When you hear your H has been/is involvedin EMR and a child is on it's way you need to hire an attorney immediately.

1. Even if you plan on trying to work it out, those are your intentions. Your UH has already proven he is not trustworthy, and has to earn that back. By getting a good divorce attorney, you can legally separate, and protect family assests for you and your children. If, after OC is born, and maybe the marraige doesn't make it, your kids would be already protected. If you do make it, this is a wise idea. You and your children should always come first.

2. You will need a laywer if you and your H chose to have contact. This way OW can't manipulate or twist or harrass. You can have visitation,without ever having to say one word to or even see OW. If that is what you want. If OW starts phoning granparents, uncles, etc. One word to your attorney, and she can be buried in harassment charges. She has no right to contact and harrass members of your family. By keeping tabs on her and her activities, you can even sue her!!

3. If you couldn't have children, and your H now has OC, an attorney is a must. You would then be able, IN SOME CASES, to get soul custody of the child. This has happend in many cases. OW has pushed and pushed, harrased, and overall gone off the deep end. Her XMM and his wife would take OC and OW would have a fit cause wife would be holding child, or the XMM and his wife clearly presented a more stable enviroment. Now, if you have an attorney, and all the OW antics are recorded and noted, it would be much easier to get custody. At the least, it would keep OW from harrassing you and your family.

4. It is immature and just plain stupid to try and handle this without an attorney. Amicable agreements on the side mean diddly. Get the attorney, get the tests, get court documentation of everything so you and your family are legally protected. EVEN IF YOU ARE WORKING OUT THE MARRIAGE. Once everything is done in a legal manner, then it will be much easier to focus on your marraige and therapy and time to heal and move on. It keeps the OW out of your life.

You can have this anyway you want it. If you want NC, set it up. If you want contact with OC, fine, but that does not mean contact with OW. YOU decide what is best for you and your family. YOU and your attorney will then see that things get set up just so.

Please, I know you are emotional, but get legal representation IMMEDIATELY. NO MATTER WHAT YOU INTEND TO DO.

LynnG,

I have to say, you are right about getting legal representation. I think had I known about OC earlier, I'd have done the same thing. Just to see if in hindsight, some things could have been handled differently.

It is good advice to get an attorney, regardless of what position you are in, in regards to contact/no contact/ fresh discovery.

There are some things that a Betrayed Spouse can do to protect herself and her children. Unfortunately, the laws don't regard the children of the marriage when considering CS etc.

I'm not saying "cheat OC out of what's due them" etc. I'm stating that it is good advice to get an attorney. You don't know how things turn out and it does well to have level headed representation.

I also advice a good marriage counselor if BS and WS are willing to work on restoring their marriage. It's a lot to think about upon discovery, but so necessary to avoid problems "down the road".

Twiisty

Yup. Also the children of the marriage need to be protected, and the only one to do so is their mother.

I agree, marriage counseling is a good thing. Marriages can survive after all of this. But to make it much smoother, get the lawyer.

Once again Lynn you are on target. BW's please listen to what she is saying. I think it you should be commended in helping these women that are having to deal with not only the fall out from a ema, but a child.
Your advice is sound and just. If contact is wanted with oc it needs to be done without OW around and if nc is what you want you can have that too. BW's don't be a victim, you can reclaim your lives without OW.

Ok LynnG,
Add my situation your list of scenarios... I’ll try to keep it short and simple… and maybe you may have some advice for me… I agree with much of what you have said, though I do have contact with OW/OC.

H had A… I learn of child on the way… insisted on an attorney…

We got an attorney… we find out that OW has terrible history of Domestic Violence & had a child removed from her custody for Failure to Protect him from beatings of an exboyfriend.. we filed to establish paternity and legitimate, prior to child’s birth.
DNA comes back and OC is his. We begin contact.

