i didn't want to hijack the "oc/father relationship" thread, so decided to start a new one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Actually, I said "giving up" the OC is a deal breaker. My W is pregnant by her OM. I am willing to try and make our M work, but I will not raise another mans child and I will not support her during the pregnancy. She can get an abortion, or go away til the baby is born and she can give it up for adoption. Either way, she has to choose, me or the baby. But, I cannot agree to raise that child. So, we cannot have mutual agreement on keeping the baby. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i'm not going to patronize you and say that i know you feel. all i know about your situation is the little bits that you've shared so far. i don't know how new the knowledge of your w's affair and pg are... i don't know if you two have other kids... how long you've been married... if om knows about the pg or not... etc, etc.

what i do know is what my h and i went through. just as your wife deciding to keep the baby is a "deal breaker" for you, had my h told me under no circumstance would he raise that child, it would've been an instant "deal breaker" for me.

please don't take this the wrong way. it's near impossible to know what "tone of voice" something is being written in, but in this case, i'm not trying to beat you over the head and i'm not wanting to be insensitive. like i said, i don't know much/anything about you or your life.

in the case of a bh and a ww who's pg with an oc, it is almost always the bh who has to make the choice to raise the oc or not. for the ww, it's not really a choice. it's a given.

that may be a double standard. that may not be fair. it may not be right. yet as unfair (and impossible) as it may seem to you right now, as the bh, you need to decide whether it's more important to be right or to be married.

if you post some more details, there are others here who are/have been in your shoes with regard to raising their ww's oc... pops and k are "oldies", ferruz is brand new here like you.

sorry to have to welcome you here...

amy

I do believe that the betrayed spouse has to have the freedom to choose what they are willing to accept and what they can't.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> in the case of a bh and a ww who's pg with an oc, it is almost always the bh who has to make the choice to raise the oc or not. for the ww, it's not really a choice. it's a given. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe you are incorrect. The WW does have the choice to give the child up for adoption. XRay has said he would be willing to work with that option.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...right now, as the bh, you need to decide whether it's more important to be right or to be married. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">While there was no OC involved, my wife had every right to end our marriage. It wasn't about being "right or being married." I think that bit of advice doesn't really apply to situations like these. The BS has to decide what they are willing to take. It's very condescending for the WS to judge whether they are right or wrong.

So I would think that it would be the WW who must decide if she "wants to be right or wants to be married." He has told her what he can live with.
If she can't, that's her choice.

As a former wayward spouse, I try to imagine myself in my wife's place. I'd like to think I could forgive her emotional or physical unfaithfulness. While I acknowledge that one doesn't know what they'll do until faced with it, I have trouble imagining that I could accept genetic infidelity.

The point is that it would be entirely my choice and my right to make it at that point. And no one else would have the right to judge me if I didn't choose to continue my marriage.

LO~

Could you please define "genetic infidelity"?

Thanks,

~aut

Amethyst,
I am 27, WW is 25. We have been married three years. No kids of our own.

I realize we all make mistakes. I am willing to work on the marriage and think I can get past her A.

But, I cannot and will not spend the rest of my life with a daily reminder of her infidelity. All I am asking is the same that many (admittedly not all) BW's ask....that the OC not be a part of our lives.

She can have an abortion, or give the OC up for adoption. But I cannot agree to have that child in my life.
Ray

Ray,
I can understand your pain. I understand your thought pattern, as I too felt that way.

Now, I have another thought pattern.

"That child" is no longer a constant reminder of the reminder of my FWH's infidelity, but Lil Bit is now a CONSTANT reminder of forgiveness and committment.

We didn't have children together when the A and resulting OC came into our lives. But now we have 2 children, Lil Bit(OC) and Baby Mac.

My heart is still very scarred from the effects of my H's A... but let me tell you one thing... Seeing my H pour out his love on my son is one of the most beautiful things to see.
To see the man you love cradle your child with love is the most beautiful thing to a woman.

Should your heart soften to having this child in your life... should you decide to raise him/her as your own... Would be a large step in forgiving your FWW and showing her what she means to you.

Search your heart and your soul, Ray... If you love your wife, don't throw away your marriage over an innocent child. If you love your wife then it it possible to love the child as well, as he/she is part of your wife.

And if the OM doesn't know about the pregnancy, then all the better. Accept the child as yours.. and if you raise him/her... it won't make one lick of difference about the DNA.

Prayers for you and your situation.

