Hi

H and I are travelling for him to meet OC for first time. This means he has to see OW too. I want to be supportive of contact with OC but not with OW. I am trying to do the 180 but keep slipping and making snid remarks to him and he is getting majorly peeved. How do I stop this or do I not give him support?

Do I let him do contact on his own or demand that I be included? OW does not want me there. H wants to speak to OW before he decides what he wants to do.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Please any advice on what to expect or do?? I'm at a loss and did not get many replies from my previous posts so feel kind of a drift and alone.

Tojo

Tojo,
Is visitation set up by court order?

You can have a neutral party get the oc, or you and your H can go together. Your H should not be going alone or discussing anything with ow.

All contact can be through you or another person, but should not be done through your H.

Have you read anything on this site concerning saving your marriage?

Neither of you should be doing anything without a Policy of Joint Agreement. You must CALMLY discuss what will happen concerning oc together.

If you are too hurt and angry at the moment and your H wants to help you he won't do anything until you both have had time to counsel together.
Steve Harley can be a blessing to counsel with in these situations.

You may call toll free 1-888-639-1639 or e-mail counsel@marriagebuilders.com to ask about fees or an appointment.

Go to the home page here and click on counseling and coaching center.

Blessings.

love
Debi

1. OW has no rights to tell you or your husband what you can and can't do. If he has been proven the father through DNA, he can have whomever he wants around that OC.

2. You should have the child delivered by a 3rd party to a restaurant or whatever. No need at all to go to her house or even see or speak with her.

3. Do you have a laywer? Have your attorney and her attorney arrange the visitations, set in court by law. She has no right to call any shots at all. You don't even have to speak with her. Have all contact through attorneys and that is that.

4. OW and her OC are NOT part of your family. She has no rights to expect "family" time with him and the OC as they are not a family.

hi Thanks for the replies but I have a few delimas on some of them:-

Is visitation set up by court order?

No, neither party has gone through courts. My H would rather avoid this as he thinks this will make a 'working' relationship or cordial relationship impossible for the OW and OC. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Contact-
The OW refuses to use third party contact. Plus H wants to see her to organise DNA test and maintenance allowance. H also wants to work on OW so that our family get access to OC and OC gets to come and see us alone, etc. H does not believe he has any rights without OW say so. and no, no contact made with attorney as H wants to avoid any animosity. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

H also said if I don't like how he wants to work it, I know where the door is.

2. You should have the child delivered by a 3rd party to a restaurant or whatever. No need at all to go to her house or even see or speak with her.

I agree and I have mentioned neutral ground and H agrees but OW has two OC from previous marriage and H feels it depends on their routine to where they go. H understands I don't trust him or want them to be alone. OW wanted dinner friday and saturday with H. I demanded no way, no dinner. H agreed.

H can not see or understand how he cannot see or speak to OW if he wants to see OC. I wish he would get it all sorted legally - visitation rights, etc but he refuses.

I have copied and pasted as I do not know any other way to get some of your advice onto my post so hopefully I have not made you confused!

OW wants him to be with her, she has said this. H tells her (or so he says) that it is not going to happen. That his family is with me and hopefully OC can join in but not her.

Should I be happy with this and let him work things his way? He is hoping that by the time OC is 18mths then I would be involved to alot more amicably than if I went in straight away. I am more for the philosophy that i should be there from the beginning but he is having none of this but wants me at the hotel so he can come back and talk to me about what was said etc.

Do I trust him? No way. But I want to do the 180 so surely I should zip up if I can't say something supportive?

Aaaaargghh!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

When I think of how it will look to family and friends I feel so embarressed! Is this normal? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Thanks for the advice so far, sorry I can't follow it too much though I would love too. Please keep them coming. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Tojo

GET A LAWYER IMMEDIATELY. These OW are not to be trusted. She can't tell him a damm thing. You tell your husband either this gets done legally to protect your family and it's future or HE KNOWS WHERE THE DOOR IS.

Your husband may not be the childs father at all. Don't just assume he is. Demand a test before shelling out one dollar. She can't collect anything legally until that is determined.

You are letting her control the situation, that she has no right to control. You need to tell your husband that by handling this legally, protects everyone.

He is full of garbage. Stand up for yourself and your family. No way is he to go there alone, without you. If she doesn't like you with her OC, to bad. Tell her to call a lawyer then. She can't make anything difficult.

Personally, without a DNA test PROVING he is the father, I would stay away and not send dime one.

Sorry to be harsh. But if he goes this weekend, then you should too. Also, demand that she bring the child to a Perkins or something. No need to go to her house at all. To bad if she has other children. That is her problem, not yours.

