Can anyone give me a link or website to OW's board. I want to know what goes on in their minds. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

www.gloryb.com
forums, children & affairs

but be warned if you are going there to cause trouble, it wont be tollerated. If you are going there with good intentions, you will be welcomed.

Go there at your own risk. It's a nasty, hurtful, twisted, juvenile, selfish, mentally scary place.

Most of them hate the BW and get this a reformed OW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by gardenbunny:
<strong> Go there at your own risk. It's a nasty, hurtful, twisted, juvenile, selfish, mentally scary place. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OUCH.

Like Twilight said, if you are going to go with intent to cause trouble, it will not be tolerated - just like it's not tolerated here when OW come to cause trouble. But, the same goes here, if you go with good intentions, you will be welcomed.

I didn't go there to cause trouble. I went there once to read, and was so shocked and troubled by what I read, I haven't gone back since.

Well, gardenbunny, I don't know what section you were reading, but I've found some of the women there are a lot similar to the women here - nice people in a bad situation and just trying to find their way.

I find that sight an absolute hysterical read!!!

They say the BW is in denial???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I am long past dday and what they say and how they behave can't hurt me. But if you were new to this, it might hurt you as you could read your own situation into their stories. So maybe those who are fresh shouldn't read there.

The world is full of all kinds, with different morals, different beliefs, etc. Women like them are alot different then you are.

First of all, We do not think that all BW's are nasty. I for one have greater respect for the BW in my situation after lurking here. And the more I read here the more a realize that she is a very strong women. She went through alot. She has said some nasty stuff to me but that was because she was hurt. Most BW don't sit and wallow in self pity and say nasty things about OW and OC. It's just the few that do it here, run amuck and make this board seem negative in self growth.


It's funny that some of you BW's think that gloryb is such a nasty place but there are so many BW's that post there that disagree with you.

<small>[ November 18, 2003, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: ImNotyou ]</small>

Imnotyou:

Well, as a BH, I haven't had call 2 go over 2 gloryb or TOW or any other such site if there are any.

I'm curious, though. You say you have gained respect for the BW in your sitch, and that you understand that she was hurt. What have you learned about YOU? What does integrity mean 2 you? Do you feel like you've compromised your integrity by having an A? Do you have a desire 2 right the wrongs you can control?

I'm not slamming, just curious.
-ol' 2long

I have learned that God is forgiving, that he is my judge on judgement day, not people.

I have learned alot from my situation. Everything that has happened was suppose to happen.

If the Lord can forgive, I can forgive myself. I stopped kicking myself a long time ago. I'm not saying that I'm perfect and that I know it all. I'm just as vulnerable and can be very self consciouse as the next person.

I'm not going to spend my life living in guilt or anger, nor will I let anyone tell me that I should.

I usuall don't come over here, mostly cuz I've really got no business here (though we were close). But I saw this thread on the active topics page, so hadta chime in.


Well, gardenbunny, I don't know what section you were reading, but I've found some of the women there are a lot similar to the women here - nice people in a bad situation and just trying to find their way.

Joshmom, you are right I suppose. Then there are also people like this:

Come on, 2smart. If you really are "too smart" you'd be counting your lucky stars. You are jealous because this man goes home to a wife and 4 kids ? That sure doesn't sound like fun to me.

You get the best of him. Let his wife cook, clean, and raise the brats.

Yup, she sounds like a reeaall sweetheart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .

MTD

<small>[ November 18, 2003, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: madly_truly_deeply ]</small>

MTD - I don't know where you got that quote - I certainly didn't say it or anything like it. We can pick apart quotes from both boards, I suppose. And find both good and bad in both, too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ImNotyou:
<strong>
It's funny that some of you BW's think that gloryb is such a nasty place but there are so many BW's that post there that disagree with you. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Really? I know of only one that goes over there and disagrees with us. Name three more...two more...or just one more.

can we not do this please - this is the kind of stuff that starts the board wars that we all complain about.

I agree that a newly betrayed person should not go there.

I too have learned a great deal. I learned that many (OW) get in over their heads not understanding the fact that he is married. They feel that they are not married so it is his business. Many don't respect marriage in general.

They (I hate generalizations) believe we generally don't have sex with our spouces and they are also lied to and sometimes told horrible things about us by our WSs. They are hurt and suffer too, but at least they had the choice to enter the relationship, something the BS cannot have. They also believe that their relationship will be different. They believe that they will meet the WSs needs. They as a rule forget that there is/was an intense relationship with the wife that was put on a back burnner for a while only to boil over when d-day occurs. I learned that most men go back to their wives and leave these women to hurt alone often looking like a fool. I have watched as some of these OW grow and I truely thank them for helping me heal by being able to see the other side, that my H was not innocent in this. I don't post there, it is not my place. I like some of them and pray for some of the selfish ones. I cheer when they realize they were hurting themselves and the BW and finally get out of these dysfunctional relationships and move on into great relationships with single guys..I am really happy when they learn, because they are selling themselves short. I also learned that a lot of these relationships don't end with 1 d-day.

I too, like lynn, am way past d-day. It doesn't hurt anymore for me. My relationship with my H is better than before in part because he had an affair. It may have saved my marriage. Would I have rather found out from him? Yes, but that was part of the problem that will never occur again if I can help it. I have learned a great deal about marriage from this website that should hopefully secure my marriage. I have also learned that I wouldn't want to be another woman, that is way too lonely and painful. They really wouldn't want to go thru a d-day and recovery as a BS, even more painful. There is no reason for me to hate our OW now, after reading there I realize that she too lost a great deal. It must have been very painful for her to realize that it was just a phase he was going thru and that he ran home and asked to have another child with me to show his commitment. It must have hurt when she found out I was pregnant and that he had never stopped sleeping with me nor taken off his rings. She was a temporary drug that helped him thru a very depressive episode when he turned away from me, I don't hate her anymore, in a way I am happy that she supported my H emotionally until I could figure out what was going on. I would rather there was no affair, but it is now part of our history and proof that out marriage is strong enough to survive and that our love for each other is stronger than before....I love you more today, but less than tomorrow. I am happy again, and that website helped me to understand the whole affair so that I could respond and heal properly. I wouldn't want to be one of them. Jersey Girl

I have been struggling for a while now to resopond and even mention all this, but I suppose this seems as good a time as any to get this off my mind if I am to at all. So many people who help me have advised me to let it all go but I cannot.

So I guees I have now revealed that I have let what has happened get so much under my skin, and I guess I am also opening up myself to more.

I have gone to TOW three times since my d-day, 3 1/2 years ago. Once to see what it was like, second to see if my OW posted there, and third was recently when I was alerted my post was circulated thru private messages from another website and then the people found humor and "irony" when comparing my current situation to that of my OW.

I have always lived by the motto if you do not have something nice to say about a person, don't say it. I have also felt that if I didn't post any negative thoughts about my OW, and if I did not agree with anything I read about another person then I don't repond. By respecting others then I thought the same respect would be shown to me.

I guess I am naive b/c I have found I was not worthy of that b/c it was done secretly and the things that were said were by no means procuctive or kind. And the graphics of the gremlins, they hurt as much as the words. It was said that some wanted to post back to me and or PM me. Maybe if that had been done and others had tried to understand the situation better, some pain could have been avoided.

I have been truely affected by this experience, just another one of lifes lessons I suppose. I am not one for confrontation (which is why I suppose I am posting this here and my hands shake as I type this out).

Please note...I do not want to start a board war, nor do I want to be hurt again, but in the same minute I feel a sense of relief to get this out.

I have met many people, betrayed and wayward, who have helped me remarkably. But in light of my experience, I do not see what came from all this that was helpful in anyones recovery, unless feeding off of someone elses turmiol is beneficial.

Basically in closing, I will say that I do not visit, do not post, I respect the OWs right to have a place to vent even thought it was not shown to me, and I will continue to do so.

I hope that we will all find the peace we need to live our lives to the fullest.

God Bless...
NGU

Hugs, some of them can be quite nasty. I doubt anyone will ever love a person who can be so cruel to others, and you know wnat, if they are loved by a MM who tolerates that typed of person then they are two of a kind and deserve each other. I just was addicted to following their stories, I wanted them to fail so badly and you know what, they failed overall. Few of thier relationships survived. The ones that did make it overall were married very young and had exit affairs. These relationships also had troubles, some going thru divorce only to leave their OW. A lot of these women are strug along by their MM and just kept on the side for years. They never leave their wife and if she throw him out they usually don't want the OW as their primary relationship. They just want to be free and unmarried which just kills a majority of the OW. Once I was strong enough I just loved to hear that they suffered like we did, only most didn't hurt quite as much, but believed they did.

I wanted to add that I agree that a person who has just found out about an affair should not visit, as the pain is still very raw. I think everyone knows what they can tolerate, and I did too b/c I did not even entertain the idea until well after d-day, and realized that even now it does not help me. I know that some people gain great insight from reading the other persons perspective. I have too, but only when I get to know the person, and am able to speak to him/her on a more personal level.

My thoughts are that it is fine as long as one respects what it is all about, and a person realizes they can read and discard what they do not agree with respectfully.

NGU

This board promotes growth and understanding and nobody is wallowing in self pity. This is a community of people, helping each other deal with a hurt. Many are at different places in their lives and understanding. Go ahead, call it wallowing, I just consider the source.

I have never read one person here slam the OC. The ow deserves and has earned her place to be scorned. That is hardly abnormal, when one looks at the damage an OW (and MM) have caused innocent people.

Go ahead, forgive yourself. Deal with God. Whatever floats your boat. While you are off spouting all your beliefs, may I remind you of "thou shall not commit adultery" or do you have some twisted logic of why that doesn't apply to you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LynnG:
<strong> This board promotes growth and understanding and nobody is wallowing in self pity. This is a community of people, helping each other deal with a hurt. Many are at different places in their lives and understanding. Go ahead, call it wallowing, I just consider the source.

I have never read one person here slam the OC. The ow deserves and has earned her place to be scorned. That is hardly abnormal, when one looks at the damage an OW (and MM) have caused innocent people.

Go ahead, forgive yourself. Deal with God. Whatever floats your boat. While you are off spouting all your beliefs, may I remind you of "thou shall not commit adultery" or do you have some twisted logic of why that doesn't apply to you? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lynn - who exactly are you saying this to? And the board that I moderate at TOW ALSO promotes growth and understanding. Granted, some will never "get it"... but most have moved on with their lives.

Catnip,

I'm not into naming names. I'm sure if they want to respond to this thread they will.

NJ,
It sounds like this experiece has made you and your husband better people and your marraige stronger. That's what marriage building is about.

LynnG,
I have seen OC get slammed here manytimes. But then again I'm sure you have your own definition of what slamming means. And insults don't count if the person is hurt, right?.

Never said I was perfect, are you? I have dealt with my situation the best I know how. Yes, I commitTED adultry. I've answered to the lord for my sins(ok maybe not all, sorry I ate the grapes at shoprite when I was 8, and so on). But I'm sure you believe in child abandonment in the sake of the marriage. I'm not talking about the ones that has truly tried contact and it wasn't feasable(sp?).

Tell me this LynnG, Why does 2 wrongs make a right?

It just seems that when ever an OP posts and their not wallowing in self pity and begging for forgiveness from some anonymous people. Some of you get bent out of shape.

I'm not an arrogant person, I just believe that I don't owe anyone on this board anything. I'm just here to learn and offer my opinions.

But it doesn't matter what I think because, Im not your judge, and I'm not You.

<small>[ November 19, 2003, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: ImNotyou ]</small>

I'm not you.

You come onto this thread, and vent about anothers husband and an 18 year old. Her H did not have an affair with an 18 year old, she was stating that this girl has been involved with other married men. Your response was to rip on her and her husband. That is attacking.


Where is oc slammed here? I have been here for 2 months and have never seen anyone slam an OC. Not once.

If you think a married man, who is staying with his wife and their children, and for their best interests, choose no contact, how is that wrong? Are you expecting the wife and the children of the marriage to be sacrificed for the oc? Is that a more suitable arrangement? How is that fair to the children of the marriage? Or, don't they count?

And no, you don't owe this board anything, but the BW owe you nothing either. This is their place to vent about their lives and discuss what they want and will do pertaining to an OC in their lives. It is none of your concern or business if some of us are vocal about no contact. This is a board for marriages and the family. The BW here, get two sides of the issue, some pro contact and some no contact.

As for nc, the OW and MM should have thought of that before they had that baby. OW think of it as abandonment? I don't see it that way. The oc gets child support and health care. What he does not get is to be a member of our family. We decided that immediatley so as not upset our children. You say two wrongs don't make a right? I agree. The 2nd wrong would be to upset the children of the marriage and the wife by having OC. You are expecting the wife and her children to accept what is simply not easy to do. So, when push comes to shove a decision has to be made. If they choose no contact, the oc becomes one, of many victims of two selfish people. Everyone gets hurt. OC included.

I'm here to help BW and let them know that they can have a voice. They can have things whatever way they want. I tell them to get legal advice early to protect themselves and their children. I tell them that it is ok to say they don't want oc in their lives. I tell them it is normal are totally understandable. What advice are you giving them?

LynnG,

Trust me, I've lurked on this board for over 3yrs. There has been attacks on OC. But I don't need to dig up old posts and repost them. Maybe those individuals have grown past that and it wouldn't be fair.

I'm not here to attack anyone.

You are being extremely defensive for the choices you've made. If your happy and secure with them, you don't need to preach to me about what you feel is appropriate for you and your family.

Like I said I'm not the one you have to answer to.
Don't read into that last sentence. I just mean that what is your right, may not be my right and vice a versa. There could also be different paths to the same right.

My opinions of abandonment differs from yours so there is no point in argueing about that.

Your picking apart parts of my posts that you want to pick apart, and say I'm attacking. It doesn't matter what I post, there will always be people to pick it apart because I'm not begging for YOUR/THEIR forgiveness saying what a horrible person I am because of mistakes I've made in my past.

From the day that child was born a member of your husbands family and will always be.

My advice would be(not that you care) is...
Doing something good that is not for your own benefit(can also include emotional benefit) will come back to reward you in so many ways.

why is it always 1 person's fault? The OW or MM? I think BS are very clear that it is BOTH MM & OW fault but it usually only their H they hear I'm sorry from so they are able to begin to forgive.

And OW start to "care" as soon as they have their OWN child to worry about and expect BS and family to care about OC when OC(oops meant OW not OC) never cared about the BS children to begin w/ but everyone is supposed to care about their innocent OC!!?!

Accidental pregnancies do happen but when the person you are having sex w/ is your own spouse then it is not so devastating, but if your having sex w/ someone else's spouse then a pregnancy can ONLY be devastating. Hello!

OW act like they were the only one's lied too and they are so innocent, they are "good" people, "good" parents and hardly ever sorry.

What about the lying OW did being w/ MM in the 1st place. Is nothing sacred? You can have any man no matter what? Why can't OW just come out and say they were wrong? MM KNOWS he was wrong and tries to correct the situation and now he's a monster for "abandoning" OW & OC?

