i havent logged on for quite awhile and do not recognize very many names, hopefully some of you who know my situation are still lurking or maybe the ones i dont know can help. as you know om was ordered cs in my opinion--quite a large sum, i was surprised and pop was pleased. om has made three payments over three months of only half of the order. it has helped alot since this is the first help i have had from him in over two years. we are doing ok in visitations, seems to be working out ok. yet he did file court papers and hired a lawyer and we are going back to court the 24th of july. in the papers he wants joint physical and legal custody, name change, less child support, me to work full time or change jobs and work where he does. these are the major items. he now has stated to me he wishes he hadnt hired a lawyer and talked with me first to try to settle these issues. i feel the cs was so overwhelming that he is grasping at straws to lower it and he thought this would scare me into dropping it. well it scared me, but i had to borrow money to hire my own lawyer, cause i was afraid that if i didnt have councel he would try to take grace away from me. i would have dropped everything, but pop doesnt want me to. i feel that if i came up with a fare cs amount he would drop everything else, but pop feels why should we be fare to him after all the hurt that has come from this. i just want everything to be settled and we can all go on repairing our lives. am i wrong to want to do this, should i stick with what pop feels is right. the om has put his truck up for sale cause he feels he cant afford it anymore, he has lowered the amount he puts into his retirement fund to ease the cs payments. he has asked me to come up with a number i can live with, but pops wants to leave it up to the courts, pops thinks i am feeling sorry for him, i am not but i also dont want his family to think i am out to destroy their lives, i really dont think pop wants to either, i just think he doesnt know what else to do to make it better for himself. i worry about grace--i dont want hardships to be blamed on her--so far she has a huge family that loves her(both sides) and i want it to stay that way since there is no turning back bringing om in her life, i think we need to work on keeping her life as normal and happy as we can. so the question again is --is it wrong for me to want to work with om with the cs issue. or do you think like pops that he is just manipulating me and will still go after the other issues he has brought up in the lawsuit. i hope this makes sense to all of you.
full house

full house,
Your viewpoint sounds reasonable to me...

I think there can't help but be some residual guilt on the part of the Wandering Spouse (you) and some latent feelings of revenge on the part of the betrayed (pops), even when we don't mean to let our emotions get into the situation.

Does the Other Man have children-of-the-marriage? Both you and Pops have been around here long enough to know how many of of BS wives worry, whine, and fuss over how the ch-support effects our lives, our childrens' lives (it really DOES!)... Perhaps if pops thought of that, imagined that one of OUR husbands' was (Godforbid) the OM and how the innocent side of his family could be hurting too (due to ch-s)... maybe he could do more negotiating too???

I'm reaching, just speculating.

I hope you guys find a happy medium, ya know? Chose your battles wisely...

God be with you,
J, in recovery 5 years--woopee!

PS and Always Remember Policy of Joint Agreement!!! BOTH OF YOU!! (finger waggle)

<small>[ June 28, 2003, 03:05 AM: Message edited by: Jenny ]</small>

FullHouse,
I can see where you just want to get enough cs and be on your way, BUT, OM can't tell you to work more or where to work for that matter.

A judge will probably not allow a name change as it wouldn't be in the best interest of the child. OW didn't use our name as she has 4 c's and both our lawyer and hers told her to drop the idea as a judge would probably not allow it being she was married to someone else and oc would feel "different".

I can also see pop's saying "let the courts handel it". We've seen pops' reasons, age being at the top of the list, as to why he wants om to support Grace.

You must POJA and talk honestly about the reason you want to give an amount for cs and be done with it. Be gentle and loving and maybe pops will understand all of your reasons. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

As far as joint custody, I think om will back down. If he hasn't seen Grace regularly he won't have a shot just yet. She's too young.

Best wishes to both of you. I pray you'll find a soloution you both can be at peace with.