Tojo it sounds as if your H is still in a fog.

Please read what you can and get into some counseling together.

It sounds as if he's allowing ow to call the shots and that must stop!

He must not do anything you two are not in agreement of.

Talk to him before this weekend. Do not travel to ow and oc until you are ready.

He showed you the door? I mean,if you don't like what is going on he wants you to leave?

Read plan A and plan B here also. Your H is being disrespectful of you and that must stop for you to continue on together.

I hope a wiser older member comes along with help soon.

I'll pray for you.

love
debi

The more I think about your situation, the more I think it is you that needs the attorney. She can't make any decisions. If she wants CS, let her go through the courts and get it, then the courts will set up visitation.

If your husband insists on letting her call the shots, you need to get your children protected first. Get the attorney and go for support. Your husband can say he wants to stay in the marriage and all, but by allowing this to go like it is, and telling you to let him handle it? No way. Get the attorney for yourself.

Thank you, your replies brought tears to my eyes. Also a smile and laugh when you said about showing him the door!

Lynn I will first reply to your post-

He absolutly refuses to get a lawyer. His reasons are she has never said 'no' yet to anything and that he wants to treat her like a human being and not a piece of s@*t. (sorry for blasformy)A DNA test was done via CVS whilst OW was preg. 99/9% +. However, H wants to see childs DNA drawn from child before believing it.

I am going this weekend but no not to see OC which I believe you meant. What is Perkins? We live in the UK and coming to USA.

Gemini-

I am having counselling, he comes when I want him to - but grudgingly.

Yes he is allowing OW to call the shots, and us talking just ends up in arguments and frustration.

Yes if I don't like it then he is showing me the door. The cheek! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I'm starting to get angry so I will calm down and take a break . . .

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> I'm feeling better - kind of!!

Basically this wknd he wants go there on the Friday get the DNA test done, see OC saturday and sunday, spend evenings with me. Perhaps I should do some damage in retail therapy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I feel very vindictive as I feel I can't do anything except leave. Surely this is not the solution. I can't seem to get him to see a lawyer/attorney, not have lunch with her, be at her place if she has no cover for her kids. I just feel so helpless and that I should swallow and shut up!

I would like to see how this weekend goes and see what she says and does/tries. He says he doesn't trust her. But I still want to put my two cents worth in which then causes arguments and threats.

Why is it so easy to want to throw it all in? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
I'm sorry I'm such a mess and not following your suggestions but please your points are not a waste of time as they are in my mind of what to do if OW is a nightmare this weekend and I realise Iwill always give him grief.

Does the frustrationa nd grief part end, do any of us actually move on and still be with WS? It seems like all just a dream. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Hugs and thanks for the prayers.

Jo

Hi Lynn

I spoke to my attorney last Friday. I am entitled to CS and a roof over the kids heads until youngest meets 18 yrs or end of education, whichever comes first. I'm happy with that and am thinking of this if this weekend is such a nightmare that I can't carry on.

I told H that his children (those with me) would have a man in the house that they would see as their father and who would have more influence on them than he if we seperated. This enfuriated him but it is the truth. I am not going to wait around for him for years to realise what he has. I am yng and can find someone who loves me and wants to be with me and will put me before OW. H believes his money will control what I do or don't do just as he is hoping it will control OW and OC re contact! I have told him what by law he has to provide but he still thinks he can make it difficult for me. Yes he can to a point, but I'll get over it.

Anyway, why am I thinking like this? IS it a sign that I've really made my mind up but just procrastinating? When I do parts of the 180 he does seem to stop and think a little about how he has hurt me and what he would like. Then he loses patience and says t is easier on his own where he can see his kids - any of them- whenever he likes without reporting or considering anyone else. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Hugs

Jo

tojo,,,,,, your h needs to understand that YOU are part of him if your marriage is to survive this. his attitude sounds like that of my w's om. he has told his w that it is none of her business. he also tried to tell me the same thing. this went over like a rock.

when your h shows you the door you need to tell him not let it hit him in the a$$ on his way out. he needs to remember who skrewed up here.

enough of my lectureing. as far as your visitation goes. you most definately need a good lawyer.

this is where i get confused about reasons some have choosen nc. if your h and you are going rebuild your m then the 2 of you need to be involved. whether she likes it or not. her opinion doesn't matter just like fh's om's opinion means nothing to me. you need to take control of the situation. set your boundaries and stick to them.

i see no reason he needs to see oc and ow without you. the first time our oc saw her bio dad fh and i went together. when he picks her up and drops off most times it is me or the kids that handle that part. fh does on the rare occasion that i am working and kids are out somewhere. but those times are rare.

he did tell fh that it really bothers him when our oc runs to me at drop offs. i say to bad for him, get used to it.

i don't know about the neutral ground site stuff but for us om picks up and drops off at our home or the babysitter during mid weeks. i am not delivering grace to him. if he wants to see her he needs to make the extra effort. no one ever brought my oldest son to see me. i drove the 100 plus mile round trip on average twice a week with visitations and coaching him thru his youth sports days.