OW needs daycare… we provide it, in our home. Begin to see neglect, report it… OW investigated… No more Daycare… OW keeps OC from us for a month… months to prove abuse and neglect… Judgment: Child WAS at risk of abuse and neglect at time of petition, apparently not anymore though.
H was given Parenting time… 51+% each week. No cs because Parenting time is so close to 50/50. Our attorney talks to another attorney asking that she take over, doesn’t fully understand all the ins and outs and she felt the 2nd attorney would do better for us.

Year later, OW needs Daycare provider again. We step up again… Now OC with us nearly 80% of each week.

OW files to establish Holiday schedule, no problem… Mediation took care of that
Now, our 2nd attorney no longer contacts us after we attempt to contact her…

3 months later, OW begins giving excuses as to why she can’t pick up child… pattern develops… every other week… OW loses/quits job… loses insurance… Cancels Daycare situation with us.
7 months after that, She begins new set of excuses for not picking up OC… Goes 54 days without seeing child… picks her up for 6 hrs… brings her back…

OC sees me as her mother. I don’t deny I love this child as if she were my own. As far as I am concerned, she is and should have been my own.

How’s that for a twist on Contact??

I agree that the children of the marriage should be considered first, before OC… but seeing as at the time there was no child of my marriage (and OW has horrible history) I want to protect Lil Bit… And now our coming baby.

Our state requires 4 months of no contact/support before filing abandonment charges. (Of course we get NO C/S or any offer of monetary help from OW)
Curious if the 6 hrs breaks that and we must start anew…

Its been a wild ride… and I do not see a peaceful end in the future…

lynng,,,,,,, you have made some god sound points although you seem to be carrying a great deal of anger. i hope you can find some peace somewhere.

i do disagree with you on the mother being the only one protecting the c's. i'm the dad and feel very strongly that it was i that protected my 7 c's from suffering thru a potentially life altering event.

No matter what the situation is get a good lawyer. The smartest thing I ever did was to get one hell of a lawyer. My lawyer protected my rights and my children. First thing I did is apply for is legal separation and CS.

It bothers me when I see some posters feel as Lynn's approach as being too bitter / harsh and angry... I don't see it that way at all. I see a woman hurt by two very selfish people... and the smartest move yet is getting a good lawyer.

I didn't do it to get back at the oc, I did to protect my children.

That was over 6 years ago, things have change a lot. We now have full custody and my H and I have build our marriage back.

I hope the best for all involved.

Who's to say Lynn is bitter or harsh or angry? We have all been there. This is Lynn's way right now...let her say what she wants and don't worry about it so much. Sheesh. I wish people would quit citing others as bitter and angry. Hell, who hasn't been? And justifiably so.

I call her "direct" and she is giving sound advise. And everyone should "listen up".

My husband and I got a "faux" divorce in 2000 to protect my share of the equity in our house (our last asset) from a very aggressive OW. He filed a Quit Claim deed turning over the homestead solely to me. It was a wise move since she is adamant about trying to get old business assets that no longer exist and profit from a sale of a building we sold in 1999...and she only met my husband late in 1998.

Some people have more crust than a loaf of bread...and we ALL need to protect ourselves from these predators.

Amazing Stace...You need a new lawyer, Schweetie. The one you have is not serving you and you need some sound counsel with all that is going on with your family. Baby Mac is almost here! I can just imagine the excitement building in your home. Does Lil Bit understand she is getting a brother? I can't imagine anyone declaring 6 hours being the deal breaker for four months of abandonment. If it is custody you want, then the OW's neglect needs to be featured...I wouldn't encourage her to come over to see Lil Bit...not to keep her from her bio-Mom but because bio-Mom is a lousy Mom and Lil Bit is thriving and growing in your nurturing household.

