has to be included in the equation (except in rare cases where bw and wh get full custody w/ no visitation for ow). in situations where the bw and wh cannot successfully focus on rebuilding their m due to the ow's interference, i feel that nc is the best decision (though i do believe that cs should still be paid to ow for the oc).

my opinion is that the m should be priority.

I have counseled with Jennifer Harley Chalmers and was told that their view on it is that Marriages in which the couples have agreed on No Contact as per POJA are the ones that survive and heal and move on. Jennifer Harley acknowledged that it isn't an easy choice, but in the long run bottom line is, those marriages heal better and grow stronger.

She also mentioned that for those who feel that contact is needed, the Betrayed Spouse is the one who is the contact person and that it be worked out with third party arrangements to cut down on the "resentment" factor.

That is what I was told when I counselled with her personally. Again, as I state before, there is no one size fits all, in our case at the time, the ex-ow was "fatal attraction-like" and we felt for the best of all involved, that No Contact was best for our unique family situation.

But they do stand by that No Contact is the best route to go as far as OP's should not be in the equation of recovering a marriage.

Above all, actions have consequences, for BOTH the wayward spouse and the OP who chose to be involved. No one is guiltless. Except the OC and the WS's family who was hurt by the indiscretion.

That's what I got from it. I haven't read the revised "Surviving an Affair" but I heard more was added to the OC/Contact/NC sitution...anyone read it yet?

Twiisty

And to add to twiisty's comments, I've counseled extensively with Steve Harley (and Jennifer too), and I will reiterate that these scenarios are listed from most to least successful (in the cumulative experience of their marriage counseling).

1. No contact.
2. Contact mediated through the betrayed spouse, as per a POJA decision. No WS/OP contact
3. Contact, as a POJA decision, that includes OP.
4. Contact by WS with no regard for BS's feelings.

And I wish that we would all learn to ignore posts that rub us the wrong way here. I personally find myfamilyof5's post hypocritical and smacking of "Jesus is my flavor of the month" bbrand of faith. But then having one of our typical "pile-ons" is pretty silly too.

Thanks for all your input. Here is my RARE situation. My ex-h says he wants to be a full time dad. I had talked about letting me adopt the child but OW of course freaked. Which is funny to me because she gave up her 1st child with her ex-h except for every other weekend, and can call him twice a week. That is it. I have talked to her and she sounds very insecure and very needy- says that she wants my ex and her and the baby to be a family. My ex is wavering, saying he hasn't even thought of marrying her, he just wants to be a full time dad. Yet he tries to "help" her by taking her to church and I know he told her a couple of weeks ago he loved her, even though he said he now feels like God is convicting him (that God has convicted him since then) and really working on him. So I don't have a clue how any of that could work. That is why I know ultimately I have to let go and let God. Oh and he is also telling me that he wakes up morning afternoon and night thinking about me and what he has done to me and how he wishes he could take it all back. Yet he lied to me about how many times they had done it (which why lie, she is pregnant) and many many other things, so how do I know to believe him now!? I feel like he is still too much in a fog, which is why, as K suggested, I need to implement plan B. He likes to talk to me because he says it helps him, I think he is just a cake eater.

Oh one more thing. At first, when I found out, I insisted on NC if he wanted our marriage to work. That he had to put our marriage first - immediately he told his parents, who of course flipped at that, and gave him the guilt trip on how could he not be a father and let them be grandparents. How he had already messed up with me and how he needed to marry her and raise the child. Of course before the child was around his mother had said that OW would never be welcome in their home. Once a child comes in to play I get thrown out like garbage. It seemed like I was the wrong one for insisting NC. Now looking back, I think I was the only one who made sense. I was furious with him for telling his parents only 2 days after telling me- I asked him to wait until we knew what we were going to do and he didn't. I read the book WHat to Do if your spouse says " I Don't Love you Anymore" by David Clarke- it is a great book too. Only he talks more about how you SHOULD be angry, according to Matthew 18. I tend to agree with him more in that area- as long as it is a righteous anger and not a hateful anger- hate the sin and not the sinner- he says NO contact . My ex also doesn't know how it is fair for OW to raise the child alone, so I brought up adoption then too but no. And OW's ex was going to be willing to raise the child, but she stupidly left him again when she heard that my ex wanted to be a father. I know with God all things are possible but this is really a mess.