Seems most OW don't mind taking "monsters" $$$$ and have the vindictave attitude that "he should pay"! So first they try to steal some one elses husband or father then when they can't have that they "settle" for stealing "support" from what would have been used for BS and children.

MM are not getting off easy, they are trying to repair some very irreparable damage they played a part in doing, and taking their whole lives to do it and, literally, paying for it!

While OW has the "blessing" of OC and added CS and OW doesn't "regret" a thing because they have their little bundle of joy while BS & MM are struggling to pick up all the pieces of their shattered lives for themselves and their children.

What is the world coming to where there is a message board ("a safe place to go for support") for TOW? When did TOW become an "ok" thing to be?

<small>[ November 19, 2003, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

Amen, ktbunch. Amen.

And I really wish that people would stick to one board or the other. Why are BS "not tolerated" at their site, however we "must accept" OW who want to come here? Give me a break. One board or the other, make up your mind!!! I don't come here nearly as much as I could or should, simply because OW are all over the damn place, and that makes me feel unsafe. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> If I wanted to read OW's thoughts, I would lurk at their board. I don't care about your thoughts, OW!!!

(I refuse to put a "T" in front of "OW" because they don't deserve it.)

As for abandonment <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> OW get child support, and that is all they are entitled to. If OW wanted a daddy for their child, they should think about that before having sex with ANYONE...even if it's a single guy, make sure he is available and willing to be a dad...or don't have sex. (I know OW will say that the MM should think the same way...but fact is, it's the woman's body, and she has the choice whether to carry the child or not, so she needs to decide before having sex, if she can deal with the results on her own, if need be.)

I'm not you.

You didn't answer my question. Why should the wife and the children of the marriage be sacrificed for the OC?


You say " doing something good that is not for your own benefit (can also include emotional benefit) will come back and reward you in many ways." I am assuming you mean contact with OC. Once again, OW putting needs of herself and OC above others. I will throw that back at OW with OC. Do the family a favor, take your baby and leave the family alone. No contact, No child support,nothing. Then you will be "rewarded" knowning that some family can heal and have a happy life with out the drama of an OC around. As if that would ever happen.

I am firmly against any contact with OC. I believe that it is disruptive to the family. Hurtful to the children of the marriage. And there is no reason to hurt others for the OC. It is putting OC needs above others. I disagree with that 100% In my home, the children that matter to us are ours. Their needs come first. I also feel that if there was no CS, OW would not be getting pregnant.

And I have read where OW are gleefully excited when the $$. They want him to pay. Etc. It's all about revenge. And who are they using? Their child.

Lynn

For your family and the situation, NC worked best for you. There are stories where contact has worked out great nad the good ole horror stories.

My H had contact in the begining with XOW and OC. She did the normal OW stuff and tried to control everything and play her games. We now have NC with the child. As much as I would like to have OC in our lives and be able to know his brother and sisters, I won't subject my children to her games anymore. She is the classic, I want my child to have a father but you need to dish out the $$ OW. She met her H when OC was 3 months old. OC has only known her H as his father. This past summer she had the gall to stop by out house and intoduce OC to my H as his father. Then proceed to not let visitation happen. She has continually told my H that her H was going to adopt OC. Went as far as to fill out papers, then didn't go throuh with it. She contacted H grandmother after her husband passed away thinking she could get some money. Never happend. These are the kind of OW we all hate.

But you do have your OW who are remorsefull about what happened and leaves the MM alone. Far and few, but it does happen. Or the OW who grows up and thinks what is best for the child and actually works with MM and his W together.

Getting back to the original message here, going to their boards does nothing for a BS. Just like them coming here does nothing for them.

Can you imagine if I went on there and started explaining to them how contact with oc is mean and cruel to the children of the marraige and how they have to accept that fact? And if they don't they are cowards and are willing to hurt innocent children in their ongoing quest for revenge?

Good lord, the place would come unglued if my name appeared!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And what would be my point for going there? I would know I was only there to rub them wrong. So what would the point be?

I feel the same when one of them comes here and tries to explain how nc is abandonment, etc. It is NOT abandonment, but a by product of her own actions. They will cry how the OC deserves to know his/her siblings and family? Not caring one bit at the cost to the innocent children of the marriage at all. I do get angry when they try to suddenly have the best interest of the child. This sudden concern is suspect. It certainly never was there for the children of the marriage,and still isn't.

So, I think it's best for any BS to not go there, let them have their place. It doesn't hurt anyone.

Thanks for all the replies. I definitely do not have any intentions of going on the OW board to cause havoc. I'm just going there to visit and read up on the posts only. I want to get a better understanding of what's going on with them and how they feel about the situation they are in. I just thought that it would help me understand their feelings. I know there are many innocent OW out there as I know the OW who was involved with my h is. She had no idea my h was married with children until she found out she was pregnant and then my H spilt the beans to her about his family. Believe me she hasn’t been the perfect OW either, as a matter of fact she’s psycho!

I know she is extremely angry and hurting, as I would be if the person I was involved with was married with children and I didn’t know this until I found out I was pregnant. Now she’s going through her pregnancy alone knowing that the person she trusted doesn’t want anything to do with her or the OC. I would be pretty dam upset and crushed. I can honestly relate to the hurt she is going through. My h lied to both of us and he did a good job of hiding the both of us from each other for so long, 3 years to be exact.

The reason to go on the OW site is b/c my h will not talk to me about anything; he avoids the subject by either getting upset or walking away. Since my D-day 6-29-03 five months ago, he just recently contacted a Lawyer but has not followed through. He hasn’t bothered going to see a counselor; he doesn’t need one he said. He just doesn't seem to care about the consequences for filing a Separation to protect our finances from OW. All I know is he absolutely does not want contact with OW/OC at all and he's made that very clear to me and OW. Time is wasting for me, and the way things are going between my h and I, it's time to let go and file for a D. I was considering just a separation but he's giving a lot more reason to move on. H knows how extremely hurtful this has been on me, he sees the tears everyday. I'm more upset with him b/c he won't talk to me about his feelings or what we need to do to take care of this. It's been 5 months since d-day and he hasn't taken care of a dam thing. I know he's hurting but he won't let me in. I currently seeing a counselor and taking Zoloft but I can't move on with him if he's not willing to help this marriage. He talks to me everyday as if nothing happened? I feel lost, alone & confused when he's around me, it's very hurtful that I feel this way about my h. Oh yes, it will hurt me to leave my h but I have GOOD reason to and I don't deserve to be treated this way even after the fact. It's like the A is the knife and he keeps twisting and twisting it by being quiet and not taking care of business for his family.

Dchris,
I hope your husband does go to counseling so he can open up. Maybe if he sees that your seriouse about divorce, it might motivate him to try and work on your marriage.

You've already realized that it takes two to re-build your marriage and it's not fair for you to deal with this pain alone.

I hope the decisions you make work out for the best.


LG,

Is it so hard for you to agree to disagree?

I never told you what YOU should do and not do with your husbands child. My last posts clearly states that everyone has there own beliefs of what's right and wrong for their family.

And my statement did not just apply to OW/OC about doing something thoughtful. It could have meant bringing your husband lunch to work.

I don't take any of this personal. I think if I would have said its night out, you would have agrued that it's day.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LynnG:
<strong>going to their boards does nothing for a BS. Just like them coming here does nothing for them.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm very big on trying to understand why people behave the way they do. With the first two affairs, I never had a harsh thought for the OW - didn't know them, and felt they owed me nothing. It was my H who had the problem. With the third one, she was a friend of mine, and I had such a hard time understanding the betrayal.

I spent a lot of time reading at gloryb. I was alternately horrified at some of the attitudes, and heartened by the number of people trying to do the right thing. I think it helped me a great deal as I was working through my feelings right after D-Day. But I never had any urge to post there at all, although if I had read a sincere post asking for how a BS felt, I might have answered.

I agree with new jersey. It took my H and I, a long time to get where we are in our marriage. my d-day was in 1996. The pain is not as fresh and raw. I seldom cry anymore. I understood exactly what nj stated. H and I have no contact. H's choice.

NGU, "I do not see what came from all this that was helpful in anyone's recovery?"

My answer:
The TOW's board, and meeting my h's OW and children in person in 1996, has helped me see the other side.

In 1996, my OW had to tell a 14 and 10 year old the truth. The OC's always thought that their parents were divorced. How shocking to find out your father was never married to your mother, and he has been married to his wife for 23 yrs., and has other children that are grown.

In 1996, all of our children were already grown, and did not want contact. They are worried about inheritance.

Every situation is different, as are life experiences.

Everyone on this board is supposed to be working on their marriage, and I believe that all of us are.

I still wish marriage builders had a special group, for posters like new jersey and myself.

It's called growing and understanding. It depends where your marriage is, in the healing process.

The problem, I believe, is that there are so many OW on this board, that are trying to rebuild their marriages, and accept contact.

Whereas, the BW and her H, with no contact, get no support, they get ridiculed.

Sorry for rambling. Sometimes I get carried away.

ember

Ember, I agree with you 100%. I am a huge advocate for no contact. We have just shy of 2 years to pay child support and our obligation will be meet. Complete. Finished.

I come here and see these poor, suffering BW, not sure which way to turn, what to do. Lost and hurt. Then they get to read some OW and how the XMM, if he chooses no contact is a coward, etc. Really, what to they expect? Do they honestly think a married man,with a family is going to play house with them? They hide their dagger behind "it's best for the oc?" Well, when I came here and told BW, that what is best for OC is not her concern, and that she should only be concerned for herself and her children. All hell broke loose. OW were horrifed that someone would advocate "abandoning" a child. As if the OC is the only child/person in the saga with feelings. I don't want to see some BW make a huge mistake. I guess caring for a family and a hurting wife makes me a monster!!! So, I will happily be the board monster!! I have no problem with that.

lynnG

You have my vote 100% <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> keep doing what you are doing. Care less who disagrees!

ember, LynnG, and MALC,
I also agree with N/C. In the beginning sometimes a BS agrees to it only to find the upheaval way too much to handle.

H and I now look back and he tells me "What was I thinking?" We tried contact for a short time and it was brutal.

Once oc/ow was out of the picture, the true rebuilding began with us. And we keep going stronger with each passing day.

There are a few here who do have contact. Stacia and whatif? are two.

Ultimately, H didn't want oc. Ow knew. In our case ow believed H would change his mind AND I would throw him out. Never underestimate the power of love or two who become one again.

Although we have a lot of years left for cs, we will be alright.

If contact were to go smoothly I know I'd have eventually left for a number of reasons. Humiliation, having op in the picture for years, resentment, my life totally changed from what it was before oc. We married without ex's and oc's and I wouldn't have lasted. Would have to change too many ways of life, one being free for the weekends to spend them as we wish. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> We're no spring chickens!

I have to agree with the Harleys, N/C. If both spouses agree. It's that oc "trail" and WS thinking they can have it all that destroys most marriages here. Just my opinion...

So you guys have supporters, more than you know.

love
Debi

Let me say that I very rarely read on this part of the site. I usually post on the Divorced section, but this is an interesting thread. I realize that it has to be extremely upsetting to be in either woman's shoes. Afterall, we are talking about our children's welfare, both emotionally and monetarily. Both sides seem to have some valid points. I can see how a mother would have reservations about the possibility of her children being upset about another sibling, albeit half sibling, being brought into their lives. It strikes me that only a very strong, secure and emotionally stable woman could accept an OW into their lives. I think these type of women are rare. Alternately, I think only the same type of woman could "share" her OC with the W of a MM. The quetion that comes to me is what is best for the children? All of the children. Of course there is no perfect answer to this and all situations would have to be considered. I can't help thinking that if all adults put the wellbeing of all the children ahead of themselves that things would work out eventually. Call me the eternaly optimist!

From an outsiders perspective, I don't see this as any different than a regular blending of families that is done when two parents divorce and marry other people. Who would support the father (XH) going NC with his children because he divorced and married someone else and had a child? Why does it have to be any different? He would be a deadbeat Dad who abandoned his child and responsibilities. Responsibilities to a child don't end with money! They begin with money and the most important thing a parent gives to a child is their love and time. To say a father is meeting his reponsibilities by only paying support is beyond illogical. I certainly expect more than that from my XH to his children! The H could not have a relationship with the previous affair partner of course. But that is no different than an XH not having a relationship with his XW.

Frankly, I don't understand NC to a man's child. How come it's not morally "right" unless the child is an OC? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TheFeminineSide:
<strong>It strikes me that only a very strong, secure and emotionally stable woman could accept an OW into their lives. I think these type of women are rare.

=^^= I think you sell women short. I believe women are much stronger emotionally than you give them credit for. In fact, I don't think strength has a lot to do with this issue as much as whether or not NC or Contact will benefit the children of the marriage and OC. For many, it is more an intellectual decision, well thought out as to whether or not contact will work, considering all the variables to each couples' particular set of circumstances. Contact decisions should never be made while in the flux of D-day emotionalism.

From an outsiders perspective, I don't see this as any different than a regular blending of families that is done when two parents divorce and marry other people.

=^^= Trust me...there is a HUGE difference. This is apples and oranges to most Betrayeds since they were "ambushed" into "step-parenthood" and had no say in the matter at all. It is much, much different when you meet a man who was married before and had children BEFORE HE MET YOU as you go into the marriage knowing full well that he had a life before you married him. You have the opportunity to make a conscious decision. His children from his previous marriage are NOT products of betrayal. Their exsistence is not a source of angst and humiliation and heartache.

Who would support the father (XH) going NC with his children because he divorced and married someone else and had a child? Why does it have to be any different?

=^^= No one here would support a husband abandoning his children from his marriage. He has an obligation to them as part of his family under the sanctity of the marriage, under an "agreed to" contract in front of witnesses. Not covertly under sheets in secret. It is different because of the betrayal, the breach of trust.
It is different...very different. When I married my husband, I knew he had two children from his previous marriage. He had custody and I raised these kids as my own children and loved them as my own. They were conceived and born into his marriage long before I knew him. He did not betray me and his children were part of his family from the beginning of all their lives.

To say a father is meeting his reponsibilities by only paying support is beyond illogical.

=^^= Really? Well, obviously you have not walked in a Betrayed's shoes and have no idea the devasting destruction that one experiences when they have devoted themselves to a marriage for a number of years, built a long and complicated history together, shared everything together, raised a family and have an extended family together and suddenly experiences the worst possible thing that can happen in a marriage...not just an affair, a breach of trust and deception, but the affair and the pain of an affair is SQUARED with the advent of an OC. Nothing can compare to the enormous pain of finding out that your spouse is having a child with someone else who is not you.

I certainly expect more than that from my XH to his children!

=^^= From an ex-husband? Of course! You should! You had these children together in a marriage and no one betrayed anyone or destroyed anything by bringing these kids into you marriage. Your kids are a product of your marriage.

The H could not have a relationship with the previous affair partner of course. But that is no different than an XH not having a relationship with his XW.