Catnip =^^=

Catnip said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who's to say Lynn is bitter or harsh or angry? We have all been there. This is Lynn's way right now...let her say what she wants and don't worry about it so much. Sheesh. I wish people would quit citing others as bitter and angry. Hell, who hasn't been? And justifiably so.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think there was only one reference to anger and it was said with a very positive wish for peace. However, I did feel anger and bitterness in the post, especially when LynnG stated:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you couldn't have children, and your H now has OC, an attorney is a must. You would then be able, IN SOME CASES, to get soul custody of the child. This has happend in many cases. OW has pushed and pushed, harrased, and overall gone off the deep end. Her XMM and his wife would take OC and OW would have a fit cause wife would be holding child </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am a BS who was infertile at the time of my H's affair. I know how much I wanted a child and how much I love the children I now have. To even consider trying to take away another woman's child, seemingly out of spite, is impossible for me to understand.

Catnip, I always believe it is a good idea to get a lawyer, when needed. In fact, I rarely give legal advice on MB because there are so many variations in state laws that I believe it is essential that each individual have a specialist from their own area who is familiar with their local system.

Just as you may agree with LynnG's approach, there are others of us who do not. I believe that we are just as free to express our point of view and perhaps save a few souls in the same situation that we are.

Cat, you just had the experience of seeing an ex-OW who was trying to work the legal system to wring every dime she could out of you and your H. I believe your H was rightfully repulsed by this approach. He saw the ex-OW as a greedy and self-centered person.

If I were in your shoes and I went out and got a lawyer to try to hide all my assets, get as much money for my kids as possible, etc., I could tell you what would happen. My H, knowing his personality, would believe that he was caught between TWO money-grubbing women. I doubt that would endear him to me.

I can also tell you from first-hand experience that once the legal system is involved, the dynamics of the entire situation change. Every WS who made a mistake is not automatically untrustworthy. And, in my own case, we have always had an informal CS arrangement without any problem. The OC gets a generous CS amount plus lots of extras when needed.

Every situation is different. I try to let others know what happened in my situation so that they can use what they can and discard the rest. I have a problem when a person with very strong views presents them as the gospel, particuarly when there are new people coming to the board all the time and the advice that was good in one situation may be harmful in another situation.

I have been blessed. My H was remorseful and he wanted to work on the marriage. But, at the same time, I cannot close my eyes and pretend the child does not exist. My H has a child and he will for the rest of his life. Does it hurt? Of course, it does. But, if I stoop to the ex-OW's tactics, my personal belief is that I am no better than she was.

I am sure that LynnG has her reasons for the strong views she presents, but I also have my reasons for my own. Just as she has the right to present those views, I don't think my opinion is any less valuable to some.

love,
heavenly

WIZ - Did you and you H live in the same house when you separated or did you have to have separate addresses? Did you tell the lawyer the truth about your situation, or did you say you were getting divorced? Did you and H have to get separate lawyers? How did you end up with custody of OC? I am in the beginning of this whole mess and am not getting good legal advise from lawyers so far. Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by heavenlybody26:
<strong>I think there was only one reference to anger and it was said with a very positive wish for peace.

=^^= I don't think someone new to the site and probably just weeks out of D-Day should be chastised for their feelings or what they say...even if it does sound angry or bitter. I just get so tired of those words because they were once favorite buzz word(s) of militant "guests" in the past. It "feels" like those words are being used to modify behaviors, which I don't think is healthy...especially in the beginning. I identified with Lynn as I was a lot like she is when I first came here and occasionally still can light right up if my button gets pushed. I would hate to be on a forum where only polite discouse sans passion was the order of the day and our words had to be carefully measured. After the anger comes reason and acceptance and finally healing, I believe. I am sure the reference to the words "bitter and angry" were intended to relay a "positive wish" ...I just hate those words whether in reference to any of us or any of them. I guess I just understand anger. My cupboard full of chipped dishes is testimony to that.