Also don't let pops think you feel sorry for om. Maybe he can look at it differently as Jenny said when he sees how high cs also affects om's family. Like US <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . It shouldn't be used as a punishment to om as all his family will be the recipients of that punishment.

love
Debi

full house,
pops and I dont always agree, but this Time I do. I think om is manipulating you, I know I have been there done that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I probably had sucker stamped on my forehead, Om has used ever trick in the book, and sometimes I wish it were left to the courts and not me. Might be because om and I are both very controlling people and butt heads for long periods of time, but om knows I am a softy when it comes to certain matters.

If this were my husband, and we have had the same conversations, He would be saying, why do you feel sorry for him now, he didnt feel sorry the year and a half we paid for every thing, Why should you care what he has to spend, when he never cared what it was costing us.
Why do you feel sorry for him, If it were me you would make me pay every cent you could. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Now these are just some of the sentences that we have said back and forth between my husband and my self. There is much more to this issue, but I cant post, I am afraid it will give to much of om's info online, and will come back to me.
Dont fall for it full house, He is using you and manipulating you, I can promise you if the tables were turned he would take your husband for every penny he could and not give a damn about your children.

I understand your need for peace for grace, but I think if you back down now, He will have you where he wants you from now on. I wish I could explain this better, I am not able to, please listen to pops on this one.

<small>[ June 29, 2003, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

full house, I am kind of in the same situation that you are in. I am not sure if you've read previous posts of mine but I have twins with the OM. I have been having my own inner battle with this very thing. The OM was really awful to me throughout the pregnancy and all the way up till he told his W. which was about when the babies were 4 months old. I had filed to get support through the state, he got a lawyer...I am sure the lawyer told him basically what he would have to pay etc. But we started to try to work out an agreement. He offered me X amount saying this is what he could afford. He wasn't very good at paying in the begining, but now I think he has it automatically taken out of his paycheck and deposited into mine! What a relief so I don't have to worry if he is sending the whole thing...or worse yet sending something. I have only received one automatic deposit so far so I am crossing my fingers that it continues to work out. Maybe you should try to settle on a lower amount if he gets it automatically deposited. If he stops it say you will take him back to court. He is also suppose to give me a cost of living increase every year, and X amount for school supplies and clothes when they start school. But my H has medical/dental on them, and we are to pay all of it. He isn't going to pay any part of child care etc. Sometimes I feel maybe I should have gotten more for the kids, but what we get does help. We have 5 kids now, OM has 1. But I am content with the agreement as long as he holds up to it and holds up to keeping in contact with them. I know it has been a relief on the OM and his family knowing that they can meet these obligations. Well, except for the W knowing he is having contact with the babies.
I would talk with pops and write down the expenses and see if you can come up with a friendlier number. Maybe OM would be forth coming in what they can afford.
I feel like I have the upper hand. I don't feel taken. I feel like I could take him to court and get more any time I want. But I prefer knowing that the OM is helping financially but not having his family struggle either. The OM and I did wrong by both of our families, I would hate to see either of our families stuggle to the point every day living was uncomfortable. I just hope that in the long run this was the best decision. That if the twins want/need something extra that the OM will be willing to help like he said he would.
I hope you and pops will be able to come to an understanding. My heart goes out to you.

If OM had gotten what he wanted after he hired his attorney and took you to court, do you think that he would right now be regretting his decision? I think you know the answer to that question. The fact is that his tactic blew up in his face and now wants you to feel sorry for his family, well I hate to break it to him but it was HIS choice to go this route that brought any hardships to his W and family, NOT YOU. My opinion is with pops and let the courts decide.

thanks for your replies, making the right decisions is soooo hard. I guess after talking with pops I can see his point, I will wait after the court date to see what the results are before making any decisions, he feels if i make a bargain before the court date somehow i will eventually get screwed (no pun here)(sorry bad taste in humor) by om. I can always deal with him after the fact. I guess I do have to worry about grace and my family first, but it is graces other half of her family and i dont want to put any more stress than what is already there if i can help it. and this is not for om--but for grace and her other brother and sisters. She is pretty lucky to have such a large family all whom love her--5 brothers and 5 sisters, boy is she gonna be spoiled...she is such a great little girl, i could gush all day...make you all want to puke...sorry. Anyway I will wait and be patient, it just makes me nervous, even though I cant imagine him getting his way, but you never know what the judge will decide.
It was so nice to see gemini and mof5 here again, i wasnt sure if you were still around thanks for taking the time to give me your opinions. mof5 sounds like there is alot of conflict or problems you are still dealing with, if you would like to share or talk or give me more advice in private i would be glad to give you a email address you can contact me at. let me know
full house---by the way all this stress has added 15pounds to me--guess this body isnt seeing any sun this summer unless i straighten myself out--