=^^= You've GOT to be kidding? There is absolutely no comparison for all the reasons stated above. When I married my husband, I KNEW aforehand that I would be dealing with his ex-wife on occasion and I decided this was OK and I could handle it. They were divorced, their marriage was over and so were the emotional attachements. I knew what I was getting into. The OW burst into my life knowing full well I sat at home in turmoil facing the impending destruction of my marriage while she spent weekends with my husband. She was ruthless and didn't care what or how I felt, how my kids felt or how this would effect all our lives, what history we had carved together, how many people would be effected and how deeply I loved my husband and wanted my marriage to survive. She didn't care. She just didn't care about any of it. It is very difficult for a Betrayed to suddenly care about an OW's angst and distress when the near destruction of her marriage was at the hands of this ridiculously demanding woman who has no rights in the first place. She was an interloper and boldly moved forward with the Wayward Spouse, ignoring the pain and heartache the Betrayed and the children and family would experience. It never ceases to amaze me how these people have so much crust to do what they do and then have the gall to make demands without remorse or conscience. They never cared about your kids but you are expected to care about theirs and make adjustments and include them into your life when they were never in your plans. It makes for a very crowded marriage.

Frankly, I don't understand NC to a man's child.

=^^= It's OK. You are not expected to understand nor could you if you have not experienced this yourself.

How come it's not morally "right" unless the child is an OC? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

=^^= As long as the WS supports the OC financially, there is no abandonment. The onus of the emotional well being falls on the shoulders of the mother, who probably knew well ahead of time that her x-lover was married, thus, otherwise engaged, and the burden of this heartwrenching situation falls on her. The reason her OC does not have a proactive and involved father is that she chose to have a child with a man who was married to someone else and not available. He has previous obligations and should not be expected to abandon many for one. It is preposterous for any OW to expect she can invade a marriage, do as she pleases and then insist everyone adjust their lives accordingly to welcome her child into their lives when no one had any idea or had any input as to whether or not it was OK for her to do this.
However, that being said, often the Betrayed Spouse will agree to contact after significant healing and recovery has taken place within the marriage...we all seem to soften up with time. Most Betrayeds have tender feelings for their OC and wish things could be different and sincerely wish for and hope that the OC is doing well, is happy and is surrounded by love.
Since this is Marriage Builders, the consensus here is to concentrate on the marriage first and foremost and focus on cementing the marriage before incorporating the OC into your lives. Most of the time it is the OW who makes contact impossible with only a few exceptions that we have seen here. On the other hand, we have a few situations here where contact is not only successful but is rewarding for all involved. There is no right or wrong where contact is concerned, but there is an overall desire that the OC is cared for, provided for and the tender feelings we all eventually feel towards the OC will keep the door open for future possibilities if things can be worked out.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ November 25, 2003, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

Well said Catnip. It is so hard for me to understand why it is the BW and her children who are required to accept the unaceptable. That they should do this or that. How cruel and self centered. That once the OC is born, everyone should do what is "best for the children". I will ask again, why and how is it best for the children of the marriage to have contact with OC? What if they don't want to? Why is the OC feelings and wellbeing more important then those of children of the marriage?

Some OW expect the BW and her children to behave above reproach. Thta now that MM and OW have destroyed so much, everyone else should shift their values and their wishes and beliefs to accomodate the mistake. Not realistic at all.

Catnip,
Thank you for your reply and thoughts. As I said, I am an outsider who could never really understand this totally since I've never walked in your shoes or those of a mother with an OC. Can't say as I want to either! LOL I have sympathy for all of you mothers who are in this situation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:


"For many, it is more an intellectual decision, well thought out as to whether or not contact will work, considering all the variables to each couples' particular set of circumstances. Contact decisions should never be made while in the flux of D-day emotionalism. "

Will work for who? The adults or the children? I don't see how contact could be harmful to a child as long as they are getting the love and attention too from their Dad. Seems it's the adults that are having the issues here. I'm a stepchild and only have step-siblings. I can't imagine loving a brother and sister more.

"Trust me...there is a HUGE difference. This is apples and oranges to most Betrayeds since they were "ambushed" into "step-parenthood" and had no say in the matter at all. It is much, much different when you meet a man who was married before and had children BEFORE HE MET YOU as you go into the marriage knowing full well that he had a life before you married him. You have the opportunity to make a conscious decision. His children from his previous marriage are NOT products of betrayal. Their exsistence is not a source of angst and humiliation and heartache."

Again you are referring only to the adults feelings here, not the children. Whose feelings really count the most? When are adults required to act like adults and do what is best for the children? It seems to me that a woman who is married and then her H betrays her and that betrayal produces a child, has to make the decision all over again to "marry" him again and with the decision factor in his responsibilties to the new child he has brought into this world. Just like a woman who chooses to marry a divorced man with children. It's a matter of choice at that point. The child will never go away. Or should the child be required to. I see it no differently than a woman who chooses to marry a man who has children and then expects him to not see those children and to abandon them How is it any different?

"No one here would support a husband abandoning his children from his marriage. He has an obligation to them as part of his family under the santity of the marriage, under an aggreed to contract in front of witnesses. Not covertly under sheets in secret. "

So you are saying that it all depends how a child comes to this world as to whether they "deserve" to not be abondoned by their father? That a man who is married has the MORAL obligation because of a certificate of marriage to the mother? But a man without a certificate is not morally obligated? Pretty interesting train of thought. And I thought adults had the moral obligation to raise any baby they were responsible for bringing into this world.


You are right, I've never walked in those shoes. While I had a H who did cheat, many times actually, he didn't father a child with those women.

"Your kids are a product of your marriage."

Kids are not just a product of marriage. There are lots of marriages without kids and there are lots of kids born before marriage. My kids are a product of a defunct marriage, but we are doing our best to co-parent for the best of the kids.

The H could not have a relationship with the previous affair partner of course. But that is no different than an XH not having a relationship with his XW.

"You've GOT to be kidding? There is absolutely no comparison for all the reasons stated above. When I married my husband, I KNEW aforehand that I would be delaing with his ex-wife on occasion and I decided this was OK and I could handle it. They were divorced, their marriage was over and so were the emotional attachemtns (for the most part). I knew what I was getting into."

Catnip, I don't like to take discussions to personal levels, just to keep them at a higher "theory" level because people tend to get upset. So speaking not about you but about any woman who CHOSE to remain in a marriage after infidelity, has the same choices that a woman has before marrying a man with children who happens to be divorced. It's the same scenario. The woman has to look at the man's responsibilities and decide. Why should she have the "right" to tell the man to abandon his child? Sorry I don't see it. Everything you write is about your feelings, not the childs.


"It's OK. You are not expected to understand nor could you if you have not experienced this yourself."

Thanks. While I don't understand it, my heart goes out to those wives who have had their worlds turned upsidedown by a husband who can't keep it in his pants and then DOESN'T EVEN have the smarts to prevent bringing a child into this world in this situation.

I said, " How come it's not morally "right" unless the child is an OC? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

"As long as the WS supports the OC financially, there is no abandonment. The onus of the emotional well being falls on the shoulders of the mother, who probably knew well ahead of time that her x-lover was married, thus, otherwise engaged and the burden of this heartwrenching situation falls on her."

Boy, I don't see this. Any man who brings a child into this world is responsible for more than the money part that he is required by law to pay. Irregardless of the situation, obligation to children we bring into this world remains. Nothing changes that. Now that doesn't mean that a woman married to such a man has any obligation. I think not.

"Most of the time it is the OW who makes contact impossible with only a few exceptions that we have seen here."

I could see that happening a lot. Especially from an OW who got pregnant on purpose to try and take the man from his existing family!

"On the other hand, we have a few situations here where contact is not only successful but is rewarding for all involved. There is no right or wrong where contact is concerned, but there is an overall desire that the OC is cared for, provided for and the tender feelings we all eventually feel towards the OC will keep the door open for future possibilities if things can be worked out."
[/qb]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">[/QB][/QUOTE]

That HAS to be cool when it all works out!!

My good wishes and prayers are with all you ladies who were put into this awful, unimaginable situation unwillingly by the man they love and who swore to protect them from the world. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

<small>[ November 25, 2003, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: TheFeminineSide ]</small>

TheFeminineSide,

There is a BIG difference!! The oc was conceived out of an A. Lies and deceit were part of the this oc being born. When you blend children from another marriage you already are aware of their existence. You can deal with it better because you are aware of the situation before you marry your new spouse.

The oc should be loved and care for but to say it is the same as children from another marriage just isn't so. I wish it could be that easy but it isn't. The oc was born my two selfish people and they put this child in that situation. The oc is just as innocent as the bs and the children from that marriage.

It's one of those situations that we would like to make all parties (ow,oc,bs,mm) happy but an A changes all of that.

I want the oc in my situation to live a good life but it will not involve me. It might involve my children but right now thay don't want to meet her. If this was the child from a former marriage they would have been introduce properly not by the way you have a half-sister.

I hope you understand the difference.

<small>[ November 25, 2003, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:


"For many, it is more an intellectual decision, well thought out as to whether or not contact will work, considering all the variables to each couples' particular set of circumstances. Contact decisions should never be made while in the flux of D-day emotionalism. "

Will work for who? The adults or the children?

=^^= Well, in order for it to work for the children, it has to have already been worked out for the adults. It's the "what comes first thing...the chicken or the egg". In order to provide a stable foundation for all involved, the marriage must have had time to recover. This often takes at least two years of focused, committed efforts of both spouses.

I don't see how contact could be harmful to a child as long as they are getting the love and attention too from their Dad.

=^^= No one said contact was harmful to a child. Where did you see that?

Seems it's the adults that are having the issues here.

=^^= Of course! Of course it is the adults who are having the issues...that's why we are all here. Because of the adults, what they have done, the cause and effect and how to resolve these issues for the good of everyone involved.

His children from his previous marriage are NOT products of betrayal. Their exsistence is not a source of angst and humiliation and heartache."

Again you are referring only to the adults feelings here, not the children. Whose feelings really count the most?

=^^= Well, actually, the Betrayed's feelings count the most here ...initially. Until she feels that her marriage is safe and secure and has recovered sufficiently, her home is not a good environment for an OC simply because unless she has healed sufficiently through recovery, there might be resentment issues to be addressed and leveled before any responsible adult would incorporate an OC...thus, making the feelings of the OC paramount via the Betrayed.
It has to start somewhere and the first place to start is to rebuild the marriage successfully enough so that an OC may be incorporated into the family while providing stability, love and care. It is far more complicated than your simplistic idealogies. I don't mean to be dismissive or demean you in any way, I am just trying to offer some understanding of the complexities involved here...that there is a process at work that need to run its course.

When are adults required to act like adults and do what is best for the children?

=^^= I think this is what I have been proposing all along. I'll try to make myself more clear.

It seems to me that a woman who is married and then her H betrays her and that betrayal produces a child, has to make the decision all over again to "marry" him again and with the decision factor in his responsibilties to the new child he has brought into this world.

=^^= That's true...but, it is a "forced" decision she never should have had to make. This was HER life, this was HER family, HER marriage and HER call, ultimately. It is up to the husband to work to rebuild the marriage and make her feel loved, safe and secure again. Once that is attained, she might feel benevolent enough to welcome OC into their lives. Much of the time, this is truly the case and I respect and admire these women enormously.

Just like a woman who chooses to marry a divorced man with children. It's a matter of choice at that point. The child will never go away. Or should the child be required to.

=^^= EXACTLY...that is the point I made in my previous post.

I see it no differently than a woman who chooses to marry a man who has children and then expects him to not see those children and to abandon them How is it any different?

=^^= Frankly, if a woman married a man pretending to accept his children from a previous marriage just to get a ring on her finger and then rejected the kids after the "I do's" then the new husband has an obligation to his children to have the new wife make a swift exit for being duplicitous. But we are talking calculating deception here. And thankfully, I don't know anyone who would do that to any of their stepchildren...except for MY stepmother who did that to me and my Dad after she married my Dad...but that's another story.

So you are saying that it all depends how a child comes to this world as to whether they "deserve" to not be abondoned by their father?

=^^= No, I did not say that. Please reread the paragragh. The OC is NOT abandoned by the father if they receive CS. Contact or NC is not related to "abandonment" unless your definition of abandonment requires the WS to abandon many for one. The BW and the WS have a lot of work to do to rebuild their marriage which takes a minimum of two years. Expecting bonding or a relationship before that healing has taken place is unrealistic for most. It is one of the consequences of the OP's behavior (and WS) that has caused the OC to be without a proactive, participating father figure, which is a horrible shame and the responsibility of both of the parents. But that does not mean the BW is required to "step aside" with her rack of kids to accomodate some stranger's desires simply because she intruded into her life unannounced.

That a man who is married has the MORAL obligation because of a certificate of marriage to the mother? But a man without a certificate is not morally obligated? Pretty interesting train of thought.

=^^= No one ever once said that the man "without a certifcate" is not morally obligated and I would appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth or pushing your interpretation of what I said. I have been crystal clear. All I am saying is that the first obligation is to his wife and his children from that marriage. And THAT is a logical and universally held "train of thought" for bazillions worldwide.

And I thought adults had the moral obligation to raise any baby they were responsible for bringing into this world.

=^^= Yeah...they are. Did anyone say anything differently? However the circumstances of an OC often prevents a bio dad to "raise" a OC in the traditional sense because he has a family already, distance and other factors.

You are right, I've never walked in those shoes. While I had a H who did cheat, many times actually, he didn't father a child with those women.

=^^= Well, congratulations then...you are one of the "lucky" ones who have avoided being sentenced to twenty years-two decades of financial hardhship and emotional heartache and conflicting feelings.

"Your kids are a product of your marriage."

Kids are not just a product of marriage.

=^^= Sure, they are ...they ARE products of your marriage. Saying that they are products of your marriage does not mean that they are one dimensional or that is all they are. I don't understand how you got that out of that statement. I was speaking in general terms relating to family structure...not in substantive terms.

My kids are a product of a defunct marriage, but we are doing our best to co-parent for the best of the kids.

=^^= Whether defunct or not, they are products of your marriage in the familial structural sense. I'm glad that you and your EX are successfully co-parenting your children. As it should be.

The H could not have a relationship with the previous affair partner of course. But that is no different than an XH not having a relationship with his XW.

"You've GOT to be kidding? There is absolutely no comparison for all the reasons stated above.

Catnip, I don't like to take discussions to personal levels, just to keep them at a higher "theory" level because people tend to get upset.

=^^= I'm sorry. I didn't mean to upset you. But you just described your situation with your ex and co-parenting. We all need to take from our own experiences to give valid examples so we know from which we speak.

So speaking not about you but about any woman who CHOSE to remain in a marriage after infidelity, has the same choices that a woman has before marrying a man with children who happens to be divorced. It's the same scenario.

=^^= But it's NOT the same scenario in the least; and I am speaking as a woman (for an example...not to quash theory but to offer a prime example) who is in the swirling eye of the storm in both arenas. I am both a stepmom with custody of my husband's two children from a previous marriage (that I agreed to wholeheartedly) and the BW with a husband who fathered an OC (that I did NOT agree to) and I am not about to give up all the work, the joy, the history, the love, the sadness, the sacrifice, the security of my stepkids, the great times, the good, the bad or the ugly and just step aside for a child that should never existed or been born to someone other than me...unless I have grown and evolved enough to welcome said child into my home and into my heart. Which is possible now. Because of my gratitude for my/our recovery. But, like I said before...it is a process. It takes time and everyone has to be patient.