Thanks for the reply pops <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I do not have a problem with him seeing OC, I support it as at the end of the day the child should not loose out.

I guess my problem at the moment is that I can't stick to my boundaries. At first I said NC, then I came to my senses because OC would loose out. Then I said ok to contact but not alone with OW, on neutral ground, no lunch/dinner, I go with him to the country but not first few times to OW. (However I really would like to be there from the beginning) H hopes OW will accept sooner rather than later and that if after several visits she still says no then he says he will have NC. I don't believe this as by then he'll love OC to bits - and so he should if his the father. He is taking photos of me and out kids to OW and is even hoping she'll want to meet this weekend - yeah right!

Sometimes I think we both live in fairytale land. I guess what I must do is carryon with this and see what happens. If I get involved sooner rather than later then yes it will help me alittle. If however there seems to be no sign of that happening I guess the door will have to hit him on his @*s on the way out. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Thank you so much for all your advice and support, I'll let you know how it goes.

Hugs Tojo

Tojo,

These are my thoughts:

don't let your H see OC without you, or at the least , with OW. Never. Not now, not ever.Do not believe for a second that after H sees OC he will stop seeing the oC if the visits are not working for you. He will not- I am living proof of that-H continued visits with his OC against my wishes, and even lied when he was supposed to not visit while we worked on us.OW was only too happy to accomodate his sneaking, even though she expected us to all be one big happy family.The end result--we are separated now.

Second,you are lucky that you live in another country.Gosh, I would love that. But, nonetheless, OW cannot control visits. If you are not ready to see OW, go with H to pick up child, sit in car, have H pick child up at front door, do not have him go in, and stay in car with child. Visit with child, stay at your hotel, go to a park, whatever, but watch H . At least keep OW away.

I think you should file for legal separation, and protect yourself. Screw protecting OW. Let her worry about herself. If H doesn't have balls to go legal route with OW, at least I hope you do.
good luck.

Hi Unhappy wife

Thank you for your thoughts, they are very similar to my fears.

I do not believe H will be able to have NC after having seen OC. Therefore I know that if push came to shove, then me and my kids will go so he can have contact with OC. If OW is not prepared to let me and my kids have contact in the VERY near future then I'm not prepared to wait until she does (which by the way I relly don't think after having thought about it that she will want me around). H will then be a part time father to all his kids. Sad but true.

H has already found that I am not willing to tolerate lies where OW and OC are concerned. I like your ideas of me waiting in the car whilst he goes to the door for OC. H says that he does not want to go in to OW house but desparetly wants contact with OC so I believe that he will.

I am looking for an attorney at the moment in the state the OC lives to find out our rights there. H believes we do not have any and therefore will not speak to an attorney. In UK my lawyer believes being in different countries will cause many problems for visitation but surpringly enough not CS (unless of course it is the other way around and then the UK s@cks on that part of its own citizens).

Does this mean I have 'balls'? I hope so 'coz it sure doesn't feel like it!

One piece of good news is my doc refuses to prescribe anti-depressants saying he thinks I'm strong and not needing them. Thanks to MB and all you advice out there I do believe I can get through this whatever the end result.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Hugs

Tojo

Hi Tojo,

I am sorry you are having to go through this. I am an American but live here in England. In some respects you are lucky that in England/UK the corts are so very pro wife/mother of the child. Fathers have no real rights. If you and he are not married but Partners than he has zero rights to the children. Believe it or not this alone gives you a great deal of power and control over your situation.

Can I ask you did your H give a sample for the DNA test? If he did not than how do you know the child is his? Depending upon the state where the OW lives your lawyer might be able to handle a lot of the agreements. But as others have stated NEVER and I mean NEVER give the OW any money till praternaty has been established! This can never be stressed enough. Also does your H work for an American company? If so the OW could have his wages garnished. Something else to think about.

As far as your H and his dictations on how to handle the OW well inform him the door works both ways. Maybe show him financially as well and child input on what he would have here in the UK. From all my knowledge via law school over here you really have all the power to call the shots. Take solace in that you really do have choices and try not to let your H make you think you do not. He is in no position to dictate you how everything should be done.

