cm,,,,,,, i am jumping down here to reply to your post on the cd thread. it seems that you are saying you understand yet want to argue the point. this confuses me. if you know that there are extenuateing circumstances in these most hypocritical situations then why on earth would you make a blanket statement that is sure to ruffle some feathers? is it just for the sake of arguement, is it intended to drive a stake into someone, or is it because you are dealing with the same issue and want your om to ne involved in your life?

i (imho) think you missed the whole point of the cd thread. it was NOT abandonment. it was a mother lashing out because someone that had given all the appearances to care about her sons hiurt them so deeply by out right lieing to them. it was about an adult taking advantage of c's. whether it was the fact of abandonment or his just letting them down with empty promises. the real point was how could any adult cause such unexplained pain to a child.

pops,

What I am saying is that I see two points. One is the question of what is best for the child. The second is the parent. I am not saying I see your point but then argue for support of my broad view of the child abandoner. edited to add: What I am saying is the two issues are exclusive of eachother. Child's best interest and parents lack of character and integrity.

Oh, good God I do not want xOM in our lives in any way, shape or form. That is why removed him from my life. I knew full well that he didn't have the character to be impeccible with his word so once I pushed him out of my life for good, the rest would fall into place. It was best for my child, my husband, and myself, there is no doubt about that in my mind.

pops, on my journey to healing, in seeking personal freedom and happiness I've learned a few things about human beings. I've learned that we take nearly everything personally. Thats why we suffer on and on and on over what other people do and say. What people say to us, whether it is a mean or it is complimentary, it is not about us at all. It is all about them. Likewise, I know that people say or do things under the pretense of external reasons, but for the most part, we act for ourselves. We do things because they are best for us or because we are afraid. Until we recognize this we will continue doing it. I know that if a person says one thing but does another, we are lying to ourselves if we don't listein to their actions. In my journey, I came to understand xOM in a whole new way. For the first time in 8 years, I see him for the person he is. He's not a horrible, rotten, sob by any means. BUT, he sure as heck isn't MR. Wonderful either. I'm all done defending him or anyother WS. That is not meant to drive a knife into anybody. It is just my view.

I know that in order to heal, we have to forgive. Without forgiveness, we will continue to suffer from whatever pains us. Its a choice that we make, not because the person who wronged us deserves to be forgiven, but because we love ourselves enough to want to stop suffering.

That is where I'm at. That is where I'm coming from. I am not going to gloss over what my xOM did or didn't do, I'm not going to spread whipped cream on top of @hit because as I've said, underneath, its still @hit. Just as I held myself accountable for my choices in life, so too I hold the rest of the world. I'm not judging but I'm not excusing. I am just calling it like I see it. I guess you can say, the fog or miltote in my mind is in process of lifting.

I don't believe I missed the point of her thread. And I'll explain why. I see what her xH did as a process of abandonment. Just like my H's father did to him. He'd go out for icecream for the family and not return home for a month. (only one example of many) Sure, he came back. But my husband still suffers from abandonment issues. He still wonders what was wrong with HIM, why didn't his daddy love him enough to be impeccible with his word?

Abandonment isn't always a one shot deal. It can be physical or emotional. I see it as a pattern that this guy is capable of delivering. He did it when cd and he became seperated to his oc, and now he's in process of running off again. Who knows how many more times he'll pull something like that on those children. Hopefully never. But do you think those kids are wondering what did they do wrong to make him not show up? I do.

When I look at the pain he caused his kids by doing what he did, I see both physical (even if temporary) and emotional abandonment. That is what I wrote in my reply and I haven't changed my view on that.

<small>[ July 09, 2003, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

Cm you wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh, good God I do not want xOM in our lives in any way, shape or form. That is why removed him from my life. I knew full well that he didn't have the character to be impeccible with his word so once I pushed him out of my life for good, the rest would fall into place. It was best for my child, my husband, and myself, there is no doubt about that in my mind. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps that is how some ws/OM feel about their ow's and decided it was best for their OC to be with Mama. This is the man that you planned your oc with, right? Just double checking.