The woman has to look at the man's responsibilities and decide. Why should she have the "right" to tell the man to abandon his child?

=^^= If he is paying CS he is not abandoning the OC; but, she certainly has the right to express her difficulty with accepting the OC into their family and life (contact) if she is not ready or willing. She decides, then He decides...and the OW decides.

Sorry I don't see it. Everything you write is about your feelings, not the childs.

=^^= You don't have to see it and you can't see it having never lived it, and that's fine. It might be about the BW's feelings initially, but when the dust settles it is all about what is best for ALL the kids. It isn't so much about "feelings" as it is about what will work out best for everyone as a whole. Unless, you understand the enormous pain of the situation, you won't be able to understand that certain things need to be in place to offer an OC contact with the bio father's family. The children of the marriage often have a lot of heartburn and embarrassment about what their father has done and their is jealousy and insecurities need to be addressed first before OC's feelings are considered...that's the job of the OC's mother to protect the OC from feeling rejected or sad or insecure. Primarily by attitude. After all, she is the one who created this mess along with WS, knowing he was otherwise engaged in a marriage and already had a fmaily, so the bulk of the OC's feelings lay on her shoulders. It makes me sick that any OC should have to live like this and it infuriates me that these people put these children in this position to begin with. But, it is their issue to resolve the the job of the BW to tend to her marriage and to her own children first...and she rightfully expects her husband to work overtime to fix this mess he has created even if it means hammering out unpleasant details through POJA until the marriage has recovered.


my heart goes out to those wives who have had their worlds turned upsidedown by a husband who can't keep it in his pants and then DOESN'T EVEN have the smarts to prevent bringing a child into this world in this situation.

=^^= I hear ya...not to mention the calculating and/or stupidity of a woman who does nothing to protect her body from getting pregnant with all the birth control available to her since she was 12...there is no excuse for it in this day and age unless you are either underage or a moron or live under a rock. Especially if she knew the man was not available to be a proactive dad to her child and already married and had a life with someone else. Women have all the power, too. They are the ones who determine whether or not there will be sex to begin with. If she says NO (unless it is rape) there will be no sex, hence, no pregnancy. It is up to each and every woman to protect her body and to keep herself from getting pregnant.

"As long as the WS supports the OC financially, there is no abandonment.

Boy, I don't see this. Any man who brings a child into this world is responsible for more than the money part that he is required by law to pay. Irregardless of the situation, obligation to children we bring into this world remains. Nothing changes that. Now that doesn't mean that a woman married to such a man has any obligation. I think not.

=^^= Well, that's where we diagree and that's good. We need two schools of thought here. But I think we have to realize that certain situations call for creative contact if the bio dad is several states away, is broke due to excessive CS and cannot afford to travel or too much time has passed or the OW is completely unwilling to allow contact or sets up road block after road block to any contact. So many OW's want nothing to do with the bio dad and are only interested in securing huge portions of income shares. You can read all about that on TOW. It is often, sadly, all about the money. We see that so much here.

"Most of the time it is the OW who makes contact impossible with only a few exceptions that we have seen here."

I could see that happening a lot. Especially from an OW who got pregnant on purpose to try and take the man from his existing family!

=^^= That happens quite a bit. I have read on TOW how one gal "tried" to get pregnant w/her MM, which blew me away. Why on earth would someone deliberately do something so reckeless and cheat their child out of a dad? There were a couple of others over there admitting to the same and it is incredible.

"On the other hand, we have a few situations here where contact is not only successful but is rewarding for all involved.

That HAS to be cool when it all works out!!

=^^= It is. These OC's become our "kids" by proxy like with Stacia who has almost complete custody of her OC primarily because her OW is troubled and needs help to straighten out her life, but Stacia has been there from the beginning for Lil Bit and her husband is a lucky man for sure. There are several others who have regular contact and others who have occasional but most of them have an awful time with their OW causing trouble/problems. There are exceptions to the rule like Mom of Five who is completely reasonable and has found a way to make her situation work through mutual respect and working together with her XMM and his W for the good of her child. We also have some BW's who adamantly refuse to accept contact on any level for perosnal reasons usually relating to outrageous OW's bent on destoying their marrige and family and then there are people like me who have grown into accepting the possibility and are open to whatever happens. It is all so different for everyone and that's why I keep saying there is no cookie cutter to stamp out exact same scenarios for each person, each marriage and their situation. One thing I think we can all agree on is that we all want the best for all the kids and we desire peace, security, happiness, love and all good things for OC.

My good wishes and prayers are with all you ladies who were put into this awful, unimaginable situation unwillingly by the man they love and who swore to protect them from the world. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

=^^= (sniff) Thanks...and thanks for your lively debate. It was fun and enlightening.
[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

yes, that was a good debate to read but still one thing is always forgotten in these debates and that is the original children from the marriage.

It's always addressed about what is best for OC and that MM is abandoning OC but what about the original children he "abandoned" to have the A? Don't thier feelings count? They suddenly have to "share" their father, it's like they get punished for their father's sins. And I'm speaking about father's here more because when they choose C it is more of a disruption because the child usually does not "live" with daddy but "visits". So original children have to just "accept" this new person into their lives and eventually they become aware of who this person's mommy is and they know that it is not right. Imagine how confusing for them to see all the adults (who are getting over their issues and acting like "adults") trying to accept this current situation like it is normal when the children all know that it is not!

If there is now an OC, the MM and BS have to divide their time, attention, love and money with this new OC. It is different when mommy gets pregnant and every one has time to adjust and there is preparation and celebration over the birth of a new sibling. They get to see their sibling grow and develop not so w/ an OC---suddenly they are thrust into their lives.

What about those children? Who's thinking of them? Who is caring about their feelings? Not much is mentioned about them around here except in the occasional sentence about "what's best for ALL the children", but that's about it. Why don't we have a debate about what is in the best interest of ORIGINAL children or BETRAYED children? Maybe that's what they should be called---BC. They have been just as betrayed and now have to be betrayed again when daddy has a relationship w/ OC. Why don't we think of it as "cheating" on your children?


*******Now.... another thing.......*****

If OC were so loved, cared for and important enough to have daddies, then no female would have gotten pregnant out of wedlock much less to a married man in the first place. I think OW are just using the "abandonement card" for their own personal satisfaction. Why would they sue for CS if they only wanted thier OC to have a daddy? Why not "sue" to force daddy to be involved?

Why is it so bad that a MM actually has to "think" about being involved w/ OC? Why don't we get upset @ these OW for "thinking" about producing a child that won't have a daddy? ANd OW are not "abandoned" or "left with" a child---they could give it up for adoption where it can have a stable home w/ a mommy and daddy not have to live a life w/o a daddy or not having a stable home because they have to go back and forth! The OW has the sole right to choose the kind of life thier child can/will have and they choose this.

So if OW think it is best for thier child to be born w/o a daddy then why is it so bad for the MM to think the same thing?

Whoa...very good, ktbunch. You have offered a considerable bounty of "food for thought".

You are absolutely right on nearly everything you said. Our BC (I like that one...it is very telling) are relegated to the backburner in almost all cases. No one ever thinks about these kids except for their parents. The outraged cry from OP's for equality for their OC's drowns out the needs and concern for the BC. The weeping and gnashing of teeth and cries of abandonment we hear are so loud and vocal that we get sucked into what is best for OC and almost all consideration is focused on OC while our BC are ignored and dismissed all along by the OP and sometimes by us in our efforts to be fair and do the right thing.

The OP certainly never cared about the BC so I can see where it is difficult for BW to feel empathy for their plight.

They work on our guilt and sense of decency and fair play while it is apparent that they never even felt bad about what they were doing to destroy the lives of these BC's. In fact, the BC's are rarely mentioned or discussed on either board. It's always about the OC and the mewlings of "ain't it awful". It's pretty out of proportion, isn't it?

Why do we get ourselves sucked into that? Because we care deeply about ALL the kids and want happiness and security for them. It isn't our faults they might not have it but we have legions of OW who have come here in the past making demands, shaming and guilting us (successfully, I might add) and calling us names on their board and all this stupid stuff that goes on and on and on and on.

How about we all just mind our own families and accept responsibility for whatever we did to screw up the lives of our own kids and just stop being so outraged that OC doesn't have Dad. If they get CS, they have not been abandoned and that's that. Bio dad is otherwise engaged and has his own family to tend to so it is up to bio mom to find a suitable father to replace bio dad and make a nice stable secure and loving home for OC and WS & BW will pay CS and wish them well. End of story. I don't think anyone should expect anymore than that from this difficult and horrible situation.

We keep having these debates on a regular basis, rehashing the same issues without success. Perhaps it is time to just let the debate die out and hopefully everyone can bury their outrage and stop playing their abandonment cards and stop feeling guilty for something they had nothing to do with.

You've coined two new phrases here tonight...Betrayed Children and the Abandonment Card. Excellent, kt.

Cat =^^=

As the BW, mother of BC, I think the children of the marriage are not taken into consideration.
My children don't know of the A but know we had problems. However we have talked about other people we knew in that situation. My girls expressed their disgust with the father who betrayed the mother of their friends and had an A.
I know my younger daughter takes great pride in being her daddy's "baby girl" she would be so hurt to learn that she isn't the baby girl ( techincally speaking, she is 15 now) but that daddy has another baby girl younger than she.
Or how about my youngest son, when he learns of his half sister who is 4 mos younger than he is. He will question his dad's love of him and as well as question how his dad could have shown such lack of respect for me.

Finally I have always felt the OW robbed me of the special position I had of being my husband's wife and the mother of his children. To me presenting my husband with children was my right given to me the day we married. Each child was a living symbol of the specialness of our love for one another and that thru these children our love would live on. His betrayal of our vows was incredibly painful; his "gift" of a child by another woman, denigrated something that had been just ours.
I could handle seeing the OC but he didn't want the constant reminder of his "stupidity".
He also felt that the distance between us and her, ( we live in TX, she is in NC) would be prohibitive as far as being involved with her. He also felt the time spent with her deprived our children of his time, especially since he spend most weekdays away from home..
There is no easy answer her, it is a situation that must be dealt with by the parties involved. It is kind of a situation where one size DOES NOT fit all.
We do the best we can, and sadly it might be the OC who suffers, but what if the OC's father had died? What would the OC/OW do for a father figure then? We all cope with the hand that is dealt with us.

TG

I've read this thread with great interest...and I have to agree with what Catnip, KT and Texasgirl has to say.

When Mr."T" was in court (We filed to establish paternity and set up the CS etc...we never ran away or tried to "not" pay. We knew we had to pay Child support and wanted to make sure the child was his before shelling out anymore money)The court did not consider the children of the marriage...I believe they counted only one of the children, as they told Mr."T" that I could go out and support the other child. They didn't care that we have three children at home already that Mr."T" supported 100%.

As a result, financially we are bankrupt. We are filing for bankruptcy because we cannot pay it all.

In our particular case, the ex-ow knew that there was a wife and children of the home and she didn't care. She told me she wanted him and I am quoting her exactly, "I thought he would change his mind and leave you and the children to make a home for me and OC"...she thought wrong.

As the others have stated numerous times, there is no one size fits all in this situation and I can speak from experience from being blindsided by this...it is awful, the worse thing in the world and no one gives a crap about my kids, except me. (and Mr."T").

We chose NC for a variety of reasons and it works for us. We pay our child support faithfully, even to the point where it's ramon noodles for the children of the home (Thank God we qualify for WIC) and we pay for 66% of the medical and OC is on our insurance.

Yes, we look at ourselves in the mirror everyday and can live with ourselves. We are moving on and growing stronger each day.

It's amazing what two selfish individuals(OP and WS) can do to a whole slew of people...amazing...
the ripple effect astounds me.

Twiisty

Catnip...I disagree with almost 100% of what you write but I do have a question for you that does not involve the NC debate, or not directly.

You said and I am paraphrasing, that many will seek contact after a two year period of NC. Now I ask you this...is that fair to the OC or the OW? In my opinion, I would rather he disappear forever that march back into mine and my child's life after two years of not giving a crap about his baby. What if I have moved on, have a step father for my child? Am I then supposed to throw all of that out the window to accomodate a man who can not make up his mind?

First he wanted contact, then he didn't, now he does again? Please. When do I get to live my life without having to deal with his on again, off again presence in his child's life? How to screw up a child 101 don't ya think? In my eyes, I see that as pure revenge, screw up OC to get back at OW. If you want NC, then stick to it, let the OC have a real father.

**I am not condonning NC, but nor can I control that decision.

Twilight

It goes both ways. There are as many MM playing games with NC as the OW. You have your MM that want NC then want it only to back off again. Then you have your OW who tell the MM he can have contact only to stop it cause things aren't going her way. The games need to stop.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by twilight:
<strong> Catnip...I disagree with almost 100% of what you write but I do have a question for you that does not involve the NC debate, or not directly.

=^^= That's OK. I guess we are "supposed to" disagree and neither side will ever be able to understand the other's side entirely.

You said and I am paraphrasing, that many will seek contact after a two year period of NC. Now I ask you this...is that fair to the OC or the OW?

=^^= Life's not fair. It certainly wasn't fair to the BW or her BC. It takes at least that long for a marriage to rebuild after such a huge emotional shipwreck. No one can "control" the time it takes...people just have to let it run its course and hope that with concentrated effort, it can happen sooner rather than later. I don't think many BW's care whether or not this schedule is fair or accomodates the OW as they blame the OW for causing this emotional shipwreck to begin with. And I suppose the OC is a source of angst in the beginning and most BW's just assume the OW will take care of their own child while the BW and WS try to rebuild their lives. I don't know, Twilight. It's all so convoluded for everyone involved. Nothing is fair...to ANYONE...especially the BW & the BC and OC. The "time" element that is your issue is something that can't be controlled and I know OW's are impatient to get what they want and what they want for their OC, but that's not the BW's problem, I guess. All we can do is feel bad for OC and hope that OC is being loved and cared for. BW's have their own pain and issues and most of all their own BC to think about. Asking a BW to bend or accomodate an OW who has intruded into her life is enormous crust. A BW will probably want to be involved after she has had time to heal but to expect it sooner than that is pretty unaccomodating of OW's after what they have done to her life. I guess there is a lot for both sides to suck up.

In my opinion, I would rather he disappear forever that march back into mine and my child's life after two years of not giving a crap about his baby.

=^^= A bio dad's absence doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't give a crap about his child. It might mean that he just has other obligations to his family. I think all bio dads should be accomodating and not fight OW's on every level pertaining to suppport and work to arrange fair and reasoanble support, but other than that, I just don't know what else can be done for OC unless everyone lives in the same area (that makes a HUGE difference) and there is no "distance" issues and the BW is open to C. Every situation is different. There are plenty of working C situations, especially where everyone lives nearby. Two years is a long time to expect a child to wait around for a father figure but how much of a father could he be anyway? He certainly wouldn't be around very much in most situations anyway. I just don't know what everyone expects and I don't see many happy solutions for most.

What if I have moved on, have a step father for my child? Am I then supposed to throw all of that out the window to accomodate a man who can not make up his mind?

