Joshmom, you lurk here and express your opinion freely, and there was a time when most of those here welcomed you. Your insights seemed to give us windows into the other side of the affair, that of the OW/mother of OC.
Yet currently you seem to have become malicious both here on our board, as well as what you take back to your own board.
One thing I have noticed, seeing as I lurk on your board but never post, is the members of that board never have any compunction about "jacking" posts from here and then ridiculing the poster from MB.
It brings to mind the reason that maybe the BS's are hostile to OW. Maybe because that is what the OW is about. By having an affair with a MM she ridicules the marriage and all marriages. When the affair ends, she still must ridicule the wife, that is the only way she is happy.
I, and I think the others, have never had a problem with OW posting so long as they did not create a hostiile environment.
One more thing, I don't think anyone here has ever "jacked" one of the posts from your board.
Maybe that speaks to the fact that a "lady" wouldn't stoop to an affair, a "lady" waits for a man who is free to be involved with her, a man who doesn't have commitments to another, good or bad.
Just my feelings, Just as you all are tired of what you call our sanctomoniousness, I am tired of yours. An OW has no rights, the OC does.
Hope you don't pass on your bitterness to your child.

Texasgirl

Having had this brought to my attention, there are two things that must be clarified:

1) The reference given (that I believe you're referring to) was NOT, I repeat **NOT** a reference to MB. There are more than a few other boards out there, you know.

2) you wrote: "I don't think anyone here has ever "jacked" one of the posts from your board."

Incorrect. The one I remember most recently was, I *think* back around the end of the last calendar year. It involved a member from TOW being discussed here, it involved people from here going "over there" (during which time I personally met some very nice people, twiisty being one of them), and strangely enough, IIRC, it morphed into a clarification on the internet lingo "troll", for the people who apparently didn't understand at the time that it was in fact internet lingo. (Some thought it only meant "monster under a bridge".)

But if you want a more solid example, the simplest, most cursory search easily pops this one right up:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=002413#00 0000

As I said, having had this brought to my attention, I did feel those two inaccurate points needed correction. Have no fear, end of my visit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

editing because, I apologize, I forgot my sig ...

-friendofk/chud (OW no, BW no, OC yes, W yes)

###########

I came back to edit once more because I can now give a specific, solid reference to one of my above points. That instance that I said happened around the end of the last calendar year? ...

The person (from TOW) who was "jacked" to over here helped get my memory back up to speed, and it was then easy to pull up (here) with a search. The MB reference is this:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=003301#00 0000

The "jack" begins (albeit vaguely) with catnip in post number 5, where an issue/poster on gloryb is brought up for discussion. It continues into a true "jack" of a specific TOW poster/thread in post number 7 when mshermi begins to discuss *specific* financial details (and hardwood floors, of all things). So as I said, I'm sorry Texasgirl, but your assertion that it doesn't happen is incorrect.

<small>[ September 10, 2003, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: friendofk ]</small>

TexasGirl,
Come back to the private forum and be greatful you aren't the oc or woman who has oc, or better still, you are the one who built your marriage back to "stronger than before".

With a loving spouse who will never test the waters again for fear of an ow who acts exactly as Joshmom does. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Laughing in court.

We all know what our H's do with us later.

Nothing can compare to a life shared and POJA'D by two! ~~~
love
Debi

ps H adds he's happy we have a place away from ow...wish he had one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ September 10, 2003, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Texasgirl:
<strong>Joshmom, you lurk here and express your opinion freely, and there was a time when most of those here welcomed you. Your insights seemed to give us windows into the other side of the affair, that of the OW/mother of OC.

JM: I actually haven't lurked here or posted in quite a while. And I'm still willing to answer any questions, etc. or offer my opinion where I feel it's warranted - and I do it with respect. I always have.

Yet currently you seem to have become malicious both here on our board, as well as what you take back to your own board.

JM: Not sure where you get that. Yes, there are people that I think are hypocrits here. There are also some very nice people that have gotten the short end of the stick and I'm far enough past "affairyland" that I can see that now. I've gained some valuable insight here on what my actions have caused. For that I'm grateful.

It brings to mind the reason that maybe the BS's are hostile to OW. Maybe because that is what the OW is about. By having an affair with a MM she ridicules the marriage and all marriages. When the affair ends, she still must ridicule the wife, that is the only way she is happy.

JM: I've never ridiculed xMM's wife, except to say that she's the one holding the mirror that he has to look in every day. I will never understand HER staying with him (talking about HER here, not ALL BW's). But is that ridiculing her? I don't think so. I feel sorry for her. The man is a serial cheater, has 2OC with 2OW, and is still "friendly" with one of the OW (not me). He's someone that is just a schmuck. That his own colleagues don't like, or have respect for (nothing to do with his affairs - it's just that he IS a schmuck). And in his line of work, it's important to know who's got your back. And if I worked with him? I wouldn't trust him.