However, I did feel anger and bitterness in the post, especially when LynnG stated:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you couldn't have children, and your H now has OC, an attorney is a must. You would then be able, IN SOME CASES, to get soul custody of the child. This has happend in many cases. OW has pushed and pushed, harrased, and overall gone off the deep end. Her XMM and his wife would take OC and OW would have a fit cause wife would be holding child

=^^= And perhaps in this point in time and with regards to special circumstances we are not privvy to, those feelings are justified. We all have experienced these feelings...and they come to pass in time...there is a process.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am a BS who was infertile at the time of my H's affair. I know how much I wanted a child and how much I love the children I now have. To even consider trying to take away another woman's child, seemingly out of spite, is impossible for me to understand.

=^^= Hmmm. I wonder if that is what she meant...Lynn? Could you elaborate? Is that what you meant?

Just as you may agree with LynnG's approach, there are others of us who do not. I believe that we are just as free to express our point of view and perhaps save a few souls

=^^= We all come here in varying stages of duress and react differently. However, most of us evolve into something much kinder and gentler as time moves forward and there is healing in our lives. I know we all find our own way eventually; sometimes our pain is angry but the soothing waters of the forum did much to quell my rage. Give her time...

Cat, you just had the experience of seeing an ex-OW who was trying to work the legal system to wring every dime she could out of you and your H. I believe your H was rightfully repulsed by this approach. He saw the ex-OW as a greedy and self-centered person.

If I were in your shoes and I went out and got a lawyer to try to hide all my assets, get as much money for my kids as possible, etc., I could tell you what would happen. My H would believe that he was caught between TWO money-grubbing women. I doubt that would endear him to me.

=^^= Whoa...I hope I am reading this wrong and not reading between the lines. Are you alluding to my getting an attorney to save my house? Do you think I was money-grubbing to insist on a Quit Claim? I hope I am being paranoid.

And, in my own case, we have always had an informal CS arrangement without any problem.

=^^= You are so fortunate! And in such a minority, Heavenly...that rarely happens. I am happy for you.

The OC gets a generous CS amount plus lots of extras when needed.

=^^= You must have it to give. Unfortunately, we do not. Perhaps someday we will but we have a lot of financial recovering to do first.

I have a problem when a person with very strong views presents them as the gospel, particuarly when there are new people coming to the board all the time and the advice that was good in one situation may be harmful in another situation.

=^^= If you think some of our gals have "strong views", you should read a few threads on the other board. Makes us look like pikers. I was never scared away by one or two members strong views when I first came here. If someone said something that didn't fit for me, there were many, many others who offered sound advise. No one chased me away. When I came here in May 99, I was like a cougar in a cage who had been poked at with a stick. The people on this site were kind and understanding and allowed me my soapbox, as preposterous as I was. I am grateful that those old posts are almost impossible to ferret out.

But, if I stoop to the ex-OW's tactics, my personal belief is that I am no better than she was.

=^^= And I was no better than the OW when I harbored such ill will against her those first couple years. Today I don't feel like that at all...I am sorry for her "alone-ness"...it bothers me that she is raising that child alone. I worry about the child (and wish I could have met here) and wondered if we could do something extra for her that isn't "manditory" and forced. It is hard to know what is right when we are so far away.

I am sure that LynnG has her reasons for the strong views she presents, but I also have my reasons for my own. Just as she has the right to present those views, I don't think my opinion is any less valuable to some.

=^^= Absolutely. That is what I am saying...all these opinions are important and valuable; yours, mine, her's and everyone elses. All at different stages in recovery or fighting to find our way to recovery any way we know how. In the beginning, perhaps inappropriately to some (Lord knows I was) there is a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth. I hope you weren't made to feel as if your opinions were not valuable when you are our conscience here and I have personally learned so much from you. Your influence is responsible in part to my mellowing. When you are gone for days at a time, we are off balance here.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Catnip =^^=

Catnip said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I were in your shoes and I went out and got a lawyer to try to hide all my assets, get as much money for my kids as possible, etc., I could tell you what would happen. My H would believe that he was caught between TWO money-grubbing women. I doubt that would endear him to me.