=^^= Hopefully, he would do the decent thing and walk away and let your child have stability and his family without interference. You should not have to accomodate XMM simply because he is bio dad. Big deal. The real Dad is the one who loves and cares for OC and raises OC. No, TL, I agree with you and think you should move on and not accomodate XMM.

First he wanted contact, then he didn't, now he does again? Please. When do I get to live my life without having to deal with his on again, off again presence in his child's life? If you want NC, then stick to it, let the OC have a real father.

=^^= I agree completely. In this case, if I were you, I would take control of the situation and tell him there will be NC and not let him "decide" any longer. Now it is up to you. He forfeited his chance at making this call by being wishy-washy.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good luck to you, Twilight. I know you are going through some really tough times right now and you are hurt and confused, but Hope is doing well and she is gaining strength and health and that is the best news. God bless, TL. You're a good kid in a nasty place and I hope you will take control because you do have the power.

Even though we don't agree, you are very respectful to us and having you here gives us/me another perspective. These boards, after all, are all about enlightenement.

Catnip =^^=

<small>[ November 26, 2003, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

If the OW gets a new man in her life and father for OC and MM has been having NC......why would he suddenly want to start C? If there was a new father then there would be no reason for MM in the picture @ all, unless OW was still collecting CS.

Why would OW still collect CS if there was a new father? If OW wanted to keep NC, then have new father legally adopt OC and then it's all over completely. MM cannot just waltz right back into OC life because now he is no longer the father, he would no longer be responsible for CS either so I think many MM, who have NC would agree to this.

There are always options to choose, OW just have to choose them. Most WS are not monsters, they do care about children that is why they choose to stay with thier original children and are trying not to make the horrible situation they have created, even worse. Even though they usually regret A w/ OW, they still would be happy for her to have another, good life and would be happy for OC to have a real father in her life and OW to have a husband.

The type of men who try to play games like this usually can't keep their marriages together either and end up being single. They are still lost in a selfish fog and have chosen to hurt every one rather then save something. They don't care about any one but themselves and since that is true, if they decided to have C again, it would not even last. They, most likely, just proposed it to get CS lowered and you will see that it won't even be that many visits and they will flake out. They are different from the MM who stayed married and are really trying. I don't think the ones who are really trying are into playing games.

It takes some maturity to wake up and realize the mess you've made and work hard at repairing it and maturity is past playing games.

there was/is a discussion on the other board about terminating parental rights. I believe in most states there has to be 2 years of NC to go ahead with that based on abandonment. I would gladly give up CS if Hope had a step father. Right now, in my current situation, giving up CS is not an option...I wouldn't make it financially. Even if, in a few years I get my career back on track and could make it on my own...I would like to terminate rights and give up CS. In my mind, if he walks away, then stay gone. Catnip...I do agree on one thing, the distance makes contact next to impossible and in my particular case I think NC is the better option more everyday. That being said...I am angry today, my court date is today, and I am on edge...so my posts are coloured with it.

Also Catnip...thank you for your compliment and your good wishes.

'nother board on the opposite side of an OW board on an anti-cheat site http://www.scarleta.com, that contains one monitored board in particular that reviles and ridicules the cheats who post on *support* boards. Not for everyone, particularly if you think society should dumb down and accept the cheating antics of actively-screwing-around socioapaths. But if you find it kind of amazing, as I do, that a cheater could post on a marriage-building board and get pats on the back, you might enjoy reading.

"But if you find it kind of amazing, as I do, that a cheater could post on a marriage-building board and get pats on the back,"

Dac,

Twilight does not get "pats on the back" for being a cheater on MB. We have lots of cheaters here (former WS's <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) and none of them are hung on a cross. She has been very respectful of the pain on this board while seeking answers and solutions for her particular situation. She comes here as a woman in pain, wanting help and in a difficult situation. And she is responded to as such.

Dac, I have "known" you (although not through personal email) for many years through various sites. I understand your pain and anger. Our situations were VERY similar. There was a time several years ago when I needed a site such as yours to vent my rage and hurt. MBer's need to know if they choose to visit this site, it CAN be very graphic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

{{{Dac}}}} wishing you peace and continued healing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't believe that anyone who has not lived through this could even begin to understand the process.

The OC is not a step child, but an OC. There is a huge difference. To compare the two is a complete denial of the feelings of the BW/BC.

KT, good for you to bring up the BC. As usual, nobody ever thinks of them. That is who I advocate for the strongest. These children need and deserve a voice here. The OC is not the only one who is getting hurt.

To say that the adults should handle this in a certain way is a moot point. One adult (BW) was not privy to the EMR. Two other adults created this mess and it is not the job of the BW/BC to make right. Everyone takes it on the chin, including OC. That is the fault of OC parents. Not of the BW/BC.

As for H who stay with their families and go NC. That is their right to do so. It is what is best for the family and most certainly the BC. Why should they have to suffer? Should their dad miss a soccer game to be with OC? Should their dad miss a school function to be with OC? Nope. My H and I choose NC as it was best for our family and our kids. Now that those children are teens, they hate the thought of OC. They do not want to meet OC.

Catnip, you are 100% correct, as usual. Your eloquent writing clearly depicts what we all know and feel.

This is the best thread, to support NC, I have ever read.

So many of you know how to, eloquently, word a message. I say thank-you.

There are so many different situations, and opinions.

I have to say, this is one bunch of STRONG women.

ember

I have to agree with catnip that this particular issue never dies on this board. And it is always the same result.

I raised my OC with no contact and he's just fine--meaning he feels secured in my love. He's all grown up and never has had any desire to knock on MM's door looking for any entitlements. He's also a boy. The results might be different for girl OCs, I don't know? Everybody reacts differently.

Affairs cause pain, and granted half of the pain is self-inflicted, some of the pain is due to being a victim of cheating, lying WS's, and some of the pain is due to being a victim of parents' bad choices.

Nevertheless, I like what one of our long-time MBer's signature line says, "Pain is a given, misery is an option." Once we stop blaming someone else for causing our pain and wanting them to pay for it, we can stop being so miserable. I might be wrong, but I can't help but think that?

Everyone has to move on with life and do what is best for their individual family--whether it is contact or no contact. Each situation is different and people have different ways of coping when life takes unexpected turns.

We all have to ask ourselves what decisions we can we live with and be able to look ourselves in the mirror every day with a good, clear conscience?

Some BS's can't live without contact. Some can. Some OPs expect emotional support and contact, some do not. We get hurt when our expectations of others are not met.

Sure, when we make vows we should be able to expect the other person to uphold their commitment. But then again, it depends on the individual's definition of "commitment." Everybody has their own reality based on their perceptions. & No one can say what is someone else's reality or what they should do based on another person's reality.

The best we can do here is share our own experiences and hope that it helps someone out there sort through the confusion that affairs cause.

TheFemininSide,
Wow! You have made some really great points. Great post. I think that the posters who choose NC will fight tooth and nail for their points because deep down they know, and so does society, that abandoning a child is WRONG. Take away the labels...I'm sure God doesn't see these innocent children as "OC". "God bless the little children, ALL the children of the world"(not just the ones born of marriage).

Like I said before, in some situation NC might be best if a parent did everything they can to make it work. But if there is phisical or mental damage being done to the child it might be best to wait until that parent matures a little.

I would just hate to be carrying around an ulcer like that for the rest of my life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ImNotyou:
<strong>
I think that the posters who choose NC will fight tooth and nail for their points because deep down they know, and so does society, that abandoning a child is WRONG.

=^^= Your implication is that the OC is being abandoned when in fact they receive financial support from bio dad and the care, love and security from their custodial parent. All bases are covered. What else do you expect beyond what is court ordered when the MM is otherwise engaged in his marriage with his wife and their children? What is the criteria (in your opinion) of NOT being "abandoned", according to your interpretation? I'm not trying to be a smart [censored]...I truly want to know what more is expected other than financial support?
When I think of abandonment, I think of a child who has bonded with someone and then suddenly never sees them again and the child is pining away for that person who used to be in their life. There has to be a relationship already established before NC can be construed as "abandonment". Simply choosing NC from the beginning and never having carved a relationship with the child, yet providing significant financial support, is not considered abandonment even by family court standards.

Take away the labels...I'm sure God doesn't see these innocent children as "OC". "God bless the little children, ALL the children of the world"(not just the ones born of marriage).

=^^= And as long as we are waving the flag here, talking loud, puffed and proud and drawing a crowd, God bless the BC.
Maybe God doesn't see OC as OC (which are only abbreviations so when we post it is clear about whom we are speaking) but that's what Other Children are ...Other Children. These children do not belong to us and are not our kids. However, that being said, most BW's eventually come around and are willing to keep the door open once the marriage has healed sufficiently. The healing won't happen on your time line, so patience is required. If no one can wait for the couple to recover their marriage, it's just too bad. That's just the way it is.
TOW come here all the time moaning and whining about the OC while they never for one moment thought about the BC, the precious children from the marriage and their emotional distress, the heartache, sadness, humiliation, stark fear of losing their family and the far reaching ramifications of what the OW has done.

The OC is the OC...a child that belongs to someone barely more than a stranger to many of us Betrayeds. What is it that you expect or want us to do for the OC? Why do want us to care anyway? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Catnip,
I hate to see cut and paste but i don't want to misquote you.

You said...
"When I think of abandonment, I think of a child who has bonded with someone and then suddenly never sees them again and the child is pining away for that person who used to be in their life. There has to be a relationship already established before NC can be construed as "abandonment". Simply choosing NC from the beginning and never having carved a relationship with the child, yet providing significant financial support, is not considered abandonment even by family court standards."

So do you feel that the mother who gives birth to a baby and dumps him/her in the trash is not abandonment?

I feel you create your own terms of what abandonment means to you and that's your porogative.

And I'll repeat it once again. God loves all the children. I never stated anything about disregarding the BC. I said "ALL".

I'm not trying to put my child above anyone else, and I'm not bitter because my childs father isn't in his life, because he is. And that doesn't make my child better than anyone else's. It just makes his father a better person than a man who decides not to have a relationship with his children.

I'm speaking for ALL children. I'm also speaking for my self, a child of MARRIAGE, who's father choose not to have a realationship with me. Yes, I did see him everycouple of years, a phone call 2-3 times a year, and he was eventually forced to pay child support. But i don't consider that being a father AT ALL. So, you must get an idea of what I think of men who abandone their children.

Abondonment doesn't only count if the kids are from marriege.

No one in this forum or world can convince me that these men who do this won't go to their grave with a cloud hanging over their heads.

And I'll repeat it once again. God loves all the children. I never stated anything about disregarding the BC. I said "ALL".

IMNY,
You are correct when you say that God loves ALL/[B] children....He does. But OW's and BS's love their OWN children. You cannot honestly tell me that you love your MM's children like your own child...because if that was the case, you would have waited until Daddy divorced before moving in on another's situation (and yes, I don't know your situation, but we've flogged this dead horse many times on this board in regards to who is to blame).

FACT: "SOME"(not all) married men lie to their wives and their ow's--we've heard and read and seen it all here on this board, "MM wanted a baby with me" etc. etc. etc."Then He lied to me and his wife" etc. etc. etc."the condom broke" "I thought I couldn't have kids" etc. etc. there are many different situations and circumstances for how the little blessed OC bundle arrives...

FACT: some OC's were created in one night stands, black-book affairs and other type affairs listed in the Miscellaneous category...as we've stated before, "no one size fits all" category.These aren't exactly the best situations as there were no relationship between the OP and WS...how do you expect to co-parent with a stranger? In our case, our ex-OW is really wild and wacky...we have differing views on how children should be raised. I guess it would be fair to take it to court all the time and argue about everything and upset two households just so that OC can have some Daddy time, in a household of mixed faiths and views and lifestyles? PUH-LEEZE!

Bottom line: Every person has their own level of what is and what isn't abandonment. Your subjective criteria isn't necessarily what mine or catnip's or anybody else's criteria for abandonment. We live in a country where everyone is entitled to their own personal beliefs, ideas and the right to express their thoughts, opinions and live freely in doing so.

As stated before, this is a marriage building site, and what you have done according to the Harley's principles is painted the MM's that have chosen No Contact with a paintbrush called a disrespectful judgment.

Hon, you have the right to feel and believe and state whatever you wish to, this is the good old U.S.A. and if you are from another country, great, this is the good ole Internet.

Your MM has contact with your child, that's absolutely wonderful. I'm really honestly glad for you and your child and your MM's wife and children that you are all able to work this out. It is truly wonderful and I commend you for it.

God loves ALL children...but many BW's and OW's don't love each other's children and with good reason. If God had ordained open marriages, then it wouldn't be a problem. If God had ordained polygamy, it wouldn't be a problem. But if I understand the covenant of marriage, God ordained it to be ONE man and ONE woman. Should one of the couple chose the route of infidelity, it does break the promises, but the covenant still stands. God first, then Marriage, then children of the marriage and then after that, whatever.
That is how it works.
It makes no provisions for OC's and OP's. Mercifully there is forgiveness and people move on and heal, but it takes TIME which is what most have already written and mentioned.

[B]No one in this forum or world can convince me that these men who do this won't go to their grave with a cloud hanging over their heads.

well, I hate to break the news to you, my husband is one who is more happier now that the truth is out and he is freed from our "Alex Forrest" (Ex-ow...borrowed the name from Fatal Attraction as she was the ex-ow from hell) He considers himself a sperm donor (and there are sperm banks all over the US for couples to have to help them create...are you saying those that donate their sperm abandoned their children too?) I know of a lesbian couple,friends of ours, that had a buddy of ours donate sperm and they are raising the child themselves and the child will not know who the donor is...is that child abandonment?

We could go on and on for days and days, like I said, flogging this dead horse, flogging the birth control dead horse and flogging the child support horse.......

Bottom line again------

Affairs are caused by two selfish people.
Affairs hurt the innocent OC, the innocent BC's and the innocent BS's.
Affairs disrupt the norms and flow of the marriage and if a child is involved, the norms and flow of childhood too. It was never supposed to happen, but it did, now all parties have to suffer some form of consequences from two individuals selfish and thoughtless acts.

My husband is forgiven by God and I believe God understands our reasonings for the route we chose. I know we can look at ourselves in the mirror and have no qualms about anything. Please don't paint everyone with the same brush and I won't paint you as someone who got pregnant on purpose to get money, the man, etc....(I'm not saying you did, but I am not going to paint all OW's with the same brush either...that was just to make a point).

There, that's my two cents which isn't really worth that much, but I'm getting tired of this debate....can we please post some holiday recipes or something?

Sheesh, enough already....
Hugs and prayers and peace to all....
Twiisty

Oh and I'mnot you? I'm glad you aren't me. As I'm sure you're glad you aren't me.....did that confuse anyone? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
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Twisty,

If you look back at my posts, I stated many times that what you, catnip, and others choose for what's best for your family is right for you.

I don't know where you say I'm going against Dr. Harley's principle because I have replied to someother posters and encouraged them to rebuild their marriage.