I, and I think the others, have never had a problem with OW posting so long as they did not create a hostiile environment.

JM: I wasn't trying to create or incite anything, all I asked was a little compassion or understanding, for someone that is 4 weeks post-partum, and trying to understand. I was hoping that she could get some honest responses, and not be slammed. Some of the responses WERE honest and heartfelt - that's what I think she was looking for. I think that she needed that.

One more thing, I don't think anyone here has ever "jacked" one of the posts from your board.
Maybe that speaks to the fact that a "lady" wouldn't stoop to an affair, a "lady" waits for a man who is free to be involved with her, a man who doesn't have commitments to another, good or bad.

JM: There are threads jacked all the time. Not lately though. And I am a "lady". One that made a good life out of a bad situation. For my self and most importantly, for my son.

Just my feelings, Just as you all are tired of what you call our sanctomoniousness, I am tired of yours. An OW has no rights, the OC does.
Hope you don't pass on your bitterness to your child.

JM: I'm not bitter. I'm past the bitterness. And yes, I made faces at xMM. I can't stand him. But I don't let HIM ruin my life OR my son's. Have you ever met someone that you just couldn't stand and wanted to stick your tongue out at them? Well, I did it. He didn't see me. I haven't had any contact with the man in years, and have let the past stay where it belongs - in the past. I've moved on with my life, and am very happy. I don't WANT contact with him. I'm GLAD that we don't have it - because he is no role model for a young boy. Just talking about MY situation here.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Thank you Joshmom for responding.

The man is a serial cheater, has 2OC with 2OW, and is still "friendly" with one of the OW (not me). He's someone that is just a schmuck. That his own colleagues don't like, or have respect for (nothing to do with his affairs - it's just that he IS a schmuck). And in his line of work, it's important to know who's got your back. And if I worked with him? I wouldn't trust him.

Then why did you choose HIM (the schmuck) to be Josh's Daddy? Seems odd.

Pep
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>
The man is a serial cheater, has 2OC with 2OW, and is still "friendly" with one of the OW (not me). He's someone that is just a schmuck. That his own colleagues don't like, or have respect for (nothing to do with his affairs - it's just that he IS a schmuck). And in his line of work, it's important to know who's got your back. And if I worked with him? I wouldn't trust him.

Then why did you choose HIM (the schmuck) to be Josh's Daddy? Seems odd.

Well obviously I didn't know about that when I became involved with him. And it's 10 years ago that we're talking about. Trust me, had I known more, and thought more I never would have become involved in the first place. And he's not Josh's "Daddy" - he's his FATHER. Big difference. That man doesn't deserve Daddy.
Pep
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

"No Contact" is I believe the married couple deciding that for the sake of their marriage the WS will not be involved in the emotional life of the OC, but will pay CS. From my personal perspective, it was done to get me thru a late in life pregnancy, with medical problems. (High BP,
40yr mother,possible tumor,and the stress of cheating husband).My H made his choice. The OW had her child alone. He chose NC to make our marriage the marriage it was meant to be.
If we had/have contact I don't think the OW in our case would have been happy. I would have insisted the visitation be every other weekend, calls once a week. Then alternate Christmas and Thanksgivings would have been ours with Easter thrown in occasionally, spring breaks would have alternated as she grew older, and the summers would have been 2 weeks at first, followed by half the summer as she got older.
I would have picked her for visits. The OW would pay for her flights home and flights to us we would have paid for. We would have wanted to know what sports she was playing, and other activities in school. Pictures every month. Copy of her report cards. teacher evaluations, copies of meetings with teachers. If we were going to be involved in her life, then we have been involved with her life.
Is that what the OW really wants? Do you understand that she cannot have just the MM involved with the OC, it is a package deal or nothing. The OW cannot put down restirctions on the involvement of the Wife. Now some fear for their child, no problem in my case, I would have loved another dau, and my son would have loved a little sister. I would have also checked with my state and inquired to see if there was any way the child could choose at a certain age to move in with us permanently. If so I would have really set out to win that child's heart. I would have made her mine.
But my H is not going to be involved with his OC without me. Our OW would not agree with that and she and her child lose.
Most women would have been won over by a child, but not the situation and the restrictions the OW wants to impose.

Be careful what you wish for.

Texasgirl

[QUOTE
But my H is not going to be involved with his OC without me. Our OW would not agree with that and she and her child lose.
Most women would have been won over by a child, but not the situation and the restrictions the OW wants to impose.