You sound so much like me it is scary.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I understand all your concerns and have had many of the same, exept, om and his wife have no children together, and the children they do have are my age or older than me.

It has taken me along time to see things the way I do now, and I have a long way to go. I try not to let om manipulate me any more, and I am stronger than I was 2 years ago. Although he still trys on a weekly sometimes daily basis.

would love to talk to you as i have a few questions that I dont think should be on the board.

FH,

I will chime in as well. IF you have Grace's best interests at heart (and I know you do) you will do Wha the courts tell you to do. OM may have really messed up with a lot of this, because if it is felt by the court that he is not to be trusted with Grace, he may lose visitation as well as have to pay CS.

Now I do know some of Pops reasons for seeking CS, his age is one. The other is his health. You two have many children to look after and Grace for even longer. The odds suggest that you need to be taking some of the CS and putting it aside for Grace's education or support later.

By the way, it is illegal in some state and I think Ca for the parent to try and give away what is deemed rightfully the childs. The CS is for GRACE, you should not be giving it away.

As for OM, well he hasn't exactly made a case for his sensitivity to children or his spouse. He has made convincing case that he is a liar and a cheat. If he couldn't afford another child he should have kept it zipped or used a condom. He did neither. Now there is a human being on this planet that needs alot of love and care. You can supply the love along with your family, but the care takes money.

Don't even think about giving away what is actually Grace's.

God Bless,

JL

PS: If OM feels the CS is too high, let him start a political movement to get the guidlines lowered. Many will join him. But neither you nor he can or should go against the law. The law says YOUR daughter is owed this money.

ok, maybe I don't know the whole story here but after reading the posts above I can't believe how hypocritical people are. Saying that the OM should have kept it in his pants or worn a condom or is a liar and a cheat? What is SHE?? Innocent?? Shouldn't she have kept her legs together or used protection herself, didn't she lie to her H and cheat? I think that you should try to be fair to BOTH sides. Don't strap the FAMILY of the OM and don't strap yourselves either. The courts or yourselves should be able to have some kind of arrangement that will benefit BOTH families and GRACE. How many times has this board ripped apart the OW for getting pregnant and hurting our families(myself included)! It takes two to $UCK. I still believe that birth control is the Woman's responsibility, so I have NO sympathy for her getting pregnant but that CS should be from both parties involved. AGAIN, I don't think I know that whole story here so if this is out of line, I apologize and I feel for Pops, but remember that the family of the OM, Pops and ALL the children were all innocent! Her and the OM are the ones who were in the wrong here and THEY together should do their best to see that the innocent victims in this mess pay or suffer as little as possible for what they choose to do. Just my 2 cents. You can rip into me if you choose!

If your having a bad day I am sorry, But yes I do think your out of line.
Your right it takes two to tango, which is why from day one, I took full responsibility for my child and pops and full house have done the same. .
we also know men lie to get out of paying child support, happens all the time, on a daily basis all over america.. So while this woman is doing her part, he only wants to do a small share of his part... Other children or not. He has a responsibility to help. And he is not meeting that responsibility.