Here are a couple of links that might help you:

Legal Resources for each State:
http://www.mv.com/ipusers/larc/national.htm

Legal resource for each state and subjects:
http://www.findlaw.com

I hope this helps. So sorry about everything.

In this case I would contact an attorney right away. Get your kids taken care of first. Then make damm sure a DNA test is done. Who knows where she has been. Then see to it that court ordered visitation is set up. At that point, she can do nothing about you seeing that baby. You can then work on the marriage with out her in your life. SHe has no place in your life, so don't let her in!

Tojo:
You have every right to see that child and be a part of that child's life if you wish to. She has no say so unless you are a child abuser or drug user which is does not sound as if you are. Just as you told your h that is you two seperated your kids will have another man in there life, he has no say so. This is no different. If my xh chooses to bring a women into my twins life I have no say so unles it is harmful to them. It's just life. I am the ow pregnant and I know if xmm wants to see oc his w and family will be a part of it end of story. You say a dna test was already done through cvs? I'm surprised that your h wants another test done. It is accurate, and the results are lawful. But at least she is willing to do that. She is at least trying to accomadate your h with certain things. I personaly don't think I would do 2 DNA test. That is just me personaly though unles of course the first one got screwed up somehow. Lynn is also right that you don't have to give her one dime until dna is proven, but the court will look at that cvs test as the results. I would personaly never denie xmm not to see his child without his w though....the first obligation is to my kids. Who knows depending how it goes over the weekend, your h may decide to see an attorney afterall. A lot of emotions are flying right now and you are showing him your willing to deal with this. Just don't let him step on you through it. You do have rights too. Good Luck

Hi all and thank you for the replies and support.

I will try and reply to the last three posts and let you know how the weekend went.

MoiNouvelle

Hi, he and I are just partners so in that respect I am lucky here in UK. H (easier to label him this than partner all the time), realises that he has no rights but is still determined his financial situation will count for a lot. Hard to explain but he is hoping that he could make it hard for me to move away, etc. I have spoken to lawyer who basically calls this a load of 'dung' regardless of his financial situation he cannot dictate what or where I go and with whom.

H did not give a sample for DNA test exactly but from a previous DNA test OW tried to get him for, his results were used. Hence why he wants to see DNA swabs taken from all live parties in his presence in case of any mishaps. (I can dream). H does not work for an american company but does have assets which will cause problems. We are all aware of this which is one reason why to smoth things along he paid CS from the beginning. He is also helping out with mortgage payments! He is being very generous but says will stop helping and have NC if DNA is negative. Which we are both hoping for (him more so after having seen OC).

Thanks for the links, I will use them shortly.

LynnG

H has finally agreed to contact an attorney in OW state to find out any legal access regardless of marriage. He will not be letting OW know he is doing this unless she starts being unresonable where I am concerned and refuses me and OC contact in the long run.

OW does not have aplace in my life but h wants to have say in OC life which means I will have a partial place in her life and her in mine. It is unrealistic to think otherwise. However where I will have a large role in her child's life, she will be playing no role in my childs life. Kind of sadistic satisfaction on my part as she would prefer it the other way around.

Needtomoveon

Yes OW has been accomodating in somethings but only those that seem to suit her and not H or myself. A lot of flying emotions around right now is an understatement.

This weekend:

H got to airport before me and went for DNA test. We had agreed we would meet at hotel so he got time to see OC alone. Yes OW was there. No I didn't like it but it was to be in a hospital so figured that was pretty nuetral ground! Anyway, test done, niceties past etc. I was expecting H to spend 4 hours approx with them so did not rush to hotel. H went to hotel after only 1.5 hours and got worried when I still hadn't turned up after two! (This gave me some perverse pleasure!) Anyway OW not happy H wanted to get to hotel to see me, she wanted to go to her place. They argue and all that fun stuff. (I know because I was having him followed).

H upset, OC not what he expected nor are his feelings. He expected to feel the same way about OC as he does to our two. Plus he couldn't see anything of him in the boy. He begins to have second thoughts and hopes DNA is wrong. H also believes OW had another agenda - OW and h together. He says he does not want this. We talk, I actually encourage him to see OC next day in case it is his then he needs to get over this. Plus I am happy that I am having him followed. The only place they can be is at her place due to her two other kids. Yet she manages to persuade her sister to come over for a couple of hours to watch so they can talk. Why she couldn't go out I don't know, using OC as excuse with all the rubbish you need for going oout. I let H know I am not happy about this and feel OW is trying to let H see what being a 'family' with her will be like. H goes for 6 hours rather than ten again saying he wants to get back to see me. I know my H can't be at our home with our kids for ten hours never mind some elses so I am finding this hilarious, frustrating, helpless but hilarious. SUnday is the same, yet for one thing. I drop h off at OW place. OW blows a fit, worried neighbours will talk, etc. SOrry but I have no sympathy she should have thought about that the first time. H texts me not to pick him up. I conventiently don't get this text and pick him up again after only 6 hours rather than the ten she wanted. Again OW blows a fit. Please bear in mind she has not even seen me so does not know what I look like or what car I drive until H gets in it. I have seen her a few times when she has dropped h at hotel.