Your post like so many other's went back and focused on the affiar, and the OW. I'm sure your husband is gland the his xOW is out of his life. But I won't believe that he will ever feel %100 at peace for NC with his child. Again, this is my OPINION. I'm not saying that this is how your husband feels.

And once again my point is that in God's eyes, they are ALL children, and he doesn't love the ones from a marriage any more or less. People who judge people(me, you, and the next person) that get so hung up on labels.

When it comes down to it, it's irrelavent wether I love his kids as my own or his childrens mother loves my child, because HE loves them all the same.

To OW who are so concerned with the issue of "abandonment," and feel strongly that a child must have two parents present:

When you are choosing a lover, make sure he is available to co-parent, should a pregnancy occur. If he isn't able or willing to be a parent to your potential child, don't have sex with him.

Quite simple, really.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ImNotyou:
<strong>Simply choosing NC from the beginning and never having carved a relationship with the child, yet providing significant financial support, is not considered abandonment even by family court standards."

So do you feel that the mother who gives birth to a baby and dumps him/her in the trash is not abandonment?

=^^= Ugh...what a horrible thing to bring up...there is absolutely NO comparison here...of course the bio=Mom is abandoning the life she has nurtured within herself for the preceeding nine months by doing something so unspeakable...but what is worse is that it is often far more than abandonement...it's murder. You're grasping at straws here. It's definitely NOT the same thing in the least.

I feel you create your own terms of what abandonment means to you and that's your porogative.

=^^= Me and the family courts, I guess. And it is YOUR perrogative to wail and bleed for the Other Children. But, I simply ask you (and other OW) to look within themselves. If they are so enormously tortured by the fact that their OC will not have bio-Dad in their life, why would they bring them into this cruel world without one already standing by, without prior commitments? Besides, you STILL have not answered what else you expect the bio-Dad (who is otherwised engaged in a marriage) and his wife, to do besides financial support?

And I'll repeat it once again. God loves all the children. I never stated anything about disregarding the BC. I said "ALL".

=^^= Yeah. So? We all know that. There's no argument there; no one here said anything about disregarding the OC here either...so what's your point?

It just makes his father a better person than a man who decides not to have a relationship with his children.

=^^= Not better than a NC bio-dad, just more accessible perhaps, for many reasons. Perhaps he lives near by and not in another state, perhaps his marriage has healed to the point where his wife is generous enough to go along with it, perhaps he doesn't have a lot of other obligations...there are tons of variables.

So, you must get an idea of what I think of men who abandone their children.

=^^= I understand what you are saying but I don't get your argument...what is it you are demanding or expecting? I guess I don't understand what you want exactly...we are all in agreement the ALL kids are wonderful, so why the heartburn? No one said any differently. I think you are preaching to the choir.

Abondonment doesn't only count if the kids are from marriege.

=^^= It certainly depends on a lot of outside circumstances like if the child is the product of a relatively long term live in arrangement where the bio-dad has been involved with child for some time and then the bio-dad disappears, or through another agreed upon commitment...there are a whole host of reasons, but I don't think having a child with someone else other than your wife constitutes "abandonment" if the OC is supported financially because the Dad is otherwise engaged...he has a family. He has prior commitments and obligations and the women who get pregnant from these guys usually are well aware that they are married from the beginning. The OC's that are product of deception where the OW did NOT know the guy was married is completely innocent as much as the OC, BW and BC and certainly deserves far more consideration than the former and that's just my opinion. But that is just what I think and how I feel about it. It really doesn't have any bearing with your situation or anyone elses.

No one in this forum or world can convince me that these men who do this won't go to their grave with a cloud hanging over their heads.

=^^= Nobody's trying to convince you of anything except to point out some logical realities. Guys don't bond with a kid usually until it is born. They don't spend nine months connected to a infant in utereo, feeling it kick and roll around and do the sommersaults. Day to day, they are usually not there to feed and care for and watch child change and grow. They are busy trying to keep all the dogs at bay and provide. Guys can compartmentalize and remove themselves from the emotionalism of the situation...even in affairs. They might get sucked into the romanticism and sex of an A for ego gratification but that's not really where their heart is in most cases from what the stats say. It is just how they are built. Once they fall in love with a kid, they are usually there for the long haul, but unless that happens, it might not effect them all that much. And no one is trying to convince you of anything. You have your opinions, I have mine, they have theirs and your TOW buddies have theirs and MB women have their perspective. Guys are good and loving and sensitive people and I know there are many who have gone to their grave with huge regrets for the child but my husband says his biggest regret was having an A in the first place and causing me so much needless pain. And that's his huge regret that supercedes his regret for the OC, which comes in somewhere after some other regrets pertaining to our own kids. Maybe he is just heartless...or maybe he has his priorities in order. I guess it just depends on the guy.

I am glad your XMM is actively involved with your child on a regular basis. If that is the case, why are you so upset? It is just life, Kid, and if you don't suck it up, it will eat you alive.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Catnip =^^=

This thread has grown since I last posted. I can see after reading why everyone involved in these type of circumstances feels strongly. It seems it's a matter of mothers (all mothers BW and OW) wanting what is best for their child/ren. Aren't we all programmed that way? I know I would do about anything for my children to protect them from harm and pain.

The debate about blame is too silly to even type. The blame is solely on the OW and MM who created the mess. The innocents are all the kids involved and the BW. That said, I think that blame gets all twisted up with what is moral and right for the father to do regarding his child out of wedlock. To me this has nothing to do with the adults feelings and who is to blame. It only has to do with what is morally right for a father to do.

Not sure who brought up the sperm donor stuff. This is another whole arena. It has nothing to do with this subject. Men that donate sperm know that they can't even be identified and that if a child is created, it will have been created for two people who want a child to raise as their own. That child will not suffer abandonment issues UNLIKE a father who gets his lover pregnant and then abandons that child.

Catnip,
Your points are well thought out and I agree with much of what you say. One point that I don't agree on is your definition of abandonment of a child. Also, responsibility of a father to his child.

Abandonment is more than monetary. Abandonment is physical and emotional, more so even than monetary. There are fathers out there that do not work, so therefore do not give money to support their children, but who do not abandon their children. Many women do not work (SAHM) but do not abandon their children. A father or mother who does not give love, time and energy toward their child on a consistent basis is guilty of abandonment. They are guilty of being irresponsible to a baby that they helped bring into this world.

Someone brought up the subject of a father missing a game to be with his OC. This reminded me of when I had my second child. Every parent who has more than one child knows that with every additional child, time division becomes necessary. When that additional child is in the same "nuclear family", it also take adjustments by all concerned. There isn't a child who's been the baby, then replaced, who doesn't struggle with it. But do mother's get all upset about it? Of course not. There isn't an older child who has a baby brother or sister who doesn't resent him/her a little bit. But do the parents struggle with this? Not really. It is accepted as normal. I guess what I'm saying is that that isn't the issue here. That isn't really the harmful part to children of the original mother and family.

The harmful part to the children from the BW is the "how" this happened. Not the sharing of dad with another. Sharing of a parent can be worked out so as no one suffers. But the explaination of how this child came to be is at the crutch of the matter. Children who find out what their father did have to be hurt by it. I would imagine it would produce insecurities in them to some extent that would need to be worked through. How do you mother's even begin to explain it? I would be without words. The hurt of being an BW was great. Have no idea how I would begin to personally deal with explaining their dad having a child by another woman while married to me to my children.

On the other hand, how does a father, who claims to be a moral, loving, responsible man who loves his children explain to his children that he abandoned another child??? There is no explaination because there is no "right" of it. A child that knows that their father has already abandoned one child is sure to wonder, and rightly so, if/when that same father was going to abandon them. Seems to me the best thing for the children of the BW that know about the OC is to have a father who didn't abandon one of his own. That way dad would have done wrong, but not abandonment.

In the perfect world this situtation wouldn't occur. In the world we live in it does. My hat goes off to those strong, rare BW's who have worked this tough situtation out so as not to do anymore harm than necessary to all children involved and so that none was abandoned by their father. I have great respect for you ladies!!


ktbunch, not sure if you were referencing me when you said that no one ever considers the original children, but that isn't true if you were. While trying to understand this situation, I definitely thought of the original children's needs. I hardly think that sharing a father is harmful to a child. Like I said, the harmful part is the why they have a sibling that isn't from a woman that their father is or was married to. I'm sorry I also don't see a child as being betrayed when they have to share their father with another sibling.

Catnip,
I think that your point of the W and H having to rebuild their marriage first for the benefit of all the children, is a valid one. In any family, the relationship that has to come first is the one between the spouses, otherwise the children suffer. I can understand a slow progression of healing the marital relationship and then slowing bringing the OC into it.

Hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving! Enjoy the remainder of the holiday and count all of your blessings!!

TheFemineSide,

Once again, well put. I look at it this way...Which is more forgivable, a man that had an affair that produced an other child, or a man that abondones his child(any child).

There's this guy that I know of that always has his two sons every where he goes. People comment on what a great father he is. What they don't know is that he has 4 other kids that they don't see because he never sees them. I'm sure they wouldn't be making the same comments.

I do also think it takes a EXTREMELY strong woman to make a marriage work and accept you husbands child.

Catnip,
Who said anything about murder <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> .

Your opinions don't equal facts and vise versa.

I know men who have had a bigger connection emotionally with their unborn child than the mother.

It's funny how you keep saying I'm fighting for the OW/OC when I clearly stated that I was abondone and I'm a child of marriage.

I keep hearing the same theme that your H's aren't abondoning their children because they pay CS. But I hear so many complaints about paying CS. I'm sure if they didn't have to pay they wouldn't just like some xH's try to weasal out of support of the kids from marriage.

INy, my marriage has healed where I would accept contact with OC's. My H is the one that wants NC.

Wouldn't it be interesting if, there were a law that stated, any mother that had a child that was not her H's, would not collect CS of any kind, including welfare. Would the pregnancy rate go down?

Also, you cannot force a person to be a parent. It has to come from the heart. Some people should never be a parent. My H is among them. You can call it abandonment or anything you want. You still would not change his mind.

So, what is your point?

ember

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ImNotyou:
<strong>
Catnip,
Who said anything about murder <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> .

=^^= Well, you did. YOU said something about "what about the mother who dumps her kid in the trash"...and my response was that was more than abandonment...that was murder...(since most of those kids are found dead).

Your opinions don't equal facts and vise versa.

=^^= Of course they do...you just prefer to ignore the logic which is fine.

I know men who have had a bigger connection emotionally with their unborn child than the mother.

=^^= I've seen lots of Dads excited about the impending birth of their child but it was usually with their own wife within a happy marriage.

It's funny how you keep saying I'm fighting for the OW/OC when I clearly stated that I was abondone and I'm a child of marriage.

=^^= I haven't said that nor do I "keep" saying that you are fighting for the OW/OC...I need a quote from you here so I know what you are referring to.

I keep hearing the same theme that your H's aren't abondoning their children because they pay CS. But I hear so many complaints about paying CS.

=^^= What's wrong with complaining about it? Do we have to like it too? YOU would be complaining too if you were already struggling when some opportunist invades your life, coming out of nowhere, uninvited, and ruins your life and then you are suddenly forced to pay for this "privilege" too! It is the ultimate insult to injury. It's like sending a monthly check to your rapist for violating you but since they need "therapy" or a roof over their head at the half way house, you have to pay for it. It's about that logical. If this was happening to you or any other woman on TOW, they would be squawking too..I betcha a bazillion dollars. We are entitled to complain about it. Are you all insisting we "like" paying this out too? Isn't it enough for you that most of you get huge income shares (I know there are exceptions, but I ain't one of them) that equal or exceed a mortgage payment? Don't you think that creates some heartburn? You find out your husband has betrayed you, you find out the OW knew from the beginning he was married, and didn't care, you find out she did not have enough sense to come in out of the rain and protect her own body, and didn't care, you find out she's going to keep a baby that never should have been born to your husband and then you have to pay for it too! Think about it! You are so obtuse to think we should also be pleased about this arrangement and not complain about the money. THAT defies logic, INY. It doesn't make sense.
Money does buy happiness in the sense of buying peace of mind and security....when you have to pay an OW for an OC, it disrupts your security and peace of mind...forever. You struggle to make ends meet, you know you will be forced to work way past retirement and your marriage has this part of it that is always tainted and spoiled and you find you have this demarcation point for all the times BEFORE the A, and everything that has happened SINCE the A. You think maybe you should leave and then you think, "why should I...how can I"? You have a huge complicated mess on your shoulders and you are trying to figure out how this one innocuous person, a complete and total stranger, who really doesn't mean [censored] to anyone you know, including your husband, has the power to destroy your life so completely...just because she wants what she wanted when she wanted it and didn't care about your BC (but, you gotta care about hers!!!!) or how this would effect them or how this would effect a clueless wife or any of the consequences...yet moans, wails, demands, cries and complains about their OC is being abandoned...despite the fact they get pretty enormous CS in a lot of cases. Are we expected to step aside...are many to be sacrificed for ONE?
We ALL only have just ONE life and that life has been ruined and a stranger ruined it...forever. Think about that sentence for a moment without wailing "what about "me"...what about "my" OC???". You got what you were bargaining for...you thought you would be the exception to the rule...the 5% that actually walks into the sunset with the MM...the lottery. But, the other 95% of you lost and lost big. And now you want someone to pay for it and come here scolding us for complaining (we're entitled...it doesn't mean we haven't "accepted" our situation or adjusted to it and glad to do it...we can be glad to do it for OC and still complain about it being a hardhship because that is the reality) making demands that we grin and bear it. Amazing.

Oh, and I like how all the OW on TOW pretend they never read here...cracks me up. They ALL read here regularly (and we know it) while their paranoia is constantly scrutinizing their own kind and chasing their own off their board. And they call us hostile. But, look what we have to deal with when you do come over here...you don't hear a thing we say, you don't listen with an open mind, and you ignore all logic.

I'm sure if they didn't have to pay they wouldn't just like some xH's try to weasal out of support of the kids from marriage.

=^^= This sentence structure is so poor, I don't understand exactly what you are saying. But I'll take a wild guess and respond anyway just for fun. "I" was divorced and never received one dime of support. My husband had custody of his two children and I raised them as my own and we did not get one dime of support. However, we pay $1500 per month CS which is 65% of my husband's take home pay to OW for OC and she lives at home with Mom and Dad and is pushing 40...no expenses. The kid must have ermine sleepers...but I don't think so. OW just has a shiny new Lexus. CS is supposed to be 17%. Seventeen percent is fair and reasonable. Even though I/we didn't get any CS from our former spouses, we both feel obliged to pay 17% of my husband's salary to Ow for OC...not 65%. We want OC to be financially supported and do not begrudge her anything. We want her to be happy, secure and have all her needs met and I hope her mother is providing a stable environment for her as best she can as a single mother. I was a single mother without CS and I know what it's like, but we managed just fine without anything but my salary.
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TheFeminineSide:
<strong> To me this has nothing to do with the adults feelings and who is to blame. It only has to do with what is morally right for a father to do.

=^^= Thank you for your response. I agree this is all about what is morally right. However, I don't think it serves anyone if a man leaves his wife and his children.

Not sure who brought up the sperm donor stuff. it will have been created for two people who want a child to raise as their own.