Be careful what you wish for.

Texasgirl[/QB][/QUOTE]

If all parties involved put the best interest of the child(ren) first that could work out great. But unfortunately, some OW/BW can't see the forest through the trees. If xMM wanted visitation, I would have been more than happy to give it - with BW involved. She's a daycare provider, and I can't see her harming a child. I would want assurances that she would be NICE to the child, too. Once I had that, and felt comfortable - I would have been fine. **NOTE - this is MY situation that I'm talking about - NOT ALL**. xMM was involved for the first year of my son's life, and when I put my foot down to sneaking around and said he had to do it on the up-and-up (including having BW know about it), all visitation stopped. So THAT I consider abandonment. And he knew that I would bend over backwards to make it work (back then) - including having BW involved. Why? Because (THEN) I wanted him to know his father. I felt that it was important to know his father. But not sneaking around to do it.
Luckily Josh was young enough that he doesn't know any better. He doesn't remember.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would want assurances that she would be NICE to the child, too. Once I had that, and felt comfortable - I would have been fine</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What would those assurances have been?

To see the oc at your home with supervised visits alone w/father?

That is usually a no-go if a man wants his wife to be his wife.

If you do not understand see BTDT's earlier post on what a man must do to secure his wifes trust again. It's under Twilights thread.

It is something ow do not get.

Ow here didn't. She expected the same amount of time to have H at her home without me as I was present and silent at first visit/pickup of oc. Ow simply spazzed out that I was there and cancelled all future visits to our home.

She called me and TOLD me so!

So therefore N/C is the way we went.

We're ok with it too.

Ow can have her H be daddy or not. Who knows?

Ok nuff said by me. This is "our situation" but it rings true in most of these horrible situations.

Debi

<small>[ September 11, 2003, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by gemini1:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would want assurances that she would be NICE to the child, too. Once I had that, and felt comfortable - I would have been fine</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What would those assurances have been?

To see the oc at your home with supervised visits alone w/father?

Debi</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely not - if he was going to be a father to this child I wanted him to be a FATHER. My relationship with him was OVER. I had no desire to "get him back" or anything like that. If visitation were to be on the up-and-up, like I said, then BW would have had to have been involved. I refused to sneak around or sneak my son around just so he could know his father. And the assurances probably could have come from a simple conversation between the adults that we would all agree on how to handle things, very easy.

I don't think having the w over for the visit to see if she is going to be nice to the oc is what has to be. In my case, I think the w would be nice to the oc. The only real people she likes are kids. She does not do well with adults. As a mom herself she is a good mom. I think that mm would have to be trusted enough to come clean if w can't handle the oc and tell us that is the case. I would love for my xmm to be a part of his child's life, but not under the circumstances that are here now. I also the w would have to be a part of the childs life as well.....like I said that is a given. Just as W should not make the rules neither should ow. It has to be in the best interest of the child. I just know myself that I could not handle a women that is only involved because she is married to the man of my child saying it's going to be this way and that way. I would not let my xh do it with another women why would I let the w do it just because she wants control of her h not being tempted to cheat again? That is not my problem. Who would want to be with xmm again anyway after all the lies have surfaced and the real person came out? Hello???????? Not all ow are these big bad girls who have no scrupples. I have totally repented for this, and even plan on having my child blessed so the sins of his father and myself don't fall back on him/her when the child is born. xmm father did it to him, and now he has done it to his child. Big double whammie. On top of me doing this. I don't want our sins following this child. May sound stupid, and before this happened to me, I probally would of said OMG I don't believe that person just said that.
JMO

Oh yeah......to Josh's mom...I can totally see xmm trying to see this child behind his w back and keep it still a secert. I won't stand for him coming around behind anyone's back when it comes to my child. I know how I have felt through this whole thing and I have to protect my child from that. I don't think a judge anywhere would make me allow xmm see him under those circumstances either. Josh's mom I don't blame you.

Well obviously I didn't know about that when I became involved with him. And it's 10 years ago that we're talking about. Trust me, had I known more, and thought more I never would have become involved in the first place. And he's not Josh's "Daddy" - he's his FATHER. Big difference. That man doesn't deserve Daddy.

Cool. I guess it's live and learn. Were you really young? Did you know he was married? What do you tell your boy about his FATHER? Do they have a relationship, or does Josh have a at home Daddy you're married to now?