Maybe my husband felt that due to undue harrassment with an irrational woman (at the time), that it was best to protect ALL his children, OC included? (mama wouldn't harrass her own child)

It amazes me that you can have that choice, but others can't? Does he pay you child support? OR did you choose to let him off easy and you are mad because he promised you the moon and now doesn't want any part of your child that you two planned together?

Personally, I think it's great that you made the choice to protect your husband, your marriage and your child. Your choice of No Contact is an excellent one that suits your situation. Like I've always said, there isn't a one size fits all for anyone's situation.

Glad to see that your marriage is going well.

Twiisty

Why is it that if someone is of an opinion that you are not, they get this type of interrogation? I don&#8217;t understand what is so difficult to comprehend here..? My post is my opinion. Big deal.

First, planned with my ex? Where on earth did you get that I planned a pregnancy? That&#8217;s the first I&#8217;ve heard of it. Double check again.

Second, if om/mm ended things with ow because she was not capable of being impeccable with her word, but then lets her raise their child with no input or help from him&#8230;.exactly how is that honorable? He has nc, correct??!!

Did you read my opening paragraph? I think I wrote something about I see the issues of what is best for the child and the interity of the parent as 2 issues. Why do you people continue to try and ball this thing up in one neat package? Please reread parag 1.

edited: You wrote --->> It amazes me that you can have that choice, but others can't? Does he pay you child support? OR did you choose to let him off easy and you are mad because he promised you the moon and now doesn't want any part of your child that you two planned together?

I had what choice? To kick him out of my life? That is the choice I made. He promised me the moon and didn&#8217;t deliver? What are you talking about? I am confused..? Child support? No, he doesn&#8217;t pay support because my husband made the decision that we would not take his $. He wants the door closed and it is. Personally, I&#8217;d take a big fat check from him every month and be perfectly happy socking it away in a college fund. I am still working on convincing my H that we should go for it. Om has agreed to paying support and has been quite civil during any conversation we&#8217;d ever had about it. Actually he thought we could be wonderful friends and he could have contact with child as some kind of weriod &#8216;uncle&#8217; or friend of the family. I thought I told you all that part, but maybe that got confused with the tale that he wanted no part of him and that we planned a preg. Together. I&#8217;m not sure.

Anyways, my child has a secure loving home with two parents who adore him. That is perfect. Too many of the men fathered children and left to to be raised without a father. I&#8217;ve said what I think about it and if you don&#8217;t agree that&#8217;s fine. I still think it. It isn&#8217;t about me personally. It is about what I believe speaks volumes about their lack of integrity and character.

And finally, as it has been said to me time and time and yet more time again, if you read something that you don&#8217;t&#8217; agree with, move on. It isn&#8217;t about you personally. I wrote what I believe to be true. I have often wondered about some of the creeps masquerading as super dads and when they&#8217;ll royally screw someone else close to them. My ex is one of them. Everyone thought he was one person but later found out he is a walking fraud. It is truly sad for those who had no forewarning.

I wrote that if this guy of cd&#8217;s had walked away from one child it is no surprise that he would do it again. Its horrible and I hope the children get tons of support. A nice person doesn&#8217;t treat children badly. Any children..Again my opinion.

I hope I've sufficently answered your questions because my opinion hasn't changed since the last time I checked. Just re-read my reply on cd's thread. I think it says exactly how I feel and how bad behavior such as that on the part of parents has far reaching, unforgettable affects on children.

<small>[ July 09, 2003, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

CM,
I stand corrected. I mis-read. My apologies. I think you are doing what is best for your child and your marriage, same as those of us who feel we are doing the best in ours. You and your Husband's choice of NC and your H raising your child as his own is commendable. Will your son know about bio-dad?

I must have had you confused with someone else. My mistake. Please accept my sincerest apologies.
I will have re-read and edit before I click next time. I think we all need to calm down on this board, myself included. You are right, you have a right to your own opinions as we all do. I may not always agree with everyone on the board, but thank God we all have the freedom to express our opinions.