Anyway, long story short. If DNA + visitation twice a year until OC aware of his father then our children become involved, OC travels between US and UK during holidays. We go to US a few times a year as a family and not just H. Before our kids involved, OW and I to meet and H sees OC when I am there, apart from odd occassion where I may not be able to make it. If OW makes a move on H, he will call and ask me to come or if I can't he will go through courts and not her regarding child. Likewise if OW turns up on one of h business trips(one of her tricks). I have typed up an email to OW from h (at his request) putting in writing what h and I agree on and what our plans are. If things go weel OC will have plenty of opportunities, if she and I do not communicate at all, OC will suffer. OW is very status symbol aware which we can offer OC so we are hoping this attitude will help us.

Travelling half way around the world to see OC at the most 6 times a year is no relationship but is the best we can offer to OW and OC.

Is this fair to OW/OC/us and our children? please give views from all stand points.Long message and I'm sorry but I hope it flows and makes sense!

hugs

Jo

Tojo:
Even I who is an ow thinks it's more than fair. YOU have every right to be in whatever is in your h live. I've said that from the beginning. I know that if by some chance my xmm wants contact his w will be involved and that's the way it is. Is it better for my child. YES. It's a part of his life. Bottom line. I love the fact you had him followed. I love it!!!! Smart move until your trust is back. I'm glad it's working out for you and even though you were not happy with all the events you were willing to compromise and bend in order to show good faith on your end too. Yes, an attorney is good. You have a lot of assets and your in different parts of the world. The amount of time you spend can be quailty and that can be better than quanity. If she is willing to go through the dna thing again it is probaly his. But I understand your feelings. If she is so worried about status then why have him come to her house at all? That makes no sense. It sounds like you acted very classy in the situation. I hope this all works out for every party involved.

Thanks M! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I had him followed because as you said I don't trust him but this way he feels that I am trusting him a little (or that he is getting his own way! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) and I guess this makes things easier all around, atmosphere wise anyway. i do feel kind of sneeky and huilty though for it. Oh well, I'll just grin and bear it and hope all this will show I can believe and trust him again.

Thanks for being there even though you could be perceived as the 'enemy'. I value your input because you are on the other side and there are always three sides to these stories and not just two. Having this logic though when I'm in pain is none existant so for warned is forarmed! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Take care

hugs

Jo

Hello Tojo,

As far as the DNA test please do not take this the wrong way but your Partner is stupid for giving money when nothing was proven. For the DNA test to show a positive your Partner's DNA would have had to been proven. How did the OW gain a swab from your Partner if he did not provide one? Did she have swabs from all her other men in her life and by elimination say it was your Partner? If that is the case than she probably is lying.

First your situation in England. Your solicitor can give you the best advice but your Partner has no rights to your children. Father's rights movement has just started here. It will take a good decade to get to the same point where Father's rights are in the States. Hence, your Partner cannot dictate one thing to you but he will be forced to pay child support. There is also a crucial case that started to go through the courts about four or five months ago where female partners are fighting for the rights to assests gained durring relationship. Again your solicitor will know more about it. I have not been tracking the case.

As far as the OC in the states if the child is your Partner's than he has full rights. The OW cannot really dictate who he is allowed to be around. Something you said struck me. You stated the OW is worried about apearances. It might be that she is worried about money. IT seems your Partner is giving quit a lot of money to her. I would stop till the DNA test is proved positive. As far as his assets in the States that depends upon the state. I know there is a huge ex-pat population in Florida so you might even be able to find a lawyer that is British there.

I have one major concern and that is your Partner gave a lot of money to the OW before establishing praternaty if it is proved not to be his the OW could still try for money stating that Your Partner thought it was his and therefore should be made accountable for the child. IT is a very small chance but still it is there. As always go through the courts and leave nothing to chance. It is always better to have everyting in writting and never let the OW dictate terms. It should be agreeded upon for all parties not just one.

I really am sorry you are going through this. Your family and your realtionship is more important. Take what ever time you need to heal.