Originally posted by XRay:

She can have an abortion, or give the OC up for adoption. But I cannot agree to have that child in my life.
Ray

If she elects to carry the pregnancy to term, with plans to relinquish the babe for adoption after delivery, how will you feel about being around your wife watching her belly grow?

Pep

First of all, being right does not equal having to accept and raise this child. That seems to hold a judgmental view of the BH here. Seems to say that if he can't raise the OC he is wrong.

This man has feelings and they count. This is his marriage too, his life, his future, not just his wife's. If he has told her that and she is not willing to discuss this, then they both have different needs. He has a right to not accept or want the other mans child. That does not make him wrong. I applaud his honesty here, he did not create this situation and has a right to his own feelings. This is the real world, not some Fairytale.

Xray, you are not wrong. You feel that way, and that is right for you. I find this situation very difficult. If you two can't come to an agreement that you both accept, 100%, I guess the marriage would be over. You have stated what you want, what you need. Don't ever be ashamed of that. You should not have to lower your moral expectations. Stand tall and if you stay true to yourself, you will be fine. Don't let others, WW or anyone to force you into a situation that you will regret later.

What has she said about abortion, adoption, etc?

Is she adament on keeping this child? With absolutely no regard to how you feel? Consider that while you are mulling this over. It will be hard enough to rebuild any type of trust in the firstplace, but with her obvious disregard to your feelings, it will be impossible. Love does not equal trust.

You should speak to an attorney right now and if you think you are headed for divorce. You can take steps to assure an equitable distribution of the assets. For example, is she using joint funds for another mans child? You could have that deducted from her share of the equity. Stuff like that. Plus it would be in your best interest to get out the divorce before the baby is born so you are not somehow trapped into a financial mess with this. You would be surprised at how quickly you could be held financially accountable here. Is your wife on your insurance? Are you paying a premium for a family plan just to include her? If this child is born while married, she can put you on the birth certificate and then she can sue you for child support. Your paying for insurace could be construed as acceptance and the state possibly could say you "accepted" the child, and were willing to pay, and then hold you accoutable. BE CAREFULL. You could fight it, but it could turn into quite a mess. The fees upfront are far cheaper then it will be to force the OM into a DNA test. He probably is hoping that you will raise OC too. He probably would refuse a DNA and if she put your name on the BC, you will have a hard time not paying for his child. Speak to an attorney.

I get slammed on a regular basis by a couple of OW/OW supporters here. They hate to see anyone empower themselves in this situation. They want everything to revolve around the OC and expect everyone to accept, love and pay for the OC. They will tell you how innocent OC is, etc. Not once showing any concern for your feelings or the rights you will have in this situation. They hate the fact that a BW can sue for CS before them to secure family funds. They consider this wrong and now the BW are stealing from the OC. They get wound up when legal means are used keep family funds from leaving the family. They consider it unfair, etc. What they do not like is that it is legal. They do not want others to go and protect assets. They call it wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
I call it self preservation. You need to protect your future, expecially right now.

So you get thee to an attorney and explain the situation so that IF your marriage does not survive, you are not stuck paying for another mans child. You can start protecting assets right now, today. Then you can try again to work it out with her. Maybe she will do the "right" thing and abort, (see how wrong that is for others to say what is right or not? Thats what I think she should do, but it is wrong for me to say she is wrong for not doing it), or give up for adoption, or you may even decide to raise oc afterall. If the marriage fails, you will have set in motion a legal way out that doesn't bury you later in a legal mess.

Don't ever feel guilty for your feelings. Own them and stand tall. This is her mess, and if she can't look past herself, consider and respect you, then you need to take care of yourself and your future, and that includes your financial future. It is an ugly truth to the real world. But grab your power back.

Don't be duped until it is to late. You need to be aware of all that is going on here.

If your marriage works out, and you choose to keep oc, then no harm done. But it would have been great insurance just in case.

<small>[ December 09, 2003, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: LynnG ]</small>

Ray - While I respect your feelings and views on this problem, I cannot support abortion (murder) as an option. If you think destroying this child is a solution for your anger then you are seriously mistaken. As a minister-in-training and a police chaplain, I have counseled women and men who felt abortion was the correct option, only to later suffer extreme guilt and condemnation. Even though they may later stand before God and repent of this they still have emotional and spiritual scars. Rightfully so, as abortion is a heinous act and the ultimate act of selfishness.

On the other hand, I have never counseled anyone who regretted keeping the child or putting it up for adoption to a loving couple. Your attorney, or any adoption agency, can plug you into a family who will pay all expenses and offer you much needed support during the pregnancy. Many churches also have crisis pregnancy outreaches.