Again, my mistake. I read your post wrong.
Twiisty

These are just thoughts and opinions, and I see no reason we cant all share a viewpoint with out so much hate. It is a discussion thats all, participate or dont. Why get worked up over it.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I agree, I just had CM confused with someone else, I suppose.

Twiisty

cd,,,, i am even more confused now. you wrote that your xom is not in your childs life and that is how you prefer it. does this mean he abandoned his child? if so that must mean he is slime, correct? if so how can the slime be civil in all conversations and not raise a pi$$y fit over cs? if he is chooseing to stay out of your life as you requested so you and h can move forward is that not honorable? last what kind of women throws or kicks her childs father out of their lives?

so the question is, when you kicked him out of your life and he conceded with no problems how does that make him slime? for going along with your wishes? or should he have told you to go fly a kite and insisted on dna and having a presence in his childs life?

prior to my oldest son being born his mother and i had ended our relationship together and each had started a new one with diferent partners (mine was with fh). his mom and i talked and came to the conclusion that if her relationship worked and her new bf was willing i would step aside and our son would know 1 father. her relationship failed in less then a year and i became involved with my son. was that abandonment?

thank you for the explanation of the forms of abandonment. would you not agree that most A's are caused by the ws's feeling emotionaly abandoned? emotional abandonment is probably more painful then physical in mho.

twiisty,

You make me smile <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

It is bad enough being a ww. I can only hope that those of us who are truly remorseful, and not bitter will be viewed individually by the bs on here, and not lumped together w/ other ww that seem to have a chip on their shoulders.

Ok, now I'm allowing myself to get involved where I told myself I wouldn't, but just had to rant a minute. I'll send anyway.

<small>[ July 09, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: autumnday ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by pops:
<strong>cd,,,, i am even more confused now. you wrote that your xom is not in your childs life and that is how you prefer it. does this mean he abandoned his child? if so that must mean he is slime, correct? if so how can the slime be civil in all conversations and not raise a pi$$y fit over cs? if he is chooseing to stay out of your life as you requested so you and h can move forward is that not honorable? last what kind of women throws or kicks her childs father out of their lives?

--->I'm in a rush so this is going to be quick.
Did I call him slime? No. I said he wasn't a lousy person. But I did say he could not be impeccable with his word and that his character was questionable.
There was no room in MY life for him. Apparantly no contact with me means no contact with child. That is how I interpret his actions. My H just loves that but I have issues with om on some level.

so the question is, when you kicked him out of your life and he conceded with no problems how does that make him slime? for going along with your wishes? or should he have told you to go fly a kite and insisted on dna and having a presence in his childs life?

--->again, I'm not part of the package anymore. But I'm also not his flesh and blood child either. I told him if he wanted to do dna we could and he laughed and said no need, there is no doubt in his mind. At least it never came to that between us. We got along pretty well over our 7 or so years together. Not that I'd say that at home but its true give or take. We just had different visions and dreams. He may have questionable interity but he isn't all bad.

prior to my oldest son being born his mother and i had ended our relationship together and each had started a new one with diferent partners (mine was with fh). his mom and i talked and came to the conclusion that if her relationship worked and her new bf was willing i would step aside and our son would know 1 father. her relationship failed in less then a year and i became involved with my son. was that abandonment?

--->This sounds familiar....I'd say a quick yes. No time to elaborate.

thank you for the explanation of the forms of abandonment. would you not agree that most A's are caused by the ws's feeling emotionaly abandoned? emotional abandonment is probably more painful then physical in mho.
edited to answer this one ---> I think affairs are caused by lots of differnt issues I dont' know that "most" are caused by emotional abandonment. I had some en's not met but I wasn't abandoned.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ July 09, 2003, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

Aut,

You have email and I'm on IM for a little bit longer, if you want to chat.