By the way I dont think she asked you to feel sorry for her. Why would we feel sorry for ourselves, this is not rocket science, we had an affair, got pregnant and now have another child to raise. I for one, think my daughter is the most adorable baby on the face of the earth.. I am crazy about her, no need for me to want someone to feel sorry for me, and I would bet full house feels the same. But full house has a responsibility to make sure grace gets whats due her and the courts decided that amount.

whoops--this is full house speaking not pops--i forgot to log in,
but yeah, someone must be having a reallly bad bitter day, if you look up our history, i never wanted any help from om and i took responsibility for everything i have done, and guess what i have two children with pops that we got pregnant using birth control, so it doesnt always guarantee no pregnancy--we love all 8 of our children very much no matter the planning or circumstances.

m of 5---here is my email address--


email me anytime

<small>[ June 30, 2003, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

GOT IT, YOU CAN ERASE NOW

Again, I apologize if I'm missing or missed the big picture from your previous posts. If I hurt you or your friend's recovery or feelings I am sorry. I was just simply saying that this board has ripped the OW apart time and again for getting pregnant but you WERE the OW too and it seemed to me like you were blaming the OM for what happened, again maybe you took responsibility for yourself in another post long ago. I TOTALLY agree that men try to get out of paying support for a lot of children (NOT just OC) and its wrong! Its also wrong of a woman (and I'm NOT saying this about you 2) to try to take every bleeding penny from a man to pay for a child he NEVER wanted. Try to put yourselves into the BW role of your OM, would you be happy, first to find your H cheating on you and THEN to know that your family is going to have pay for the next X amount of years for X amount of dollars, that could have gone to a house, car or college education for your OWN child? H$LL NO!!! You would NOT be happy about that! Is it fair that your BH have to pay financially and emotionally for your A? NO! I'm saying that it should be an EQUAL share of burden financially, at least, from BOTH sides of the fence. Emotionally the WOMEN pay so much more (BOTH W and OW) because that is our nature, being a mother is a gift! I have NO doubt you love your children, EVERY mother thinks their child is the most beautiful creature ever created, myself included, which is again why its up to the WOMEN to protect themselves and THINK about the future before spreading their legs open because it is HARDER for us as WOMEN to leave our offspring. Sometimes even the COURTS are basis to the mother or to the father and my point is......weather its court declared or not it should be equal to what BOTH parties can live with financially to provide that child with the life its deserves. I don't doubt my OW loves her child but did she THINK about the future that child would have with a father who NEVER wanted her and denies she even exists when the OW bent over for him and said don't worry about protection, that was her 110%! I blame my UH 110% for having the A and I blame her 110% for getting pregnant to trap him!

Hindsight is 20/20, but doesn't really help now because what's done is done and why should pops and their other children pay for the big doosie?

I don't know if there is a way to divide the responsibility equally? Especially with so many innocent people dragged into the drama...

The only "fair" thing to do is what is right for the OC without doing further damage to your own marriage, fh.

I think if you set the priorities in line with God being #1, your spouse & your marriage being close second, your kids being next, THEN OM, you will make right decisions with the greatest ease...

<small>[ June 30, 2003, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

I can see why you are angry, I just think it could have been put a little more delicately, but since you dont want to , I dont think any one was blaming the other person for having a baby, and our post go back a long ways so I would guess it would be hard to understand. I dont know all of full houses details but will share a little of mine with you.
Long term affair, om , said he had a vasectomy, turns out he lied and new he could get me pregnant, I didnt worry because of that, and his age.. all though I can say what a fool I am now.... I agree I could have prevented that and didnt. so It was my fault for listening and believing him. Did I keep the baby to trap him, hell know, I kept the baby because I was taking responsibility for creating her and she deserved a chance at life.

I didnt get pregnant on purpose, and i am sure some women do. But when all the crying got done, I had to face facts and become a new parent once again, I didnt force him to be involved, he came on his own. Didnt even ask him if he wanted to be involved, merely told him, she would be told who her father was and he could either accept it, or go away.
I can take it or leave it. but if he is going to be involved, I think he should try and do the very best he can.

Of course I would not want my money going to a child I didnt want, but if my husband did this, we would have to make that sacrifice. I am not sure what to tell you, It is a price mine would have to pay if his vasectomy had failed and he got someone pregnant. It is up to a man and woman to protect them selves. after all pregnancy isnt the only fear we should have.

women are responsible for their bodies as are men, and together they make babies, I would say, that is equal. A debate that will last through time.