=^^= Stats say that more often than not it is for a SINGLE parent

That child will not suffer abandonment issues UNLIKE a father who gets his lover pregnant and then abandons that child.

=^^= I guess I disagree because I see it as the same thing basically. The only difference is that the OC child is getting CS. If the OW's attitude is that of being rejected and abandoned, then it will rub off on the kid and the kid will feel that way too. It would be nice if the OW could just take her lumps like BW's have to and just deal with it and stop complaining (as BW's complain about having to fork out $) But, that is just my opinion. Do you have a suggestion of what you think this should play out to everyone's benefit? I just see someone ending up unhappy about the outcome and that is pretty much the way life is.

One point that I don't agree on is your definition of abandonment of a child. Also, responsibility of a father to his child.

=^^= OK...you say tomato, I say to-mah-to. It just turns out to be two (or three) schools of thought and it will aways be that way. This debate is kind of futile and I concede that you and others see things differently and that's OK with me. I completely respect your position and would never try to change your mind, however, I will speak my mind whether or not anyone is listening. But, most of all because you put it in such a gracious and respectful way. I am pretty tunnel visioned on this for myself so I don't see me changing my mind either...which is OK.

There are fathers out there that do not work, so therefore do not give money to support their children, but who do not abandon their children.

=^^= Lots and lots and lots of different situtions. I still maintain that there has to have been a bonding already created in order for it to be construed as abandonemnt, but that is just my POV.

Someone brought up the subject of a father missing a game to be with his OC. This reminded me of when I had my second child. Every parent who has more than one child knows that with every additional child, time division becomes necessary.

=^^= True. However, you did not have to share your Dad with another child born of a humiliating situation that you might have been resentful of or jealous of...or feel threatened or insecure. The OC does not live in the same house with the Bio-dad and BW and BS's.

When that additional child is in the same "nuclear family", it also take adjustments by all concerned.

=^^= The OW and OC are not part of the nuclear family of the BW and BC or even bio-dad

There isn't a child who's been the baby, then replaced, who doesn't struggle with it. But do mother's get all upset about it? Of course not.

=^^= The ONLY time I have ever seen this remotely comparable is when the OC is from the WW and lives with her and her BH and their children (like Mom of Five and Pops) together...or a situation like Stacia's. With those people, it is entirely different. Theya re live together on a day to day basis and form deepm and meaningful bonds of love and protection for one another. They work it out and find ways to cope because it is all right there in front of them all the time. It isn't the same in a bio-dad family with BW and BC's.

But the explaination of how this child came to be is at the crutch of the matter. Children who find out what their father did have to be hurt by it. I would imagine it would produce insecurities in them to some extent that would need to be worked through.

=^^= And because the BW is on high alert, she is compelled to protect her children from as much pain, humiliation and fear as possible and this is one of the primary reasons for NC.

how I would begin to personally deal with explaining their dad having a child by another woman while married to me to my children.

=^^= Many refuse to even do it or find the taks so daunting and difficult, they choose NC to spare their children from soemthing so distasteful.

On the other hand, how does a father, who claims to be a moral, loving, responsible man who loves his children explain to his children that he abandoned another child???

=^^= In our case, we haven't said a word because my husband has not abandoned OC since he has never seen her, binded with her, met her but pays enormous CS. We also haven't said anything since we feel it is no one's business but our own. Since we are several states away and OW wants NC, we have no need to devastate our kids.

Seems to me the best thing for the children of the BW that know about the OC is to have a father who didn't abandon one of his own. That way dad would have done wrong, but not abandonment.

=^^= I guess it depends entirely on the specific issues of each couples particular set of circumstances.

My hat goes off to those strong, rare BW's who have worked this tough situtation out so as not to do anymore harm than necessary to all children involved and so that none was abandoned by their father. I have great respect for you ladies!!

=^^= There are a lot of them on MB. There is Stacia, Mary Janes, cdcollins, Zebrababy, Gem, and several otehrs. Unfortunately, the OW in most of those cases made contact impossible and it had to be terminated, but in the ones who are still diligently working to keep the OC a part of their family, they are truly valiant. And the ones who tried and failed (through no fault of their own) are valiant as well for even making the effort.

I'm sorry I also don't see a child as being betrayed when they have to share their father with another sibling.

=^^= I know this is to ktbunch and I probably shouldn't butt in but I don't think she meant sharing dad with another sib is the heartburn here...I think she meant that a child of the marriage is a betrayed child when they are suddenly forced to share dad with an OC not born to their own Mom but their dad's illicit affair....which is different than a step sib because they were born of dad's previous marriage and is socially accepted.

Hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving! Enjoy the remainder of the holiday and count all of your blessings!!

=^^= We had a blast. We went out this year and then to a movie and had a wonderful day. The ONLY bad thing about going out is there are no leftovers. We came home and talked a long time about all the things we are grateful for and how far we have come. this time of year is very difficult for me as a rule (anniversary of A) but this eyar I got through all of it without any angst at all. Well, maybe a slight tinge, but nothing remarkable. Last year was less awful than the year before... like all the preceding years. I seem to only get all fired up here on these boards...especially after I've been reading "over there"...hahaha.

I hope your Thanksgiving was blessed.
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ember:
<strong> INy, my marriage has healed where I would accept contact with OC's. My H is the one that wants NC.

Wouldn't it be interesting if, there were a law that stated, any mother that had a child that was not her H's, would not collect CS of any kind, including welfare. Would the pregnancy rate go down?

Also, you cannot force a person to be a parent. It has to come from the heart. Some people should never be a parent. My H is among them. You can call it abandonment or anything you want. You still would not change his mind.

So, what is your point?

ember </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ember, I totally agree with about the comment about you can't be a parent if your heart is not in it. I don't feel the rate would go down though of ow getting pregnant. It would just still be as it was in years past......VERY BIG SECERTS. Not all women get pregnant on purpose, but I do know some do.

The OC is NOT A SIBLING. What on earth do these OW think? For crying out loud. They expect the whole world to revolve around them and their child, and to hell with the rest of the people involved. What a bunch a self centered baloney.


I would like to ask the OW here, just what do you expect? My husband sees the OC as the biggest mistake of his life. He does not lose sleep over not raising the boy.

NO contact is the best way to go for the nuclear family. If this bugs the OW, well to damm bad. She should have thought of that before she broght a child into the world that didn't have a father available. The OC is not going to miss a father s/he never knew. It is yet another manipulative ploy of OW across the land to cry "..my poor child... ..." YADA YADA YADA. Well these same women think absolutely nothing of the feelings for the children of the marriage. They are heartless women who do not see the pain these relationships cause the BC. But they don't care.

As for sharing a sibling, get real here. A child born to the marriage where there already is a baby, is a sibling. The first born sees the excitement, gets jelous, nervous of the new baby. When new baby is born, of course they are jelous. That is why every family knows that it is important to spend lots of time with older children. As time goes by, siblings fall in love with each other. There are times when one child has a soccer game and daddy (or mommy) can't come. But, if a father was to miss his BC game to go spend time with a child born of humiliation, and disgrace, that would be robbing the BC. The OC is raised by a "enemy" of the marriage. No BC should have to suffer the pain of dad being with OC if they want their dad with them. He owes them first and foremost.

As for no contact, the OW have to learn that what is best for their child may not be what the family wants. If it is hurtfull and harmfull tot he BC and BW, No Contact is best. Now if this is painfull to the OW/OC, well they have to take their share of the pain. It should not all fall on the shoulders of the BW/BC to adjust their lives and morals and thinking to accomodate people who could care less about the family in the first place.

Catnip,

YOU said something about murder NOT ME, and now youR comparing child support to rape. I'm lost for words as to what goes through your mind. For as long as I've been lurking here, I've seen you use metaphors in your responses that are illogical and try to put word in a posters mouth if you don't agree.

I didn't get a chance to read your whole post. I just notice, that once again your focus is not on the child.

Maybe later or tomorrow when I have nothing else to do I'll read the whole thing.

Catnip does a great job on her messages. Her views are those of many. I can see where an OW would not like it. But isn't the OW mantra "the marriage is none of my business???" Well, it is none of your business. Just as the OC is none of the BW business. Just as the decision of the couple to no contact is not OW business.

Catnip. You do a great job, keep it up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by ImNotyou:
Catnip,
I hate to see cut and paste but i don't want to misquote you.

You said...
"When I think of abandonment, I think of a child who has bonded with someone and then suddenly never sees them again and the child is pining away for that person who used to be in their life. There has to be a relationship already established before NC can be construed as "abandonment". Simply choosing NC from the beginning and never having carved a relationship with the child, yet providing significant financial support, is not considered abandonment even by family court standards."

So do you feel that the mother who gives birth to a baby and dumps him/her in the trash is not abandonment?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHAT are you comparing?

1. A man who choses NC but pays CS ....

to

2. A woman who dumps an infant in a trash bin....

~~~~~~~~

THESE are really not comparable situations. One is a criminal act, and the other is legal in the courts.

For some reason, this pseudo-comparison really tee'd me off!

If a mother gives birth to a baby and cannot care for him/her ... and she takes that baby to the authorities, and turns the baby over so the child can be cared for and loved .... THAT is NOT abandonment. That is relinquishing parental rights, and doing so in a responsible way so that the child still has a chance of having a good life.

I have 2 children who were relinquished by their mother and father(s) .... how DARE YOU compare their situation to putting a baby into a dumpster.

RE-think your logic, it is faulty.

Pep

<small>[ November 29, 2003, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ImNotyou:
<strong> Catnip,

YOU said something about murder NOT ME, and now youR comparing child support to rape.

=^^= I'm not going to beat this horse over and over with you since you are not taking it in and can't grasp what I was trying to say. I really don't care.

I'm lost for words as to what goes through your mind. For as long as I've been lurking here, I've seen you use metaphors in your responses that are illogical and try to put word in a posters mouth if you don't agree.

=^^= Quite the contrary...I simply voice my point of view and I always respect other people's point of view. I nhever try to change anyone's mind. Just because I am vehement about my point does not mean you or anyone else has to go along with it...not in the least. Most of my metaphors are logical to the majority of thoughtful people who know these analogies are just that...analogies. I may be a lot of things, I don't deny it, but I am nothing if not logical. I might not bat 100 but I am damn close.

I didn't get a chance to read your whole post. I just notice, that once again your focus is not on the child.

=^^= And why the hell should it be??? It ain't MY kid.

Maybe later or tomorrow when I have nothing else to do I'll read the whole thing.

=^^= Really...please don't. You'll just get upset and misinterpret everything.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ImNotyou:
<strong> Catnip,

YOU said something about murder NOT ME, and now youR comparing child support to rape.

=^^= I'm not going to beat this horse over and over with you since you are not taking it in and can't grasp what I was trying to say. I really don't care. Any time one is violated and forced into something they have no say in is a form of rape...in this case, emotional rape. And that's just my opinion and my analogy.

I'm lost for words as to what goes through your mind. For as long as I've been lurking here, I've seen you use metaphors in your responses that are illogical and try to put word in a posters mouth if you don't agree.

=^^= Quite the contrary...I simply voice my point of view and I always respect other people's point of view. I nhever try to change anyone's mind. Just because I am vehement about my point does not mean you or anyone else has to go along with it...not in the least. Most of my metaphors are logical to the majority of thoughtful people who know these analogies are just that...analogies. I may be a lot of things, I don't deny it, but I am nothing if not logical. I might not bat 100 but I am damn close.

I didn't get a chance to read your whole post. I just notice, that once again your focus is not on the child.

=^^= And why the hell should it be??? It ain't MY kid.

Maybe later or tomorrow when I have nothing else to do I'll read the whole thing.

=^^= Really...please don't. You'll just get upset and misinterpret everything.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHAT are you comparing?

1. A man who choses NC but pays CS ....

to

2. A woman who dumps an infant in a trash bin....

~~~~~~~~

THESE are really not comparable situations. One is a criminal act, and the other is legal in the courts.

For some reason, this pseudo-comparison really tee'd me off!

If a mother gives birth to a baby and cannot care for him/her ... and she takes that baby to the authorities, and turns the baby over so the child can be cared for and loved .... THAT is NOT abandonment. That is relinquishing parental rights, and doing so in a responsible way so that the child still has a chance of having a good life.

RE-think your logic, it is faulty.

Pepperband...I agree with you...I was not the one who compared a MM's decision to NC to a mother dumping her child in the trash. Just so you know.

Catnip =^^=

Pep </strong>[/QUOTE]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ImNotyou:
<strong> your focus is not on the child. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Um...this is MARRIAGE BUILDERS...where the marriage comes first.

OW don't understand such concepts as the marriage coming first, or the needs of their children coming first. If a father is so important to them, why don't they put their children up for adoption so they can be raised in an in-tact, two parent home? Oh, that's right, I forgot, that would require a selfLESS act.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
As for sharing a sibling, get real here. A child born to the marriage where there already is a baby, is a sibling. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So this is to say that my sister born from my mother, one night stand, ins't considered a real sibling to me?? Or my sister from my father isn't one either??

I agree with most of what you say, but this isn't one of them. The OC from my H is considered a brother to our children. Just my opinion.

<small>[ November 29, 2003, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Crazymum ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by AnnieK:
<strong> OW don't understand such concepts as the marriage coming first, or the needs of their children coming first. If a father is so important to them, why don't they put their children up for adoption so they can be raised in an in-tact, two parent home? Oh, that's right, I forgot, that would require a selfLESS act. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Annie, because 2 people concieved a child out of sin the person carring that baby and bonding should just toss him/her away? I would say the selfless act is taking the responsabilty for the actions taken. I realize the only legal obligation is cs., but I've seen two post now that you repeated yourself about adoption. I'm capable of raising my child without the father. He will pay cs.....he helped make this child, but as far as being in her life.....oh well...it's his cross to bear, and if he CAN live with that than great. I'm doing what's best and what I feel I can live with.

Pepperband...I agree with you...I was not the one who compared a MM's decision to NC to a mother dumping her child in the trash. Just so you know.

Catnip =^^=

I know Cat, I know
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by needtomoveon:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by AnnieK:
<strong> OW don't understand such concepts as the marriage coming first, or the needs of their children coming first. If a father is so important to them, why don't they put their children up for adoption so they can be raised in an in-tact, two parent home? Oh, that's right, I forgot, that would require a selfLESS act. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Annie, because 2 people concieved a child out of sin the person carring that baby and bonding should just toss him/her away? I would say the selfless act is taking the responsabilty for the actions taken. I realize the only legal obligation is cs., but I've seen two post now that you repeated yourself about adoption. I'm capable of raising my child without the father. He will pay cs.....he helped make this child, but as far as being in her life.....oh well...it's his cross to bear, and if he CAN live with that than great. I'm doing what's best and what I feel I can live with. Also, as a other women, I do take marriage seriously. OK, for the 100 time, I'm admitted I've made a grave mistake, but I'd still be married to my stbxh if he would of taken our marriage seriously and put it first, second, third, hell I would of even settled for 20th.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Adoption is not throwing a child away. It is giving a child an opportunity to grow up in a loving, two parent home. There are so many couples that are incapable of having children of their own that can provide these kids with wonderful lives.

