Gemini,

To answer your question - yes. Sometimes I question your sanity when I read your posts.
Its obvious that you have not forgiven and are still suffering. Why on earth do you continue as you do? What do you get out of being so angry? Happiness?

What you speak about for soemone else, "OM" I haven't lived that experience with my xOM. Even long after the baby was born, he had no intention of ending our relationship. Not even when I told him I had issues about how I handled things and that I was going to tell H. He never tucked his tail and ran. I asked him why not? He said I knew why not. And I do.

The fact is that it just wouldn't have worked given how we started out and where we were at in that moment in our lives. That particular choice was about me, for me. Thats why I chose to put an end the rollercoaster.

Considering everything I know about you from your posts, it is no small wonder OW wouldn't let her child near you. I sure wouldn't either. Do you blame her? You are full of rage and resentment.

The good news is that for you, your H is right there with you. Many say one thing and do another as we've read about on the other board. Looks like the adults all got what they wanted for themselves.

Looks like the adults all got what they wanted for themselves.

Thats funny, om and I had this exact conversation, we both felt we had made decisions based on our selves and not our child, even though we thought we had. We decided to change that, and have been slowly working on that.. But I am sure it will be a slow process.
It takes team work to raise a child together and frankly that is a difficult thing given the circumstances.
Maybe you tried gem maybe you didnt. I think what I find hardest is that the way you guys describe things, is so simialar, yet I am nothing Like what you describe and I find it hard to believe every one of these women is like that.
Sure some are, it takes all types.

But some of us beat our heads against a wall because we bend over backwards to make sure our child is safe and happy, and makes sure that the spouse and om do not have any hardships when caring for the child. I send toys ,clothes, books, favorite foods, pictures, movies. What ever they say they need or want, I let them take her places, she is sleeping over again a little not alot, I work to accomadate their schedule and frankly have worked my [censored] off trying to make this work, and I still get crap and ridiculous ramblings from his wife.
why, I dont have a clue, but I will tell you this, it drives me and my husband insane, and we get sick of it. But it drives om insane as well.
But I havent cut off his right or walked away, because my daughter knows he is her father, and she has the right to know him and I dont have the right to take it away, However, if he were not intrested in her and they never wanted to see her, which in the beggining it was so[at least for his wife it was], then I would not want them around my child, cause it would make no sense. It would hurt my child.
But since he is in her life, and yes in mine as we share parenting and discuss all parenting aspects of raising her, then I expect him to do his very best to keep the crap out of my life and my families life. And that goes for his wife to, because when she is caring for my child she has a responsibility to keep her safe and happy. She chose that when she and her husband became active in our daughters life.

Far as om goes, he would go back to the way things were in a heart beat, doesnt bother him, He has no remorse, if he does it passes quickly.
He doesnt want that safe environment, or he wouldnt do what he does. I however like my safe environment and am less likely to rock the boat, But what a long time it took to not want to rock the boat.

But hearing statements that the ow women is only concerned because she wants the om back, is hurtfull, and meant to be, and i doubt true in most cases, although I can see how a wife would think this, as I am a wife and probably would think the same thing. However it isnt true.

I wonder if om's wife thinks this of me, Maybe as her husband lies to her daily, I would be suspicious, but that isnt my problem its his.

OW remains in stupor as to why om wants nothing to do with their child.

I think this goes back to what pops said as a mother,[e,otions] I find it incredible that any person who created a child would not want that child... But only because I could not handle losing one of my children.
I know women who have given their children to ex husband and gone on with their lives and i stand amazed it is so easy for them, as I worry when they spend the night with a friend. My children come first for me. I was suprised that the man who picked out baby names, didnt want his child either, only now he tells me how sorry he was, and how wrong he was and a week after she was born he had changed his mind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> But he also couldnt believe I didnt name her the name he had picked out, told me he was dissapointed in me, that I didnt treasure him enough to do so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> SO tell me where any of this is rational, and how much is my fault and how much is his fault... I say we both made a mess,and still dont know what the hell were doing. But we owe it to d to try.