=^^= Whoa...I hope I am reading this wrong and not reading between the lines. Are you alluding to my getting an attorney to save my house? Do you think I was money-grubbing to insist on a Quit Claim? I hope I am being paranoid. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course you are being paranoid! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But, rightfully so, because I did not express the thought clearly. This is what I was trying to say.

In my own case, if the ex-OW had tried to take my H for every dime and then I ALSO started hiding assets and stating that the OC would never get a dime of our money, my H would have thought he was caught between two money-grubbing women. My actions to cut the OC out of everything would have been just as repulsive to him as the exOW's actions.

Now, I agree with you, this may not be in every case. But, I can assure you that if I handled the situation that way, he would have opted to get away from BOTH of us.

You are also very right in the fact that we were able to pay child support. Your case is very different because there was no way you could pay the amount you were ordered to pay and given your specific circumstances I believe all of your actions were absolutely on target.

I also understand that "angry and bitter" may be triggers for you after the problems experienced on MB a while ago. You were a target for some of those individuals so I understand how you must feel.

I believe your solution is the best. Everyone should print what they want, including those of us who disagree. And we should all adopt the "Take what you need and leave the rest" attitude. But when you place an inflammatory thread, you have to expect some strong reactions.

I have also learned a lot from you Catnip. You were my guiding star when I first came to MB. And, yes, we have all had moments of anger and despair. You know I luv ya, even when we disagree. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

BTW, we have no way of knowing LynnG's intentions. I did not see her post a story and have no idea what stage she is in. I think her comments might have been received differently by some if they had some idea of her background.

If most of the posters want this to be a vent board, then so be it. I will bow out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (Extremely graceful exit ...)

love,
heavenly

<small>[ September 23, 2003, 05:44 AM: Message edited by: heavenlybody26 ]</small>

I'm bowing out, too...my judgment seems to be off and the things that I say may be coming off too weird. Maybe I need to get myself grounded. Too much self doubt these days.

I have to reschedule that interview with the cat breeder anyway. This is something I thought was going to happen weeks ago.

You are an amazing diplomat and have an excellent ability to defuse potentially combative situations on all the threads when you enter with your calm ways and words, filled with your spiritual grace.

Love you back

Cat =^^=

<small>[ September 23, 2003, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

catnip:
If I hear you right then the court is asking for more than you have? The court is not taking your family and it's bills into consideration? I know in this state the courts have a shared cost of living here. The only time I've seen judges tell the man to get a second job is when he purposely has not paid and is trying to avoid paying by having a low paying job (part time job and no effort to get a better job). Do you have kids?

Stacia Lee- Good for you!!! You are a perfect example of GET AN ATTORNEY. You are on your way to having full and sole custody of that child. A child who is lucky to have you. I know many laywers get worn out on the process, just keep fighting. Your is a perfect example of the MM/BW ending up with the child.

Pops - Angry? Bitter? You bet I was. I was informed of this board and was shocked and saddened by how weak and helpless so many BW sound. I am here to encourage them to grab back control over their lives. It is up to them to decide what they want here. But they need to do it legally. I am angry when I read OW whine about how their children deserve this,or that and to hell with the children of the marriage, or the BW and how dare these BW have any feelings against OW/OC. That put me in anger mode. The BW, and BH have every right to be angry and can do, feel and say whatever they please. They have rights and need to protect themselves and thier children. That is what I am trying to get across. Toughen up. Pull up the bootstaps and kick back.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by needtomoveon:
<strong>catnip:
If I hear you right then the court is asking for more than you have? The court is not taking your family and it's bills into consideration? I know in this state the courts have a shared cost of living here. The only time I've seen judges tell the man to get a second job is when he purposely has not paid and is trying to avoid paying by having a low paying job (part time job and no effort to get a better job). Do you have kids?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not trying to step on Cat's paws, but I wanted to reply to this! Catnip and her H have been RAPED by the courts AND the xOW! They(the courts) have NEVER taken into account that due to H's illness(and it was known by the xOW that he was seriously ill!) that he lost his business, job, etc.....and they are still demanding an outrageous amount of CS! H did NOT quit his job to avoid paying CS, HE COULDN'T WORK!! BUT, did the courts take this into consideration?!?! NO, they did not! They believed the xOW when she said they were hiding assets, etc and slammed Catnip and her H against the wall! Even with the proof that they provided many different times!!!! I continuously pray for them that the courts eyes are opened, and justice is finally served in their case!