adgirl:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHat to Do if your spouse says " I Don't Love you Anymore" by David Clarke- it is a great book too. Only he talks more about how you SHOULD be angry, according to Matthew 18. I tend to agree with him more in that area- as long as it is a righteous anger and not a hateful anger- hate the sin and not the sinner- he says NO contact.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There's a fine line here. The bottom line in any of these situations that haven't ended in a completely remorseful WS (which is 90% of them, by my estimation), you are dealing with someone who is not "romantically" in love with you. If you want to keep them engaged in the marriage and attempt to rebuild the love---anger (in the form of angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements, selfish demands) has little place in a plan to rebuild the love. There's no doubt that you have every reason to be angry---it's what you do with it that counts.

Adgirl,

I just wanted to share my agreement with you that he does sound like a cakeman. One of the most shameful, embarrasing, and dispicable traits that I had as a WS, was my insecurity in both my relationships (during the A) and my selfish driven need to hold onto to both men. Gast, I cringe with I have to admit that. Many WS's are very insecure, needy people. Men and women alike. Remember that and don't let him drain your energy or your esteem while he makes his choices.

CM

K,
I do agree with the fine line. I also think that love must be tough, and it isn't helping anyone (the WS or the BS) to smile and act like everything is rosy and do what you can to outromance the OW. For example, I decided to serve my husband- do things for him, buy him little gifts, all the while he was still messing with her and he actually got a misdemeanor in the park for indecent exposure- the very time I was buying gifts and being "nice" and trying to be romantic. SO I think you have to make sure you are not a doormat. I think that tough love can tend to let a WS see what he is doing and also give yourself some self-respect.

Cmiranda,
Since you are a WS, I am curious;
were you telling both the OM and the BH that you loved them and that you didn't know what to do and you were confused? If so, then were you lying about that or in your FOG did you really believe it?
I can understand him having feelings for her since she is pregnant with OC, BUT I honestly don't think it is fair to her or to me to be told that he loves us, when I don't see how he could love either of us. God shows us what love is and WH isn't showing that love to either of us.; I guess I am more frustrated because I want him to decide who he wants to live for and who he wants to be and I know that he is too foggy to do that but it is frustrating because I feel like he is just burning himself more and all I can do is watch, or go to Plan B.

adgirl

Does plan B sound like something you would be able to do ? Since you have divorced him, is it possible if you dont give him the time of day, he would come to see what he has done and see maybe it isnt the life for him ? I dont think it could hurt.

I have friends who were divorced three years and have come back together and doing great.