But yes seeing so much anger and pain, it scares us as mothers, and we worry about children around someone who may not be able to hide that feeling and emotion.

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

Mo5 said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
But yes seeing so much anger and pain, it scares us as mothers, and we worry about children around someone who may not be able to hide that feeling and emotion.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...Which is why no contact would be best in a situation like that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The anger and pain of betrayal is justified, IMO.

If a BS can't accept the OC, then OW should raise OC or give OC up for adoption and go on with their lives. After OC is born is too late to be thinking about the welfare of the innocent child and trying to make everything perfect when it's chaos. WS and BS should be about rebuilding their marriage, and if POJA leaves one unable to be enthusiastic about contact with the OC, then OC is better off without. Plain and simple.

I think pretending to be enthusiastic and forcing it because it's the right thing to do can cause more damage because of the undercurrent of anger and hurt building up into resentment.

That's just how I see it and it doesn't mean the OC of a single parent cannot be loved, accepted, wanted and grow up to be a productive, well-rounded citizen. Mine is and did...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>Bitter? Who the hell is bitter!

I'm a living being with an opinion of people who make children and pretend they didn't....

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with this statement, except I would add the one missing word:

"I'm a living being with an opinion of people who make other children and pretend they didn't..."

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

btdt, CHILDREN are children. Don't you DARE change my words. Who are you to TELL me what I REALLY MEAN AND REALLY THINK? That is not what I meant and YOU know it.
An opinion of pretending they didn't make "oc" instead of children. Oh, right einstein...thats why I wrote what I did on CD's thread about her xH and what he did to his kids.

Do you go around calling your child an other child? Give me a break!
You know, I remember telling xOM/MM about his site and how you people corrected me when I referred to his existing children as the other children. He laughed at that and said, to you cm, they are the other children! So I asked him, well the point is that they say *** is YOUR oc. He looked puzzled for a second and they HUH? I said, yeh, an oc...you know a child you and I made together. Different than the ones you already have. He said cm, do you believe everything that you read? I replied that this was apart of the culture and principals on this site. He responded by, take what works for you cm, leave the rest. **** isn't any different other than you and I weren't married when he was conceived. Now we're working on figuring out how make this work somehow.

That was one of my last conversations with him before I had to go nc.

So, btdt, not all people, not all OP, not all MM, not all OM, differentiate their children this way.

I use this example rather than my own just so I don't have to hear about OW mentality crap. Last time I checked, xOM wasn't an OW but he is a WS..just like I was.

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

CM, and Others,

This thread is really beginning to annoy me. I don't have an OC, or an affair or any of these issues, but what annoys me most is the constant haggling over the term OC.

I think EVERYONE agrees that children need to be reared and nurtured. RIGHT? Answer me, RIGHT?

I think everyone here also preferrs anonimity on this site, and in fact not only uses other names they don't even mention their children's names, RIGHT???

Answer me RIGHT?

So when talking about children of the marriage most people here use the term my D, my S. When talking about children from previous marriage, most will refer to them as step children, or children from previous marriage. AM I RIGHT???

The term OC was and is ONLY correctly used to designate a child created by the affair. It is a term to allow people on this site to distinguish the origin of this child as distinct from the children of their current marriage or other marriages or relationships. It implies the child was conceived while one or both of the partners where married to someone else. Notice how long this paragraph is getting? The term OC was and is used to succienctly (sp) state the situation.

The term OC was/is NOT used to imput to that child any other characteristics. The OC is a child with all of the needs, rights, and expectations for good treatment that any other child has.

CM the fact that people use the term OC, does NOT mean that they would harm the child, be hateful toward the child, or view the OC as anything but an innocent child.

People are getting wrapped around the axel over a simple, accurate, and innocent use of an an abbreviation. Quit doing that.

Further AD made a comment about some of the men on this site. Well, part of the difference is the K has reached an accomodation about his situation, I was never in this situation, Pops has the advantage of maturity on his side, AND MEN ARE NOT REARED TO THINK THEY CAN CHANGE OTHER PEOPLE. Women seem to be.