Tig

autumn,
we dont think or sound alike because first we are in different stages of all this, we are long past the emotional part of it, I dont think any of us are bitter, as I dont have any one leaving my child,and i dont want or need him in my life, certainly not to the extent that he is, which is weekly sometimes daily.
You havent been here as much or seen and heard some of the comments or names and such, that come from being the ws, with a different set of opinions. WE dont go along with the crowd, Not a bad thing, just different. I hear all the time how I am not remorseful. But my husband and my self have long since moved past this, been over three years. SO alot has taken place more than I could possibly type.

again just a discussion I see no reason for any one to attack on this issue. But I cant or wont change my beliefs to go along with the majority. Why would I do that.
I still believe every thing I have said and will stand by it.
While I see nc as an optiona nd understand it, I wouldnt want someone around my baby who didnt want to be. I dont understand giving your husband an ultimatum, the marriage or a child that he knows is his and has seen and had contact, and there are those here who have done that and claim it is because the ow, well courts can take care of that as well, . .. would you give your child up, if your husband said you had to many kids, even if it was his child. Some would some wouldnt. I would not,. But again thats just me. No one said any one was slime for adopting or giving a child up for adoption. Certainly an option, just not one for me, although I have an adopted child.

I am sorry these thoughts bother you or any one, but they are there, and I am glad as twisty said I have a right to voice my opinion. Just ignore what you dont like and leave the rest.

It isnt an attack merely conversation on a subject that is hurtfull to all parties.

Ok MO5,
What ultimatum do you speak of?

That does not exist here at marriage builders at all.

I was going for a divorce a few years ago so as to NOT stand in the way of my H and oc.

I was not going to be the reason H didn't see oc IF HE WANTED TO.

So if you call renewing a relationship that existed before all the mess, by excluding the oc/ow dilemma an ultimatum you are flat out wrong.

If H WANTED to be with oc, he would.

We followed the Harleys advice and guess what?

My H and I are making progress at record speed.

Please note this is marriage builders and any reference to not wanting your oc around someone who didn't want them is again, ow fear, ow thinking.

We TRIED.

Glad we don't deal with the chaos anymore.

Ok! I'm done!

BTW, pops, you and fullhouse are great.
Thanks for putting my words into your typewriter to cm.
Sometimes a male POV is heard better. However, not much better. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
love
Debi

My H and I are making progress at record speed.

I think thats great, We have something in common, My husband and i are doing pretty good also, I cant complain, Just two very different point of views, But not one to be angry about... But we are both doing great in our relationships, Doesnt make me wrong, doesnt make you wrong, just makes us different. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> So much anger <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> .. I am not angry just giving my point of view.. Thats all...

<small>[ July 09, 2003, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

by the way gem Please note this is marriage builders and any reference to not wanting your oc around someone who didn't want them is again, ow fear, ow thinking.

This doesnt have squat to do with any man, or being a WW, OC ,BS, OW OM. only as a mother why would you want someone who did not want your child to be around them any way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> If I am not supposed to judge and explain your thoughts, How in the world can you decide mine. Every body take a deep breath. This is really nothing to fight about, I will not chnage your views you will not change mine. Its ok if we dont agree. I like knowing your opinion, gives me a different point of view. I dont have to agree, or follow your advice, but I dont mind hearing how others think. But I think you label my thinking as OW, when it doesnt have any thing to do with my relationship with MM. [actually this may not be completely true, I guess how I think and feel is determined by what I have felt and experienced in life. and NO I WOULD NOT WANT SOMEONE AROUND MY child if they did not want to be.
with out calling names and getting angry why not explain in a nice way why That is hard to understand that statement.

Bitter? Who the hell is bitter!

I'm a living being with an opinion of people who make children and pretend they didn't. It has nothing to do with bitter trust me!

Life has been very good for me. I have only my blessings to count thank God.

I would like to comment on this quote:
Gemini says: Please note this is marriage builders and any reference to not wanting your oc around someone who didn't want them is again, ow fear, ow thinking.