Mom of 5,
Plan B is possible. Here is the situation. We are divorced but our house is for sale. He lives in it because I couldn't stand it, but since he has been FOGGY the calls are coming to me (For Sale by owner) so I have to call him to see if he can show the house or if I need to, when we get calls. Other than that we wouldn't have to talk, and when the house sells we won't have to.
BUT when I talk to him, he asks how I am, what I have been doing, about my family, admits that he was sad all weekend of my niece's 7th birthday because they were very close (she is crushed that Uncle R is gone) and he wondered what we were doing. But then Sunday I got this overwhelming urge to call him to see if he had lied about how many times he slept with her before she got pregnant (he told me they slept together 4x in August, then once in Nov. and she got pregnant.) He asked me why I would want to know because he has hurt me so much. I told him I needed to know. Well it had been more like 5-10 times in Oct. and Nov. SO I was livid that he had lied again. I know, against Harley's principles I was angry (and upset and hurt and confused.) SO I hung up. Well he called back and left this really long message. I took notes on it! hahaha. The notes in parenthesis, I have not shared with him- they are just my thoughts.
1. He says he does care about me- that is why this situation is so impossible (I say with God, nothing is impossible)
2. He says he knows lying does not show he cares, but he is so ashamed of what he has done and he doesnt want to hurt me anymore than he has already 'unbelievably' put me through- and yes, I am right, that he doesn't want to hurt himself either (I say that the Bible has dozens of cases about how unhealthy lying is, plus common sense tells you that. And that no relationship can make it on deceit. And that the lies have hurt worse than the actual truth because I have spent months thinking of stuff that "may" have happened because i don't know any better. It is also hurting him because he is constantly guilty and constantly deceiving and he can never be free if there are lies).
3. He said "There is not a day that goes by that I don't wish that I could take all this away."- (I say well then why don't you!! Tell the OW goodbye and focus on the marriage and then we will deal with what should happen with OC- who by the way, I think I could love with time and lots of prayer)
4. He says God has put His finger on him in the last few weeks (I say that if God is working in Him, that God will lead him to be reconciled to Him and then to me and that he will repent and have a dramatic change in his life)
5. He said that I was right when I said a while back that good things have come from this awful situation. I said that meaning that my relationship with God has gotten stronger and that I have evaluated my life and how I am as a person, a lot more. He said that he thinks he is finding out what a true relationship with God is. (He said that and yet he took OW to church that very day, thinking that he needed to help her in that way!? I don't know for sure how God thinks but I don't think God sees that as a blessing. Does anyone else?)
So in conclusion, he is a very confused man, which means I don't know what all to write in Plan B letter- if I address these comments or just write "hey we are divorced and I love you and I want you in my life, but not until the OW is completely gone and you have to make that decision".
???? Sorry so long!!
Thanks in advance to whoever replies.

hhhmmm I dont have a clue he sounds sincere, and the fact that he is wanting to know what is going on with you is good. I am guessing you dont go to the same church.

Have you told him what you just said in this message ?
I agree truth is easier to deal with than a lie most times... although sometimes I wish I had not asked. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> But I couldnt stop my self. Just had to open my mouth lol yeah I know hard to believe huh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ?
Praying seems to be a good place to start...

I know I have been doing more of that lately. I can see your stressing, I wish I knew what to say, But I dont have answers, I know once when I had had enough of my husand I finally did a plan b of sorts, it made an amazing change.

Mom of 5,
Actually we do go to the same church, just a different service, but he drove to take her to church where she lives (40 min. away) - just to a new church that he picked randomly because she hasn't been going to church. I haven't told him what I said in the message - do you think I should? I don't know when to talk and when to shut up I guess!

Mom of 5,
hahahaha And you sound like you are like me- hard to believe that we would talk! hahahaha

k,,,, you said that in your experience 90% of ws's are not completely remorseful. that statement really caught my curiousity. can you please elaborate on that and maybe give me an example or 2 to show me what you mean? please use no names from this board as starting another war is not my intent in any way. if this subject is to sensative for members of this board in your opinion you are more then welcome to discuss this via e-mail. thanks, pops

p.s. this is pops not fh as the log in is wrong <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

full house:

I've been on this board for a "long time". In general, when confronted with an affair, I only see between 10-20% of the WSs end the affair immediately and start down the path of reconciliation. Most waffle, lie, procrastinate, and fence sit for a while.

Granted that this isn't a pure population statistically, but I would say that the number of spouses who are having an affair and IMMEDIATELY and CORRECTLY end it at discovery are certainly in the minority.

k

I guess that would depend on the type of the affair, such as in my husbands case, he mostly had one night stands and once caught he never went back, but moved on to the next one. I dont know is that actually an affair. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

K,
I am sure your statistics are correct. It seems in my experience that it is definitely an addiction- like a kid who can't stop digging in the cookie jar. But that is why I would think Plan B would work a heck of a lot more than Plan A. Does anyone besides me get sick of dealing with it and sometimes think, Geez, why spend so much energy on someone who doesn't care? But then I realize that I am becoming a different person and changing myself in positive ways, so I guess it can be worth it.

k,,,, isn't that fence sitting part of the "fog"? whether having a one night stand or a long runing affair doesn't seem to matter much. it is the fact of how long a ws realizes the hurt they are causing and changes their ways.

but once out of the fog i would think that the majority of ws's who choose to restore their marriages are completely remorseful.