You came here with real concern about your boys WHO KNEW their DAD and LIVED with him throughout the marriage....

He seemed to have for all intents and purposes abandoned them.

You are in a quandry and came to us...your old friends to let us know.

What do you get?

Issues of abandonment from the feisty OW who have taken over this board.

cd, I remember how hard you tried to include oc in your lives. I remember how at every turn there was disappointment.

I remember saying "if cd could do it why can't we?"

I remember being cursed with many of the same jealous ow problems you were cursed with.

I remember telling my H "This will never work out, look at what my friend is going through with her H"

I remember my H calling it quits with me as at every turn we encountered chaos.

You didn't call it quits. Your H did.

With you. With ow. With oc.

Now with the boys!

I think he has severe depression at all the changes in his life he's encountered due to his own hand.

You finally left and are becoming successful. He had a loving woman all along he didn't recognize or appreciate.

God is working in your life cd.

Your new guy sounds like a saint.

A man will recognize a good woman when he sees one. New guy has seen that in you.

For someone to come here and turn this into a circus over why the om/mm left their child or why the heck it is such a hard situation is absurd!

It's totally abnormal to expect a married couple to accept this grave mistake as if it were as normal as apple pie!!!

It is not!

To make anyone of the BS feel as if it were THEIR fault WS came home and protected them from further involvement with the product of the affair that threw most of them into feelings of a Vietnam Vets with nightmares that last a lifetime is incredulous to say the least!

cd was talking of her XH, not XOM/MM...

Can you console her without bias?

If not, leave your thoughts to yourselves.

cd, if I'm out of line....let me know.

BTW, new guy sounds as if he's made of the right stuff....no sneaking or affair...you are up front with him and he seems to appreciate you.

Nuff said.

Blessings to you and the boys. Prayers of peace sent tonight!
love
Debi

Can any of us console eachother without bias? I think not. Not you nor I. We are who we are because of what we've lived. Its that simple gemini.
I'm biased because I see my xMM/OM for the selfish creep he was and still is. Its all about him. Just like you BS's think the OW is all about herself. Its just your view from your seat in life.

So from my seat..and from the values I have carried with me my whole life, those same values that I tucked away when I had my affair, comes my opinion that any man who abandons any child of his is a CREEP of little character or interity. Why are you so insulted by that? Why are you making a big deal about it? We're talking about a father who in this case abandoned his children. Its not okay. Not now and not ever. Not in this instance and not in any other instance.
We know we'll never see this thing with the same pov so why bother to try? I don't try anymore.
My husband happens to feel the same way that I do, btw. And he's the BS. Imagine. So, its not just us OW who feel this way.
We are all entitled to see what her xH did as we do, and in line with the cowardly manner he handled his children, so too, I see all the other cowards out there. Spineless little men living in a big mans body.

The issue of Abandonment-- (point brought up by us feisty OW *AND WS lets not forget dear gemini)
---is a serious problem for those who suffer from it. The issue is TOTALLY APPLICABLE TO WHAT HAPPENED TO CDCOLLINS KIDS. Totally. To imply that it is not an issue is self centered and self serving. I can see that someone who has supported your beliefs must deny it, but it is a real emotional wound that these children are potentially subject to in light of their fathers recent behavior. Abandonment=rejection

To down play it is a mistake. I get a real sense that you don't like the term abandonment. I understand why. I wouldn't like it either if I were you. Children who are shunned by a parent understand what it means and what it does to the human spirit.

Lets not pretend what her xH did and what all these men have done is okay. Its not. Plain and simple. Its an adult make me feel good antedote at the expense of a child. You can slice it up any which you want to, its all the same. Abandonment of children. Never a good thing Gemini. Period.

For someone to come here and turn this into a circus over why the om/mm left their child or why the heck it is such a hard situation is absurd!

I dont think any one means for it to be a circus. I think it is sad when any father leaves his child, as mothers how can we not cry over such a loss to our children. and nobody left my child, she has two dads, who she sees or talks to every day.
CM did not have any one leave her child, she dumped him. and her child has a father. One who is not biologicaly his, but a father that will not run out on his son.
and friend of k is an oc, who by the way is taking a child of people who didnt want one. So that statement doesnt make sense.