Pep
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Needtomoveon said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have totally repented for this, and even plan on having my child blessed so the sins of his father and myself don't fall back on him/her when the child is born. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Need, let me assure you of one thing, your child is already blessed. The fact that the parents and/or adults involved made mistakes have no bearing on the child. You may have a lot of bad feelings about getting involved with your xMM or how you were treated. But, please don't confuse those feelings by believing your child will be "tainted" by sin. It does not work that way.

Because things did not work out the way you wanted with the xMM does not mean that you and your child cannot have a perfectly wonderful life. Your child will bring you a future full of joy, even without a full-time father.

Joshmom,

My H and I tried contact with his OC, a daughter. My situation is very odd because my H had to sneak the baby over to see me. The OW did not want me to have anything to do with the child. When she found out that I was seeing the baby, she delivered an ultimatum and made us stop contact.

My H was seeing the child on his own (without my knowledge) to try to keep an eye on the child. Much later on we tried contact again because the child was getting older and she was asking questions that tore at both my H's and my hearts. She would ask him 'what was wrong with her that she didn't have a family like everyone else?' 'Why couldn't she go to her dad's house?' He used to take the poor child to McDonald's and other public places because the OW would not allow her to come to our house.

My child or not, I could not bear the idea that a child was feeling so out of place. And, I felt that in the long run her self-esteem would be greatly affected. So, we started contact again even though the OW was not very happy with it.

I found out that I was pregnant with twins. I had a very high risk pregnancy and my babies were born prematurely -- a boy and a girl. I lost them both in the next two days. There is no way to describe the pain that my H and I went through at this time in our life.

It took a long time for me to get back on my feet after the death of the twins. When I finally started feeling like a human being again, we went to pick up my H's daughter. I will never forget that day. I was standing at the door of the OW's foyer. My H's daughter had come out but forgot something in her room. My H started down the hall to say something to her, but, unbeknownst to the OW, he had turned around and come back to the foyer.

The OW told me not to think that I was going to "steal" her child because my children died. This sentence was uttered with such malice that I felt like I had been slapped in the face with a brick.

I realize that I am rambling ... sorry.

The point of my story was that there are no absolutes. BSs sometimes behave badly, OWs sometimes behave badly and the MM in the middle always behaves like a jack*ss. It really depends on the amount of hurt and betrayal that is heaped on each individual. Everyone will react differently.

But, when the adults can't get their act together, contact can be a nightmare for everyone. Although it would be wonderful if your son's father would have wanted a relationship, it is better that he show his true colors than have your son wishing and wanting while he continually breaks his heart.

Part of my story is at the link below if you are interested (since I got sidetracked and started telling so much about it in the above post <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Heavenly's story:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=003016#000001

May we all find peace of mind and heart one of these days ...

love,
heavenly

<small>[ September 11, 2003, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: heavenlybody26 ]</small>

Dear Hevenly:
I just read your post to myself and Josh's mom and I just started crying.....then I read your story and the tears just won't stop. Although I never lost a child, I've lost around 5 pregnancy's. xh and I went through many years of treatment and drugs to have our girls. I have twin girls who will be 5 in Oct. I was pregnant with 3 two identical and 1 paternal but lost one of the Maternal's early in the pregnancy. I am amazed at your faith and your words of wisdom with all that you have been through. When I read what the ow said to you I just could not believe that someone could say something so mean. That was just evil. Yes, I'm pregnant. Can't believe I am. I'll be 41 in Oct. I'm infertiltle believe it or not. This has been the easiest pregnancy I've had. I really did not let it sink it until this week I'm almost 11 weeks. Almost past the 1 trimester....the scary part. I have a feeling YOU know what I'm talking about. Was with xh 3 years after the girls were born still no baby with him. So when I got pregnant with xmm it just blew me out of the water. Thank you for sharing. YOu have really been through a lot and our attitude and faith is so unbeivable and inspriational. You were very nice to Ow on this board as well.

The situation of having a OC is screwed up. I resent my H for having NC with his son. I can't see this boy growing up knowing his father didn't want anything to do with him. I have put my hate for the OW aside and make play dates so the kids can know their brother.

As for the 2 OC I brought into my messed up marriage. I let XMM see his kids weekly, even though he has no legal rights to the kids. He still lives with his XW and I refuse to let the kids go over there. She has repeatedly threatened to harm them. She has had mental problems before the A. I don't want to take the chance.

The reason I let XMM see the kids is I feel like they have a right to know their flesh and blood. My H is their daddy, he is also listed on the birth certificate, his choice. Xmm is papa. I made a horrible mistake in the past. But the past is the past and there is nothing I can do about. All I know is I am truly remorseful of what I did. I'm doing the best I can to do right by my children and may be one day can feel better.

crazymum, I agree with you. My child will have xmm last name though. I don't have a husband that would be what he needs. We will be doing a dna test....not that he has any doubt whose baby it it, he just hopes. But I don't have a problem giving it to him, he's paying for it, and I'll always have that proof. But by giving this child his last the baby will have roots to fall back on when he's older. I don't blame you for not wanting the xw to be a part of it. Not if she is threating. Sounds like you and H have a great relationship going on though. Why does your h not want any contact? Did you say that you have contact though?

