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#821767 07/08/03 08:13 PM
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It is SO very frustrating to see the board get like this!!!! This board is for support, not bickering! I would love to see the principles of this site be discussed as they used to! Many times, it is asked to not make blanket statements. I agree, as with this latest, I feel the bite of it personally! Why, because of the statement that anyone, male or female, who "abandons" a child is slime! I say it hurts me cause I have given a child up for adoption, and have had NO contact with her whatsoever! So according to the above statement, I'm slime!!! But what about the other favorite for some, "What about the child"!!! If I had kept that baby, I know, yes I know, that I would not have made it to where I am today!!!! I was working at barely over minimum wage, not enough to rent an apartment and buy food, let alone diapers, babysitters, vehicle, carseat...... I could have been on state aid, but I gave her a life that I couldn't! She will be 16 this year, and in 2 years, if she had the need, she can contact us! I know I gave her to a good family because of the financial and emotional burden the family had already gone through to get to the point of when I made my decision!

In this latest bout of bickering back and forth we have lost sight of what a dear member came here for, and that was the support of her MB family through this hard and trying time. Just a little refresher, CDCollins HAD been working to incorporate the OC into their family life! She had actually bonded w/this child when the OW started to scare the OC into shying away, and finally totally afraid of CD! The visitation stopped, not because of CD, but her H! What she went through before her D was one of the scariest things I've ever seen a friend go through! So, before you say, "Be careful what you wish for" and "If he could leave her and her child(ren), he could leave you and yours" think of what you are really saying! Out of the many posters on this board, there are many who are 3+ yrs into recovery and doing just fine!

Let's get back to what this board is about, and work on the support and help and principles provided here!

K, I'm done now.

Tigger

#821768 07/08/03 08:39 PM
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tigger,

You are the furthest thing from "slime"!!! What you did for your baby was an honorable sacrifice on your part, and that girl benefits from it every day. God bless you for having the courage to give both her life AND a better future.

There are times when further involvement is not in a child's best interests.

Those blanket statements are very destructive to the board.

Friends,
J. (also an adoptive parent)

#821769 07/08/03 09:13 PM
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(((( Tigger ))))

I am an adoptive mom of 2 siblings.

I appreciate your pain. That cruel comment had "bite" for me as well, and I was/am not the intended "target".

The mentioned comment NOT intended to heal.

I feel ashamed of sister women sometimes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

#821770 07/08/03 10:23 PM
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I am just going to chime in a little here, because I have experienced a little bit of annoyance this week with the boards too- when people have told me that I should just be 26 and single forever, waiting for my husband to come back.....When I read blanket statements about how this is ALWAYS true or NEVER true....I feel like asking that person -
"Who died and made you God?"
Unless you have stepped in the EXACT shoes of someone, you have no idea what you would do in the situation. And even if you think something is ALWAYS wrong, you can still have compassion for the person, instead of throwing judgmental opinions at the person. I don't understand people who make others feel even worse than they already do- there is such a thing as constructive criticism, which is to better the person, but shoving ones beliefs down another's throat is not going to help anything.
And by the way, while I don't feel a child should ever be abandoned, I also didn't think that I as a wife should have been abandoned.....but I was. If a child is to NEVER be abandoned, does that mean that I should have just stepped back and ended the marriage so that the child could have 2 parents who are both in a fog and who have no idea how to raise a child? IMHO, the best thing that could happen for OC in my now former situation would have been adoption- there are millions of couples out there who actually WANT a child and can love and provide for that child.

<small>[ July 08, 2003, 11:26 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]</small>

#821771 07/08/03 10:34 PM
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Tigger,
Please know you did the best for your daughter. It takes a strong person to look beyond themselves for the well-being of another.

In my last post I explained why I rarely post anymore. I do on occasion b/c I do feel a connection with several people here, and also welcome alot of the advice of certain people. But I hesitated so much in posting again b/c of what has been transpiring here. See, my H "abandoned" his son. Yes we pay support, but he has no contact. I do not defend, influence or judge his decision. And I feel hurt when people pass judgement on him. When I seek support here it is for me and my issues, not to reevaluate any past choices of his.

I agree that this board has lost sight of the principles, which I cautiously add I do not agree with some and don't incorporate into my life on a daily basis...(hmmm,could that be why I am still so stuck?!)

Anyway, I wanted to say that I admire you, and agree with your assessment as to what needs to be changed here...

Maybe peole could stop love-busting here. It sure couldn't hurt.

Just my unsolicited honest opinion...for what it is worth...I am back to lurking now...