What bothers me, is that people are not useing the resources here to address their pain, and make their lives better. Momof5 is truely unique, and I have serious doubts that most people could pull off what she has. I must credit her H, because the involvement of her OM in things would be more than I could stand. But, she is doing it, and her approach to things is well worth considering. CM has chosen a different path. I am not sure if she ever told her H about the genesis of his child. But, she has stopped contact with OM. Tigger's approach to this is somewhat different yet, but it is successful.

All of these women had an OC, they have something to teach or at least offer to the women who's H's have had OC's. Not all of it will be useful, but they do offer some insight.

Now for the women who get yanked into this situation because of their H's affairs, we have a mix of situations: some have continued contact with the OC. Some have tried this approach and it fail, and now have no contact with OC. Some never wanted or had any contact with OC. In most cases whatever the W's wanted the H's went along with. But, all H's and their W's are paying childsupport.

Do you see a trend here? Of course you don't, you all are too focused on the OC, or should we call these children OC. What you are missing is that most of you are STILL married. Each of you has chosen a different path to maintain that marriage and address the presence of the OC/the A in your lives. Sometimes the contact is simply financial, sometimes it is more.

There is another trend here that you all are missing. Each of you (married or not, mother of OC or not, father of OC or not) has been and is deeply hurt by what you did or your spouse did, or both. Each of you are here for help because you want your marriage to work, you want to meet life's obligations, and you want to be good people.

Why don't you guys (yeah I mean girls too) start focusing on the reasons you are here. Why don't you use the experience to learn, make decisions, and perhaps find a way to handle things that will make you and your spouse (if you have one) happy? You don't have to like anyone else's solution, but you do need to respectfully listen to it AND assume that what they post is NOT TO HURT someone but is an offer of information to be used or not used as the situation warrents.

I am tired of seeing arguements about who loves children more and how a person should show it. None of the children in question here have been abandoned. They may not be in the ideal situation, but their conception wasn't ideal. And ideal is in the eye of the beholder. I have brothers and sister's and NONE of us really agree on how children should be raised and there are none of the issues you all are dealing with. Heck, we were raised in the same family, and yet our approaches differ greatly.

Given that, why do any of you expect that everyone or anyone will agree with you?

So please let's go back to asking questions and offering answers to the individuals that ask them, and NOT try to solve all of the worlds ills with blanket statements.

Ok, I am done.

God Bless You All,

JL

JL,

I only read your opening line and that is all that I will respond to.
You think your annoyed? One simple post of mine generated alot of this bull@hit.
I didn't bring up oc, oc v. existing kids. I brought up the word abandonment and people went nuts. I suggested this xH, this man is a creep for doing what he did and that he had a history of it and more. Big deal. My response to btdt about term 'oc' was in response to her requoting me. Take it up with her.

Now, I've got someone requoting me. Changing my words from "children" to OC. Take your point up with her because I'm not listeing at this point to anymore. sorry, I'm just not.

This thread was started by pops because he had questions for me to answer aside from CDCollins thread. He and I had a civil exchange of words. Who invited btdt and others to bring up all kinds of other BS is beyond me. I'd love to had only responded to pops and the others to stay out of it. But they didn't. I really felt I needed to reply to btdt's ridiculour post. Please don't address your annoyance to me Jl. They came and they prompted this.

Good grief I wish this thread would get locked and soon.

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

JL,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So please let's go back to asking questions and offering answers to the individuals that ask them, and NOT try to solve all of the worlds ills with blanket statements. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have such a way with words, and an amazing insight! Thank you for saying what I couldn't.

Tigger

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: tigger4jdt ]</small>

CM,

Sorry you didn't read further, It isn't all about you. In fact, the post was addressed to you and OTHERS. But, mainly OTHERS.

Oh! well. It is your right to read what you wish and not read what you wish.

God Bless,

JL