My H excuse for NC with his OC is he's to busy. Real excuse is he is to selfish still thinking of himself. When he did have a chance to go see OC, he would go out and party with his friends instead. H knows I would like to go to court and get visitation rights, but he refuses. H is a 33 yr old man, but mentally still on 16. Life is just one big party for him. But I try and do what I can so the kids can know their brother. When we do visit (kids and I) I include her other two children in the play. On holidays when I bring gifts, I also bring a little something for the other two also. H hates the OW, but doesn't realize it isn't about her, its about the boy.

As with my 2 OC, they have my H last name and as stated he is also on the birth certificate. But there are days I often wonder if I did the right thing. These are XMM only children. Xmm took me to court after our daughter was born to try and get rights. He was denied based on the fact that she was born in a marraige. And I even admitted to the judge that she was his. My family and my H family know the ruth about the OC. XMm, as much as he wanted these kids and made sure mine and H family knew, he just told his family this past week. He takes the kids once a week for a few hours and gives me some money once in awhile to help out.

I'm going through a rough time healing. I sent his XW an apology letter last month.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>
Cool. I guess it's live and learn. Were you really young? Did you know he was married? What do you tell your boy about his FATHER? Do they have a relationship, or does Josh have a at home Daddy you're married to now?

Pep
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep - I was 24 when I met him, 25 when I became involved with him. I met him through a friend, and we became friends, and I did not want to get involved with him, because I knew that he was married. To make a long story short - he pursued me and I had just gotten out of a bad relationship, and he knew that and took advantage of it, and my own lack (at the time) of self-worth/self-esteem. I never thought about the consequences of my actions at the time. I broke up with him a number of times, and he offered to leave his W. I told him to do it for HIM if he was unhappy, not for me. He and his cousin were both involved with OW, and they'd planned on leaving at the same time. I finally woke up and realized that it was a dead end relationship and broke it off, and 2 weeks later found out I was pg. His W was 6 mos. pregnant at the same time. I was 30 at the time, and love kids, always have, and knew that I couldn't have an abortion. I thought about adoption, but couldn't go through with it. This was MY baby, and the window of getting pregnant is so small that I felt that I got pregnant for a reason. Maybe to wake me up, make me grow up, who knows. xMM, until I was 12 weeks, tried to convince me to have an abortion ("if you loved me you'd do this") and after 12 weeks tried to convince me to give him up for adoption. Sorry, I tried to make it short..
For the 1st year, xMM was involved - came to see him when he could - I was determined that my son would know his father. When I realized that he was seeing HIM as an excuse to see ME, I put a stop to it, and said he could see him any time he wanted, he just had to be consistent and not sneak around to do it. He hasn't had any visitation since. We used to run into him at a local park, and he would see him, and my son only knew him as the nice policeman we saw. He didn't know that was his father. xMM was grateful that I let him see Josh, because he cared about him very much (according to him). I never wanted to get back with him. Never had any desire. My eyes were opened to what kind of person he really was, and I didn't like what I saw. I haven't seen him for 3-4 years, and the last time he saw Josh he walked by him and didn't even look at him. Luckily Josh didn't know who he was. He's not the man that I fell in love with - I don't know that "he" ever really existed, except in some fantasy land. I can't stand the sight of him, and he knows that. He knows that I have no qualms about telling him exactly what I think of him, which is why every time we HAVE seen each other he scurries away like a cockroach when the lights come on. The man is twice my size and I make him uncomfortable. Too bad, is my opinion. He blames everything on everyone else, and will never accept responsibility for his part in things.
OK - sorry I went on so long. I tried to make it short.
No, Josh doesn't have a father figure. I'm still single, funny, I have trust issues with guys. Hopefully some day I can meet someone that I can trust and give my heart to, until then Josh is #1 in my life. And he asks questions, and I answer them - age appropriately. I tell him that yes he does have a father, but he can't be a good father to him so he decided to stay away. It's worked so far. Josh tells other people that he has a Daddy, but he forgot about him. It breaks my heart. But that's the price that HE has to pay for the sins of his parents. Not fair, but life isn't fair sometimes. He's a very happy, smart, beautiful boy and lacks for nothing in his life (except his father). and he's a GOOD kid.