I think not. This is a mother's thought process. Stop generalizing about ow thinking. Do you now have a functional crystal ball in working order? How would you know what another person is thinking if they don't tell you? Magic?
Would you want someone around your children who didn't want to be there? I thought so.
Momof5 is like me, a WS and long gone OW. Get over it.
Does our identifying ourselves as WS scare you? Is that why you try so hard to pretend we are more not like your WS?

CM we are very aware of the oc made.

Do you think we are insane?

I again will say that N/C is a decision never made in haste.

It is made together, husband and wife. Ow's can't seem to remember op is a married man.
Once the A hits the light of day the op/mm wants nothing more than his safe life back...in most cases...especially if wife was a great person to begin with. And they lied about her to ow.

OW remain in a stupor as to why the man wants nothing to do with "their" child.

It's no secret, cm.
OP/MM usually only selfishly used ow. A child that is sent cs and health insurance is not forgotten. We do our part as best we can. It's an abnormal circumstance.
Now as far as everything goes....we move ahead the best way we know how.

MO5, point taken. I would not want someone around my child who didn't want to be....but ow told my H that same thing about me and nothing could have been further from the truth!

WE FREAKIN TRIED!!!

Ow wanted me as far as possible away from "their" child.

She got her wish.......

Debi

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Bitter? Who the hell is bitter!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gee, I don't know.

I was speaking to the bitter sound of the words spoken, not so much the words themselves, nor the opinions expressed. I try to hear a person's voice when reading posts, and I'm sorry, I heard bitterness, but that may be the wrong word, just couldn't think of a better one at the time.

Just Learning taught me a valuable lesson on "how I say things" vs. "what I say and do", and also my defensiveness. I asked my H point blank about what JL detected. He agreed, and I have been working on that in not only my R w/ my H, but in all my R's, and really anyone I come in contact with ever since, trying to be more conscious of HOW I say things.

As far as life, it has been very good for me too. I unfortunately squandered (sp) what I had. I also unfortunately have many mistakes to account for <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> , while counting my many blessings.

Oh, and Speaking of JL, a thought crossed my mind, that made me lol to myself. I was thinking, I bet never, ever in the history of this P/Child board has there ever been this back and forth rowing between JL, K, TMCM, and Pops. I wonder what they think of this stuff between women? They probably sit there and shake their heads!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Ok, I told myself I would stay out of this debate, and here I am...again. I think I best go dig up a recipe and head on over (w/tale between legs?) to that post!!

~aut

aut,,,, interesting point you made there about the diference between men and women here. at the great risk of being bashed as a sexist i think that is because (and this is a very general statement) women speak more from their emotional/passionate side and men speak more from their logical/statiscal side. by no means am i saying women aren't logical or men can't be emotional.

i think we come to the conclusion and realize the things we can and can't change quicker. amybe it's just that we will give our opinion and move on. an example is: k and i have different views on c vs. nc and cs vs. no cs. but what is working for him would not work for me. so we respect each others decisions and move on.

what i notice about many women here is that if another woman has a different view from their own. they try to change each others opinions. I think that is because of womens higher emotional nature that they take things much more personal then men do. you can never argue with emotion as it gets in the way of the facts. men have a tendency to be able to step back and see things from the 3rd party viewpoint better.

another example, the other day fh deciced to fix her hair in a diferent style. she asked me what i thought and i said it looked nice. when she got to work someone asked her if she was running late and a child on her bus didn't recognize her and said where's fh. when i met her for lunch she wanted to know why i didn't tell her that her hair looked so bad. the truth was i liked it but she took the other 2 comments so personal that i became a guy that didn't care if her hair looked like a birds nest. does she think i don't care about her? no. but her emotions got in the way of the facts (logic). the facts were that people were so used to seeing her hair so perfect that when she went to the slightly wild look it took them by surprise.

well this senseless rambling probably stirred a whole nother hornets nest.

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

pops
are sure your not a sociology professor , You sound An aweful like one I had. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>