NGU

<small>[ July 08, 2003, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: Not Giving Up ]</small>

#821772 07/09/03 10:14 AM
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Ladies,

I’ve been a lurker out here for quite a while. I have seen some of the changes that you have mentioned on this board. They have not been all bad. There a mix of people here who offer insight into their lives. I find that very helpful. I value the posts written by female ws’s.
You see my wife had a 4 year affair that resulted in an oc. I’m raising her as my own.
I have a lot of the same feelings toward om as those that have been expressed in recent days. Frankly he got off easy. He is a self serving covard if you ask me. Like JL has said in another post he should have kept it zipped or worn a condom if he didn’t’ want to become a father again. He already had 4 kids. He knows how to make em.
Ya’ll are getting just as feisty as you say the posters are that you don’t agee with. You are offended or they are are offended by what you sometimes write about. It is the nature of these things.
I saw the post in question on cd's thread. I wasn't at all offended.
Bottom line seems to be people have their own opinions. I don’t think what was said was meant to be as bad as you took it. By starting this kind of post you are contributing to the board being as it is today. Combative.

#821773 07/09/03 11:05 PM
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OK, I'll admit to a bias.

Tigger is one of my favorites here. When it comes to the issues that this particular section of MB is concerned with she has been on all but one of the sides of these issues. She knows herself, her H, and her stuff. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My point is there are more than two sides to many of these issues. Couple this with the fact that NO ONE runs their lives like I/we would run it for them, and one is led to the conclusion that this board is for advice not condemnation.

I was raised in the military and one of things people are taught is that while the decision is under discussion all parties can contribute. But, once the decision has been made all parties are expected to follow it. It seems to me that we must accept decisions that have already been made, but recognize when people are asking for advice and respond in kind.

Here I think that empathy is often over utilized while it is under utilized. It is common for all of us to empathize with the person or persons that are in the role we might have been in. That person may not be the one asking for advice here.

It seems to me that we need to reflect on the possibility that ALL parties are hurt when these situations come up and that empathy of each of their situations should be considered before ADVICE is offered. Not just the person whose position we understand.

Hopefully, this particular board can come back to a place where people can offer advice, offer another person insight into how the other person in a situation might feel and respond to different actions.

Just recall this is a MARRIAGE BUILDING site, not a cure all social ills site.

OK, off of my soap box now. I apologize for appearing to lecture, but it seems to me this particular site requires more sensitivity than just about any other portion of MB because of the devastating aspects of its subject material. I do hope that all treat it with the care that it requires.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Sorry Tigger for climbing on my soapbox in your thread, but I thought your comments did address something that is happening here. This particular site seems to lose more people than most and it is one that should benefit from the presence of many poeple and points of view.

#821774 07/09/03 11:29 PM
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JL,

I'm honored that I'm "one of your favorites"! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> And don't worry about your soapboxing, cause I tend to do it too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You are one of my favorites as well, with much to offer, being on the outside looking in!

God Bless,

Tigger

#821775 07/09/03 11:32 PM
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Amen and Amen Tig!

Geeze Louise, I can't believe the bickering, it sucks! How in the world did CD's awful story turn into a fight? My heart sank for her and her boys when I read of her weekend, and I know nothing about her and her situation. I would think to feel badly and want to cry for her boys and her would be the natural reaction of anyone who has a HEART, whether they are a ws, bs, oc, op, etc!

The blanket statements that followed were foolish. How can anyone make a blanket statement in this forum? I know I haven't been here very long, but I have yet to come across any 2 people that have the exact same situation. Some may be similar but it's impossible for any 2 situations to be the same.

I read the arguments last night before dinner, they frustrated me, and left me feeling speechless, which is rare for me, as you know by my posts.

I woke in the middle of the night, tossed and turned, thinking about the arguments and the debate over what is considered abandonment.

I found your post today, Tig, and couldn't believe it. One of the things I thought about last night was your adoption, and how that is not abandonment. Yet by the blanket statements on here, one could view it as so.

What you did Tig, was not to abandon. You gave your daughter and her adoptive parents a very precious gift. You provided for her needs by giving her to another family. That is not abandonment. You sacrificed.

In my situation, I am thankful that x-om quietly dropped from the scene, and said he would never come back to contact the OC. I have never viewed his position as abandonment, and no one on here has jumped on it, saying he has abandoned the OC. It has been a non-issue.

On the other hand, what if things turned out differently for me, and my husband wasn't so gracious and forgiving and willing to raise the baby with me as his own? I might have been knocking on the x-om's door and looking for CS. What if he said, "No, go away, I want nothing to do with the baby!"? Then the whole messy court thing would transpire, on and on. I would probably be calling him slime, and at least some of you would also. I would consider him, as abandoning his child, and certainly shirking his responsiblities. I'd sure be singing a different tune then I am now, wouldn't I? See, our views are different, based on the situation at hand.

I must admit, I do wonder if x-om is curious if I'm still P, if I was ever really P, if I'm still married, etc. If I were in his shoes, the curiosity would drive me crazy. Perhaps he doesn't give a rip at all, and although it hurts a bit, again, I will say I am thankful. However, I realize I am saying that sitting in the position I am in. With a loving, forgiving, generous husband who is willing to be the father to my baby, and wanting to live in peace w/ no interruptions from x-om. The way I view it is, I was nothing more than a sperm recepticle for x-om, and he a sperm donor to me.