But I can hear this pain in many mothers who the father has left the child they created with whomever. Fact remains it is a sad way of life in this and many countries. I feel for cd's children just Like I feel for all the children who dont have a dad. Married or not, doesnt have squat to do with it.

what I dont get is why we have so many views, after all as parents and mothers, shouldnt we want all children to have a father... is it somehow worse for a child of an married mother to lose his father, than it is for a child of a woman they are not married to.
aside from all the mess of an affair, right , wrong, it is still very sad. But I notice when a woman comes here because a man doesnt want to be in his childs life, they are told how to go on, how it is better that she just count her losses and go, after all she shouldnt have brought a child into this world.

I just dont see a difference.

<small>[ July 08, 2003, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

....and I still say he's a donkey!!!!

CMiranda and mof5,

You're SO right. It's all mens' fault!! ALL XOM are immature. Heck, their wives, too!! They're all alike, aren't they?! Everyone is SOOOO reasonable except those assh*oles who abandon kids!

I guess in your world-view, there are no exceptions, no extenuating circumstances, no different point of view, no difficult (or insane) custodial mothers(!), no difficult laws, no marital needs, no burn-out, no distances, etc.... and be-d*mned principles for saving marriages!

OBVIOUSLY I should put up with LOTS more CR*P from XOW: H and I should continue sending things to OC so we can continue to receive XOW's insults and pictures of places she and H screwed years ago, all in the name of "not abandoning" the OC who lives in another country, right??

It'd be so much healthier for OC???

Thanks for setting me straight.
J.

Jenny,

Is this the twilight zone?!!!

You missed the whole point.

On this thread, we're replying to what gemini posted. It is in reply to her, not you. Its not about you, remember? Do not presume to know what I'm thinking.

Funny how you and others can dish out all kinds of negativity and hate toward your husbands ex-other women and that is okay. Would you challenge his pov if he did the same? NO, I think not. YET, when us former WS's bash the MM/OM in the slightest way, you have a hissy fit.

The man who abandons his children and those who support him, in my opinion, are simply acting out of their own fear. Plain and simple.

<small>[ July 09, 2003, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

When you make BLANKET STATEMENTS like

"...any man who abandons any child..."

you're NOT just replying to Gemini and you know it.

I regret feeding into your nastiness, but I'm not going to just leave gemini out to dry, either.

You have NO IDEA what my H and I feel. You appoint yourself judge, jury and executioner every time, 0 facts. Good thing we don't live in your world....

ENOUGH!!!

Personal attacks against members of this forum will not be tolerated.

This is a SUPPORT FORUM. If you can't offer supportive suggestions and advice for the poster, without attacking, please refrain from posting.

Hugs to CD. Sorry it DID turn into yet another circus.

Amazing isn't it. And then people wonder why the board just isn't the same. Remember when ...

Ah those were the days.

Honey you are a class act who has finally found another class act guy to step up to the plate. For that I am thrilled.

We love you lots and it was good to see your name. I just wish it was with better news.

Love,
Z.

OH and Jenny, Obratti1 and my dear friend Gem, good to see you guys!

Z.

Hey guys. The weather prevented me from coming back to read the thread. Storms like you can't believe around here.

Jenny, as a person who understood where I was coming from, my sincere thanks.
As long as most of the women here have a dad for their children, I didn't see why the unspoken "bio-dad" came into play. It was disguised as "WS", but really WAS a jab at bio-dads in general.

Everyone here as husband and wife have made different choices regarding their situations.

cd's situation with her boys is very sad to say the very least. However her husband and her were married at the time of their births and the boys KNEW their dad from day one.

There IS a difference.

Though the marriage is now gone cd's husband still was continuing his roll as dad and for some yet-to-be-explained reason, was not there for his scheduled visit.

To include her XH in the roll of a WS/OC relationship was wrong in my opinion.
That was the point I was trying to make.

Zebrababy, thankyou too.
The boards are not the same. I'm sometimes hesitant to reply to newcomers.
I all to well remember my first weeks here.

Although my feelings have changed on my point of view from a newbie position, I would never tell a newbie what they are feeling is un-christian like. That they somehow must supress the agony they are going through.

This is a special problem for usually four adults. All married.

Applying the Harleys principals until the parties have somewhat healed is a very helpful thing in helping each other heal.

To have a newbie without contact read any man "abandoning" his flesh is insightful. It is ALWAYS an OW statement.

We pay CS. We pay health insurance. We wish no harm to oc. It's NC for us and has helped us become closer than we were. Dr. Harley counseled us. He took the facts of our situation and came up with helpful suggestions on how to continue our marriage.

Oc in our situation has a dad in ow's H.