Take every bleeding penny, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I guess for me this doesnt apply. Because we recieve not even two percent of his paycheck, he has plenty and is doing quite well. In fact my husband and my self provide all her basic needs and then some, My husband provides insurance, to save om money. WE did not take him to court, although probably should.

I think your getting angry over your situation, but fullhouses and mine is not like yours. very different.
She was only speaking of her self. and yes ow are frequently raked over the coals on this SITE, believe me, I have been. Doesnt change who we are, just people who made some bad choices, as did your wayward spouse. However if we are talking of equal, then in most , but not all. the mother of the child is doing more than her share with these children. Yes some of these people may be paying cs, but most[not all] do not help with the child in any way what so ever, so in that respect. The mother is fully taking responsibility for her child. That two people created. Cause you see with out sperm, there would be NO BABY. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

OK, Let's all calm down and not start a war here!

Fullhouse,

I haven't replied before now, cause I really don't have any advice other than what's already been said by others before me. Personally, I feel that if xOM had been willing to work w/you and pops on the CS/visitation, he would be doing a lot better! He chose the route he took, and it's his own fault if he needs to sell the truck(or whatever). I can understand why Pops is so adament on the CS, just look at what's happened recently w/his health(which by the way how is he doing?) You need to have that for Grace, especially if something(heaven forbid!!!!) does happen! I, personally, as you and many others know, chose the NC/no CS route, as we are still fairly young, and it was the best for us! Heck, Sailorman will be 49 when Abbi is 18, and from what I remember, that's a huge difference than what pops is looking at! I agree that you went for the CS, and everyone's situation is very unique to them! Go to court, the judge will most likely laugh at xOM's demands that you get another job! As for the joint custody and stuff, I have no experience with that, so have nothing to offer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Sorry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

tinml,

Well, yes the OW has been ripped apart here, but many of those times, the BW has had proof that the OW got P on purpose, or was using the OC to stay connected to the WH! Fullhouse and Pops have been working for over a year to repair their M, and doing pretty good too. Because we have chosen different roads, I have not had much "board contact" but support and see the sense in their decissions. If you would go back and read when Grace was born, and all the things that they BOTH went through, you would see how far they have come! You would also see the guilt that Fullhouse has gone through, and her repentance as well! In fact, it was Pops who pushed for CS, and not Fullhouse(not that you should start attacking pops, as he's also been through similar situation w/CS himself, not as WH, but before they were M'd) So, in this situation, they have seen just about all sides of this "coin"(so to speak). xOM in this situation has NOT taken responsibility, which is why the CS ended up being so high! If he had been willing to work w/Fullhouse and Pops on this, it would be a lot better! xOM made rediculous claims/demands, and it ended up costing him. He is continuing to do so, and it will only backfire as it did before! So, before you start making the statements such as "Shouldn't she have kept her legs together or used protection herself, didn't she lie to her H and cheat?" and "It takes two to $UCK." find out more about the poster, especially when they've been around for a while! She's paid her price, has asked those who count for forgiveness, and is doing the best she can! She is rebuilding her M w/Pops, and has come here for advice and support, not to be torn apart. She is here as a WW, and as such needs help in repairing the damage she caused. Not to be torn down as the OW!

Ok, enough from me, but just play nice, please! This thread has good potential from all sides, as long as pot shots are not taken.

Tigger

full house ~from what I gathered from your posts is that you and pops made a good decision. I might be wrong on this but the OM is the one that made steps to take this through the court...so therefore you had to hire a lawyer. Then he is just getting what he asked for. In my case the OM got a lawyer and I just consulted with one so I hadn't put out any money yet. In my case my H had a child before we met. Once I was with him we went to court and it was a 2 year ordeal that got nowhere. So I guess that is one reason I was so willing to work with OM and stay out of the court system this time. So I know the stress you are going through. You hear cases where the man is granted some outrageous thing he was seeking, and he just wants joint custody so he doesn't have to pay child support or it will be lowered a lot. But if your OM hasn't been involved consistently I don't think he has a leg to stand on. But all the unknown can sure put a lot of stress on a person. I will pray for you. I have read a lot of pops messages and I think he is a great "poster" so I am sure that just reflects what kind of person he really is. Reading what you have to say I think you must be equally as caring and the both of you will do what is best. I hope you both will continue to be a part of this board because being a newby I am sure there will be times I need support/advice!