I have "known" Catnip for the past 3 yrs, and, yes, there are times when she is harsh, but if you knew her full story, and EVERYTHING that this xOW has pulled and put them through, you may be a little more understanding of that anger! AND, being an xOW myself, I have NEVER been attacked, because I saw this anger being aimed at the xOW in her case, not towards myself!

Ok, Cat, I will let you take it from there. Just had to put in my $.02 worth!

Tigger

Thanks tigger. Ya know I don't believe it's fair for ow or mm's family to do something that is wrong. Karma is a real thing and eventually she will have to pay for her actions. It's about the oc nothing more nothing less. That does not mean to go and screw someone over when they are down and out. That is in any situation that comes our way. You should not screw someone over even if they are on top either. Surely if she was having an a with this man she knew he was sick and she knew the position he was in. Cat I'm sorry she is putting you through all this.

LynnG,

That is partially why I posted our latest situation here.
As it has been said, not all OWs are alike. As all BWs are not the same. I know that our OW is a bit on the extreme end of the spectrum and I am on a slightly different plane as a BW. I wanted to show another side of the coin..

You hear all the time about the BW being a b**** and not wanting anything to do with the OC... Honestly in the beginning, I wanted NOTHING to do with the coming OC... BUT when I learned about OW's history.. there was NO WAY I could turn my back... SOMEONE had to be this child's Champion, and BY GOSH I was gonna be that Champion! After all, I was her FATHER'S wife, and who better than me?

I do agree, get a lawyer and protect yourself and your children.
There are many here that have done so... and there are many Newbies that need encouragement in that respect.

You do come off with a Strong Voice... and may startle many people.
There are many that would like to hear your FULL story, myself included.
You seem to have weathered this storm rather well, and we would like to know what steps you took to get there.

So, humor us LynnG.... tell your story... encourage those of us that haven't been dealing with this as long as you.

I second the motion...please share! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Twiisty

Needtomoveon,

Let me second what tigger said. Catnip's case is extreme, but not that unusual. Unfortunately, our legal system can not only be unfair more times than I would like, it can be downright cruel. Catnip's case is such an example.

There are many in the legal system who have archaic ideas about affairs and OCs. They believe that men must pay unfairly for their mistake. And, don't forget, the main objective of chasing men down for CS is to ensure that the child and/or child's mother does not request money from the state.

There are small reforms here and there, and some states that try to be fair. But, it is not extensive enough or quick enough and battles over CS often end in complete unfairness for the innocent parties involved -- the children of the marriage and the BWs.

Since I know Catnip's case, I can affirm that she did everything necessary to SURVIVE -- not merely to keep the OC from having necessities. She did what she had to do to make sure she and her H would have life's necessities. I have incredible admiration for Catnip. She has walked a long and hard road.

But, I think she would be the first to tell you that her way is not everyone's way. And, that is what I admire the most. I don't try to change anyone's views because each one of us is free to feel what we feel. But, frequently, someone will post something that will make me think and give me a new perspective.

"Take what you need and leave the rest". None of us can go wrong if we keep that in our minds. We also can't go wrong if we share OUR experiences and OUR views. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

love,
heavenly

<small>[ September 23, 2003, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: heavenlybody26 ]</small>