All I wanted to say is there is a huge difference on walking out on children who have lived with you their entire lives....compared to never knowing or wanting another womans child but paying for that unfortunate set of circumstances being the only thing to do to make your lives whole again. Period.

So Jenny and Zebrababy, hello and gratitude for coming to my rescue.

Justuss, this IS marriagebuilders. All who answered in my defense are practicing what is written here.

We get weary sometimes of the generalizations made in reference to NC.
Really it's what Dr. Harley recommends to fully recover.
For anyone to include hurtful statements about a WS leaving OC in comparison to cd's situation is flat out wrong.
Two different things!

love
Debi

Hear Hear,

I've been refraining, cause I didn't have anything nice to say and you all have put into words what I couldn't!!!! And, it IS so good to see some of the oldies, even if it is just for a little while <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hope to see more of you all!!!

Love,

Tigger

Cd, I posted on your thread, but thought I would add to Justuss
"If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all", THUMPER,

Life goes on. You will be better without him.
For all the "slings and arrows" you have found here there are more people who will give you hugs and support.
please come back again.

Texasgirl

gemini,

As long as we're worrying about generalizations, let me clear up one that you just made ...

you wrote:
>It is ALWAYS an OW statement.

"ALWAYS"? That too is an incorrect generalization.

Yes, I replied on the other thread ... in response to TMD in particular. But "ALWAYS" is still another incorrect generalization. *I* am not an OW. I am not a WS. I have never had an affair of any type. I am a W. I am about to be a mother. And I was born as an OC (I'm sure you know my story). So "ALWAYS" is yet another incorrect generalization.

Perhaps I should change that statement to:

It is always an OW and OC statement.

Better now friendofk?

Debi

Actually, I still think it's another one of those inaccurate, blanket statements. My hubby agrees with my response to TMD. Heck, he was here at the computer with me the other night. And he's neither OM nor WS nor OC. At all. So the statement still doesn't hold.

OCs are *NOT* OWs. We are just as innocent as the BSs, have done absolutely *nothing* wrong with regards to the affair, and we have every right to our own opinions as well ... like every other upstanding member of society.

editing to add (before yet another caveat to include spouses of OCs is added) ...

My point being that you dislike blanket generalizations, yet you make them yourself. (eg. "It is ALWAYS an OW statement.").

<small>[ July 09, 2003, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: friendofk ]</small>

Blanket statement?

No way.

The only women here who use such statements about abandonment of their children are OW.

BS never say it.

WS don't say it.

I guess if the blanket covers you, well then wear it.
Guess it hurts when a married man leaves after creating a child with his ow and goes back home to his wife. I never have done that but I guess it is painful.
I've been on the other unknowing side though.

I can tell you that N/C is a decision not taken lightly.

It is at the time it is made, a whirlwind of emotions between the WS, BS, OP.

Your parents broke vows and married each other regardless of their spouses, right?

If it should happen to you, I want to see you here spouting the rights of ow/oc, ok? Because only then will you have the right.

BTW friendofk....why do you come here?
Your marriage is great. Your H comes to the computer with you.

Do you still have oc issues?

I just don't get you and will quit responding to you.
Your message isn't welcome here.

Debi

gemini you wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTW friendofk....why do you come here? I just don't get you and will quit responding to you. Your message isn't welcome here.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i didn't really want to get into this "discussion", but had to call you on this one. sorry.

here're a few other quotes from the intro to the pregnancy/child forum and the "general welcome to all new builders" portion of this site:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you are building or rebuilding your marriage or if you want to provide support to others in building or rebuilding their marriages, then you are welcome here.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(bold is mine)
and
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We do not always agree with each other on how to handle situations... but each of us is offering to you advice based on individual experiences</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">what friendofk has to say might be very helpful for a new member who is trying to make a decision about contact vs nc. she can offer advice from the pov of an oc. that's what this forum is for!

your situation is different and is what was best for you. so fine. like you said, don't respond if you don't agree. but please don't tell people that they're not welcome here.

let's all try to play nice...

amy

gemini,

Am I not a fWS? Indeed, I am. Are all ow single women when they have an affair? Nope. Many are WS's too.
To help you understand how this works, when a WS is involved with another WS, they become either an OM or OW. In fact, the two can be one of the same.

Gemini, WS do speak about abandonment. Yup, indeed we do. Abandonment of any children I think is what I wrote about in my very first post on cdc's thread.

You know, gemini, you can't speak for anyone but yourself. Not even your husband.

cm

"fWS and fOW" Not only xOW!

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>