Children of affairs grow up knowing they were a mistake. Adopted children grow up knowing they were chosen. I know which one I'd rather be.

You brought up "responsbility". The responsbility of raising a child involves doing what is best for that child even if it means hurting yourself. Your child's needs are far mar important than your own desires.

Yes, giving up a child you have carried for 9 months hurts tremendously, but it is the best solution for all involved. The new parents receive the opportunity to raise a child they desperately want; the child has a shot at a normal life; the WS/BS get the opportunity to try to restore their marriage; and finally the OW, while hurting, knows that she did the right thing for her child and that she made the best of a bad situation.

I do understand that most OW would never put a child up for adoption. If they were capable of putting the needs of others ahead of their own desires, they wouldn't be OW in the first place.

Children DO NOT exist to fulfill the wants/desires of parents. Parents exist to fulfill the needs of children.

You guys are on a marriage building site. If you want sympathy and pats on the back for making one wrong choice after another, go back to the other board.

AnnieK

Annie: I'm sorry, I don't agree. I have twins, and basically I am raising them on my own. I concieved them with my xh through invitro, because we are no longer together and there father is mostly absent should I put them up for adoption? Yes, the ow should put (any women for that matter) them up for adoption if she can't hold a job and give them a roof over there head. Yes, if that person is an additic and can't put her child's needs before her own. Although the two parent thing is the ideal, it's not always the way it is. Although my child was a mistake, she will never know she was. I will raise her in a way that she will know she is wanted by me and my family and friends and there will be no bitterness towards her father. That is ideal for her to grow up and have a chance to have normal relationship with someone special. I already put the needs of my kids first. I'm putting the needs of my unborn child first as well. Adoption is a good cop out for the ws/bs so they don't have to deal with the oc. No one is asking them to see these oc. Just do what is expected by law. No matter what the personal feelings are regarding the contact. You want the ow to hurt by giving her child up. You as a bs have chosen to stay in the marriage and rebuild it. That is great. The ow has chosen to keep her child. That is something she can live with. I for one can't take back the mistakes I've made, but really now, it's over and everybody has to accept the end results of this. The bs, that she will with her uh paying cs for years to come, the ow that she was lied to as well and was dumped as soon as the the bs found out or got pregnant. The oc will never have her/his bio father around the bc knowing what happened. If explained right and the father takes his responsibilites with his family things can work out for them.....the same with the ow. Your forgiving your husband for this, why don't you stop and realize that the ow has feelings too and your making her out to be a monster for giving her child up. Not all ow are stalkers, and phone hanger upers and calling the xmm to harrase his family and give grieve to his wife. Just as not all bs are evil witches ready to pull the plug on the ow and her children. Adoption is a very selfless jester. I above anyone know this with what I've gone through in the past. It is about one of the most selfless things a parent can do under the circumstances of not being able to provide or as in a young girl not even able to take care of herself etc. 7 years ago, I would of loved for someone to offer me there baby that could not take care of it. Just because your single does not mean you can't take good and loving care of your child.

lynn,,,,,, your views are certainly distorted.

--------------------------------------------
The OC is NOT A SIBLING
--------------------------------------------
this is just personal opinion with no bases.
the oc is most definetly a sibling. 1/2 the mothers or fathers blood makes that c a 1/2 bro/sis. that is a fact. that oc may not be accepted by the bs's as an equal but that is the bs's problem.


---------------------------------------------
My husband sees the OC as the biggest mistake of his life.
-----------------------------------------------
and your h is misquided. he is placing blame on a child instead of taking responsibility for his own actions. that oc did nothing. he/she did not commit adultry, she/he did not break any wedding vows, and he/she does not deserve to be considered the biggest mistake of his life. the biggest mistake of your h's life was HIS decision to stick his sausage in a woman other then HIS WIFE. your oc is just a consequence to HIS biggest mistake.

TO ALL,,,,,,,, i have spot read this thread and it makes me wonder what kind of selfrighteous people society has created. sure these are extreme situations that we are all dealing with. but that does not mean one size fits all. for some nc is the way to go. that is fine if that is what works for them. for others contact works best. so what. but to see people continually blame
a CHILD for the actions of 2 adults is plain and simple WRONG.

ow need to understand that if a mm chooses nc then tough, move on with your life and deal with it. there are an awful lot of everyday dads that get a 1 night stand girl pregnant and are never heard from again by her. no broken trust issues but same-same with nc issue.

for a bs whose ws chooses contact. so be it. your mate's heart has been spoken. you don't have to like it or put up with it. now you have some hard choices to make. move on with your life and deal with it.

and the answer is NO, NO, NO. the oc deserves no special treatment. they are just CHILDREN and as such should be placed on an even playing field with ALL children. that does not mean that contact is a must just that they don't deserve to be the scape goats for what at the time of their conseption were 2 (COUNT THEM) 2 selffish adults.

<small>[ November 30, 2003, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

In my case H BEGGED OW to have an abortion or put the child up for adoption. He made it PERFECTLY clear that he did not want to parent a child with her. So are you telling me that now he should simply shrug his shoulders and say OK, if you want me to parent this child, I will. Even though I made it PERFECTLY clear I didn't want to.
As far as the old argument that if he didn't want children he should not have had sex. Why do we hold men to that standard and not women? If a women decides for whatever reason she does not wish to be a parent then she can abort, put the child up for adoption and in some states drop the child off at a "safe" location and walk away no questions asked. Then we all say what a selfless person she is or she was in such a difficult situation that she had no choice and no one will ever think the less of her.
But if a man says I am not ready to parent this child, I didn't want this child and he walks away he is labled a SOB.
SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS DOUBLE STANDARD TO ME !!!
If a person should not have sex if they don't want children, then do not we, as a society, need to remove the option of abortion and adoption from women?

jtigger

Needtomoveon said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I for one can't take back the mistakes I've made, but really now, it's over and everybody has to accept the end results of this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree completely but would say it just a bit differently... everybody has to make decisions that are right for them based on the end results.

It may not be right for everyone to accept the OC into their home and hearts. But I certainly believe it is wrong to make assumptions about a child based on your own pain and contempt for what that child's parents did.

I grew up in the "ideal family" -- at least that is what we were told years ago. Two parents who were devoted to each other until the day they died. A stay-at-home mom who made hot lunch for me and had dinner on the table on time. If your family did not look like the ones on TV than you were made to feel there was something wrong with you.

Already the idea of "ideal" has changed. The great majority of mothers cannot afford to be home full time -- they need the money. Look around you -- you will see many thriving and happy single-parent families. Some of those families started off as two-parent families but through divorce or death are now one-parent.

I could never see myself advocating either abortion or adoption for an OW simply to make my life easier as a BS. But for that matter, I also do not see any child being "brought up in shame" unless there are adults around like some on this thread to constantly drill in their heads that they were a "mistake". Personally, I don't understand how anyone could say that about a child.

The situation in which OCs are born are definitely not the best of circumstances, but I am sorry, I could never consider a child as a mistake.

Pops said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i have spot read this thread and it makes me wonder what kind of selfrighteous people society has created. sure these are extreme situations that we are all dealing with. but that does not mean one size fits all. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">God bless you Pops for always getting to the heart of things. Everyone is free to have their opinions. But when opinions are presented as a fact, straight from the Bible, not to be argued or debated, then some of us have a problem with that. Where is the rule that says only children of a marriage are "real children"? Or since when are children so judgemental that they will say they want nothing to do with the OC because the OC represents the parent's betrayal? Sounds to me like something the parents are either telling the child or inadvertently showing the child through their own behaviour.

I speak only of my situation and hope that those out there who have compassion and true forgiveness in their hearts can be helped by my experiences.

When I found out my husband had a daughter with another woman, I had two choices. Deal with it or leave. As Needtomoveon said, this is one error of judgement that cannot be changed -- cannot be taken back. Wishing and hoping that the child was not created will not change it.

It is possible to have a rebuilt marriage as strong or even stronger than the one you had. And, it is possible to have contact with an OC without shame and disgust. But that depends on how you handle the situation and what the two parties involved (husband and wife) can agree on.

Every MM does not want to disown his child and merely pay the CS. If he is pretending to want NC because he sees that it is hurting the BS too much then sooner or later that need to be a parent will come out. It may come out in the form of sneaking to see the child (my H did in the beginning) or it may come out as accusations and bitterness against the BS many years later.

In the beginning everyone's feeling are too raw to consider this issue correctly. It is best to concentrate on building a safe place within the marriage before talking about the future with the OC. Then, I would be guided by each other's wishes, not any rhetoric that you read on an internet board. There is no "one size fits all".

The thing that really makes me mad is that there are so many BS's trying to "one-up" the OP. Waving a flag and saying "Look, he chose me. He never loved you. You were only easy sex for him." In reality, the WS told so many lies to so many people (especially the spouses) I don't see how anything that came out of the WS mouth during the affair or immediately after discovery (when they are convicing you it was all a mistake) can be considered as honest or true.

My H would have said anything to turn our marriage around. And isn't if funny that the A is only a mistake after discovery -- but it is not a mistake when it is going on for 2 or 3 years! I am not so naive. I know and accept that when my H was in the affair, he was saying the exact same things to the OW. He was telling her what a bad marriage he had, he would be leaving me soon, and he loved her and could not live without her.

The best thing we can all do is forget the past and deal with the present. I never expected the OW to consider me -- she was not married to me. I expected my H to consider my feelings and I held him solely responsible for not honouring his commitment.

All we can do at this point is decide what is best for our futures together and for our children's futures (the OC is my husband's child, just like mine are. She is also my children's half-sister.)

It is great to hear different points of view on MB, but I hope that everyone remembers it is not possible to transpose any one individual's ideas onto your own life -- each one of us has been tainted by our experiences (good or bad). And while some of us claim to have recovered marriages, you have no way of knowing whether one person's idea of recovered or happy is the same as yours.

Just my 2 cents and I am entitled to say it. Take what you need and leave the rest.

love,
heavenly

<small>[ November 30, 2003, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: heavenlybody26 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Children of affairs grow up knowing they were a mistake. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry, but the children from my A will not be growing up knowing they were a mistake. Instead they will grow up knowing that their parents love them. They will know unconditional love and are treated the same as the kids born from the marriage.

Pops

You stated that it isn't a one size fits all situation. I have said that over and over. All most of the people here want is what they believe to be law. We all need to agree to disagree and move on.

<small>[ November 30, 2003, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: Crazymum ]</small>

He will pay cs.....he helped make this child, but as far as being in her life.....oh well...it's his cross to bear, and if he CAN live with that than great.

Well, the "cross" of being an OC was made from sinful timber and constructed by two adulterous adults.

And, unfortunately, the OC will be the bearer of this cross.

You and MM did this to your child. Both of you. Not MM's wife, and not their children.

"His cross to bear" .... well, actually, I think this is a cross YOU and MM made for the innocent child to carry.

I realize this was not done with malace or intent to harm any child .... but was done with mutual weakness and self-deception. A serious lack of values and principles when the chips were down .... and I think that to raise this child alone can be done with good intentions as well .... but unless the adults who commited adultery embrace values and principles .... then this is the cross the children bear.

However, realize this, that when OW and MM, or MW an OM decide to commit adultery, they risk making a baby, and they just do not care who may or may not suffer consequences .... even an unborn baby. If you lie with dogs, don't complain about catching fleas.

If you choose a man based on his strong values and principles .... then this pain created by consenting adulterous "adults" would not be passed on to and carried by ....children....

Shame on the adults.


Pep

PS .... this post of mine is not about ANY one particular poster, but rather, a discussion about the philosophy behind many mistakes .... made by adults .... paid for by children.

<small>[ November 30, 2003, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Heavnly, thank you once again for reading WHAT I wrote instead of reading into what I wrote. You explained it excellent....once again.
Peper, you read into it. Yes it's his cross to bear. He slept with me as I slept with him. I'm not asking him to be apart of her life. Why would I want a man who has "prayed her death" apart of her life? But why should I bear all the responsiblity that it takes for her to grow up? We are both equally responsible for her exsistance. Bottom line. So I choice to keep her, and he does not want her, we all have to live with our actions and be responsible. I know I can give her a good home. I know I can teach her right from wrong. The mistake I made is over. It will never happen again. It was wrong. I can't take it back, but I'm not going to make another mistake to cover up the first mistake in order to make his or his wife's life easier and then me have to deal with the guilt and shame of doing something I can't do for selfish reasons. The only reason he wants her dead or gone is so he DOES not have to tell his wife, and face the music. Is that right Peper? Where does someone draw the line? The affair was wrong. For 13 months I made this mm first and his wants and needs. In the bs eyes that is wrong too......so keep on doing it? NOPE. Right is right and wrong and wrong. I prayed about what I should do (adoption or keep her) everything is leaning towards keeping her. And yes Pepper I've repented for my larger than life sin. I'm forgiven.

-------------------------
And, unfortunately, the OC will be the bearer of this cross.
-------------------------
this is exactly what i was talking about. it is NOT the oc cross to bear.

let me say this plain and simple. YOU MAY NOT LIKE THE WAY OC WAS CONCIEVED BUT THAT DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO CHASTISE OR BELITTLE OR BERATE THAT CHILD.

ANY ADULT that makes any attempt to hurt a child for any reason should seek help immediately. because THAT ADULT is IMHO lower then the worst ow/om or wh/ww.

for God's sake their CHILDREN. they should be nurtured and quided to hopefully someday be able to live WITHOUT hate, bigotry racist attitudes, etc, etc. THEY are OUR future. if they are slapped for something that they had absolutely NO control over then how are they going to grow up without bearing the beligerent cross laid on them by some small minded adults.

and as for c's of the marriage not wanting to be around the oc that's a load of c$@p. if that is so then they learned that attitude toward oc by some grown up that had no respect for their own c's. so little respect for their own c's that they taught them to hate indiscrimanately.

i can tell you that there are 11 children that all love grace because the adults involved were able to put their personal hurts aside in the interest of ALL the childen involved. not just the oc or the c's of the marriages. no it's not the best situation on earth but we are all looking out for more then ourselves.

<small>[ November 30, 2003, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

needtomoveon,
I am glad his wife will finally know the truth.

She deserves to know what her so-called husband has been doing behind her back.

After the truth is known, the two of them will decide what to do about it, what is best for them as a couple, or as a divided twosome.

Do not be surprised if they stay together.

Married love is far different from secret love.

Married love has family and friends to support it.

Married love has history, holidays, birthdays, christenings, shared together.

Married love does not seek secret locations or secret times to call.

Married love is open for all to know and see.

When the wife finds out in your situation it will be an awakening of sorts because I'm sure she has some indication of something being wrong at some point.

She will be shell-shocked for sure.

But if the XMM loves her, for sure he will bend over backwards for her, and help her pain be erased along with his own.

It's a sad situation for you.

It's equally sad for her. Mean or not. She does not deserve this.

So go for CS and do not expect much more if XMM said to abort....he meant it...his secret bubble has burst into an unwanted pregnancy.

I wish you peace and will pray for everyone involved.

Blessings.

love
Debi