This baby has a Dad, thus is not being abandoned. If he, (baby) finds out some day about his biology, then he may feel abandoned by bio-dad. That will stink, but we will cross that bridge when we get to it.

My husband has made a committment to me as well as to the OC. If after a few years of my husband being father to OC, then pulls what CD's x did this past weekend, I would consider it to be abandonment, pure and simple! (Just as my A was abandoning my husband. I think Jenny mentioned that viewpoint...that was a good one!) No matter that he is not the bio-dad. He would be the only father OC knows and loves, thus OC would be devastated. Gemini said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All I wanted to say is there is a huge difference on walking out on children who have lived with you their entire lives....compared to never knowing or wanting another womans child...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are all forms of abandonment. Some forms are very clear, black and white, such as what happened to CD's boys. Other forms are not so clear cut, and sometimes defined only by our own personal viewpoints, and situations at hand. There is no room for blanket statements.

Now I know what some of you have been talking about when you say you miss the way the board used to be. I think I came somewhat after what you all refer to as "good ole days", but thankfully after some of the bickering too, till now that is.

My primary reason for coming here in the first place, was to find a way to help save my marriage. That is why I am still here. I wait, and look for the posters that have said so many wise words to come along and reply to not only my posts, but to the heart wrenching posts, by the old and new alike. Just by hearing their advice to others, has helped me and my M. I am so excited when I see ppl such as Tigger, K, JL, BTDT, Gemini, TMCM, MJ, Pops and a host of others post a reply to someone. I know I am going to learn something on those days for sure! It was disheartening to see some of my faves, although needed, have to come to the rescue of an argument.

I look forward to reading the posts from the wise (not sure if old or young) sages I mentioned. Please stop by more often! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I hope we can get back to marriage building!

Hope all are having a great summer day!
~aut

#821776 07/09/03 12:23 PM
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tigger4jdt,
YOU???? SLIME???? C'mon girl, you know that isn't true.

I know what you mean when you get "hurt" by words. Maybe not meant for you, but all the same a reminder of something so significant in your life the memory just rushes to the surface, right?

NGU you were right to say in hearing that "A" word, abandon (not affair), that you take it to mean that our own WS are being targeted.

Jenny, Pepperband,adgirl48,Kowala,JL, good advice.

Now Autumn, I don't want you to lose sleep over what is said here. You have been so sharing in the renewal of your marriage and I hope it continues to flourish!

I still don't consider my H and I not being involved with oc as abandonment. That's the point I was trying to make. It is a huge difference leaving your wife and children you had together. Never knowing oc is to us like adoption for ow and her H....ya know?
We will just leave each other alone.

As far as enjoying this summer day....what summer day? It's been raining here since April! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

love
Debi

#821777 07/09/03 12:54 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I still don't consider my H and I not being involved with oc as abandonment. That's the point I was trying to make. It is a huge difference leaving your wife and children you had together. Never knowing oc is to us like adoption for ow and her H....ya know? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">gem, yep I understand, and agree too, especially if the oc is provided for and has a loving, nurturing parent(s).

As far as losing sleep, I do that a lot at this point in P. It was actually good to have my mind wander to other thoughts, rather than the typical late night visions of my stupid behavior w/ x-om. As wonderful as things are going w/ my H, I long for the day that the thought of A, and x-om do not cross my mind. I'm ashamed to still be in withdrawal, but each day does seem a little better than the prior.

A lot of rain here to, but just in the last few weeks. Still, a rainy summer day in these parts is better than ANY day in winter! Of course, still nothing better than a sunny, warm autumn day! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

#821778 07/09/03 01:01 PM
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Hey Slimeball!!!!

Yeah you.....

I love you. You are a great pal....and you know how I feel....

Your pal,
Scumbucket and sleeze
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

#821779 07/09/03 01:51 PM
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Aut,you're so right. A rainy summer day IS better than a cold winter day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks for understanding my POV. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hey Twiisted sister! How's it goin?

love
Debi

#821780 07/09/03 02:00 PM
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Gem wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey Twiisted sister! How's it goin?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's going....going....gone.....
other than that, I'm doing well. Did you get my new e-mail? I need yours again....long story! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I sure miss you and it's refreshing to see your and Catty's and others monikers light up the board once again.

I've posted an update on OB1's thread, and I've never been better....probably will stay on the zoloft for the rest of my life, but it's great!

How are you and yours? I bet your grandbaby is adorable...update me!

Hugs to you,
Twiisty

#821781 07/09/03 10:10 PM
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asap, Twiisty, asap.
Love you girl and will forward my new address soon...changed to cable and dropped former ip.
love
Debi

#821782 07/10/03 08:14 AM
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I agree with you tigger...


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