I guess I went over the line and deserve a little bashing but this is what I was refering to:

"As for OM, well he hasn't exactly made a case for his sensitivity to children or his spouse. He has made convincing case that he is a liar and a cheat. If he couldn't afford another child he should have kept it zipped or used a condom. He did neither. Now there is a human being on this planet that needs alot of love and care. You can supply the love along with your family, but the care takes money."

Maybe I should have directed my comment towards JL and not the thread in general. My point is still not being heard and with the way things are going it probably won't be heard. I don't KNOW you or Pops and I KNOW nothing about his health problems(sorry to hear he is sick?)! I guess I was taking it out on you like you were my OW who called my UH last week and he refused her call at work. SO maybe I'm a little sensitive today. I want ALL children OC or not to have as happy and healthy of life as possible, with or with out contact with a parent. It does take sperm to make a baby but WHO'S decision is it on what to do AFTER conception......the WOMAN's, so we need to be held more accountable for the birth control issue! I'm Pro-Choice but I do NOT think that a woman should just spread her legs with out thinking about the consquences of what may happen. And YES, a MAN should too but lets face it ladies, were just the more resposible of the sexes! We are the creators and givers of LIFE! No man has ever felt a baby inside him and known what its like to feel so connected to another human being. I could get sperm anyday of the week, if I choose to but it is VERY unlikely that a man could get an egg and even if he did, what would he do with it? I am sorry that you were "tricked" into getting pregnant or thinking it was ok to not use protection by your OM. Your OM is a ^ucking scum for doing that to you. I need to just go away now and not post anymore. Best of Luck to you all!!!

boy it is nice to see all the old names pop up here. i hope you are all doing as well as fh and i. we still have some potholes in our road as you have seen here but look out as the slurry truck is rolling down the street. and to 4 tori&natesake, welcome and i hope this place can be as much help to you as it has been to us.

i didn't want to post on this thread. in our talks on her question she stated that she wished she had an unbiased person to talk to about it. so i suggested she post here. i am so glad she did because she was kind of avoiding this site because she felt attacked so often. thank you all for the warm and considerate responses no matter which side of the fence you sit on.

thisisnotmylife,,,,,, your posts prodded me into responding. i am sorry for the anger that you are still holding toward your h A. i see it in your posts as i see it in my old posts. some of that will stay with you forever as these things reek of hypocritism. whether you reconcile with your h or not i hope you find a place of peace for yourself in all this. i must say that fh does not and i do not blame the om solely for the A. they both had an equal part in the wrong doings. i could however find more fault in him as i believe that a man should be shot for interfereing with someone elses marriage. men should have more respect then that for men. (sorry to all if this sounds sexest). sort of like shotting a horse thief. but let me ask you this in all fairness. do you think fh's om intends to reimburse us for the money our family has lost for the past 2 1/2 years from my lost work while in turmoil over her A, her lost work for the 1 1/2 years she didn't work when grace was born, or the difference in the money lost as she changed employers to a job that does not pay as well? and what about all the costs and time spent tending to grace's needs when she was sick and the cost of mc when we couldn't afford it? if you add it all up it is in the tens of thousands of $ in the short 2 1/2 year time span of this. now i have given my reasons along time ago for fh seeking cs so i won't bore anyone by repeating them but the last question is, since om had no interest in grace until $ became an issue and he didn't care one iota about my finaces during any of this why should i care about his? it's simple to me every thing above the table and let the people who have much more expertise then us here set the guidelines. and hell if it were about $ i would encourage fh to have an A with my cardiologist.

<small>[ June 30, 2003, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>