Lynn - Sorry for your pain but you should understand the baby is completely innocent. The child deserves every right to life that you and I received. The child is the only innocent one here and to murder it will only serve to add more hurt to their situation. Your advice to abort may have been well-intended but is way off base.

The baby is always completely innocent. But this man did not want, or even create this child. He owes this child nothing. It is not even his.

Abortion...some are for, some against. Arguments have been made for years. That is a personal choice.

This man is innocent too. His feelings count, they matter as does he. He has a right to be angry and hurt. He has a right to say what he will or will not accept into his life. He has a right to say that he does not want this child. He has been hurt and he deserves compassion, empathy and support. This is not just about the OC.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stacia_Lee

Now, I have another thought pattern.

"That child" is no longer a constant reminder of the reminder of my FWH's infidelity, but Lil Bit is now a CONSTANT reminder of forgiveness and committment.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you Stacia, for saying what I really want to say sometimes in this forum, but don't because I believe it wouldn't carry any weight, considering...

What we see when we look at the OC is a CHOICE. If forgiveness has truly been achieved, it is difficult to see the OC in any other light.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you love your wife, don't throw away your marriage over an innocent child. If you love your wife then it is possible to love the child, as he/she is part of your wife. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H said the exact words that I put in bold when explaining to me how he was able to get past my A, find forgiveness, and truly love the OC.

XRay~

I hope you will be able to find answers soon. This is such a painful thing to be going through, and especially at such a young age. It will likely be thee most painful thing you will ever experience. The MB concepts found on this site are very valuable in helping you to come to decisions. As far as the decision making process between you and your wife, look up POJA, (policy of joint agreement). Also, the book "Surviving An Affair", (which you can order from the bookstore here, or from just about anywhere), will help you tremendously. I know too, that somewhere Harley advises young couples who don't have any children of their own, that divorce may be the more viable option. I'm sure I'm not saying that totally correctly, but I do recall the jist of it.

I may have missed it somewhere, did your W say yet what she is willing to do?

Take good care.

~autumnday

XRay,
while I believe abortion is an individual choice, I would ask you to consider this option long and hard. I could not do it with a child of my own, or even with a child that who was, through no fault of my own, wrapped up in my life. Even if you choose not to participate in the life of the OC, there are other options. One is adoption. There are many, many, loving and deserving parents who would provide a wonderful home for the OC. The second option is let the OM have the OC, with your WW paying CS. Fair is fair. He conceived the OC, let him raise him/her. Many here will tell you if the OM does not know, don't tell him. I disagree. I believe he has a right to know he has child on the way, and be given the opportunity to accept responsibility. But, please, think about what I said. There are other options to abortion.
Michael

Xray, welcome under duress. I am sorry you are hurting so.

I agree with getting legal advice at this point.

I wanted to comment on one of your statements, "...BW's ask...that the OC not be a part of our lives."

The only reason for NC with my H's 2 OC's, is because of OW. If OW was not in their lives, and OC's were up for adoption, no problem. I could have raised them as my own. Unfortunately, most of us BS never have that opportunity, as most OW keep their children. Therefore, any contact with OC will always involve OW. It's not the OC, it is the OW that threatens the marriage. In your case, the OM.

Your position is not the same as a BW. You would never have to have contact with OM, ever.

The OC is innocent. This "reminder" could be the sunshine of your life.

In your case, you never have to have contact with OM, if you choose to raise OC as your own.

Would OM be willing to keep his child, with no contact, with you or your wife?

As a mother, I find the maternal instinct very strong.

If your love your wife give counseling a chance.

ember

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by XRay:
<strong>Amethyst...I am willing to work on the marriage and think I can get past her A.

But, I cannot and will not spend the rest of my life with a daily reminder of her infidelity. All I am asking is the same that many (admittedly not all) BW's ask....that the OC not be a part of our lives...
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi XRay,
Something jumped at me when I read the part where you said you will not spend the rest of your life with a daily reminder of her infidelity... I tend to think that the OC is not the only thing that will remind you of your WS's infidelity. Unfortunately, there are triggers that may possibly haunt you for a lifetime, even after any potential kids are gone from the nest. Learning how to manage those triggers will be your biggest task, perhaps?

Of course, a child's presence would definitely be a visible reminder, but don't rule out the little triggers--for example, when your WS is dishonest or you discover another fact that was left out of the story or a song or a time of year or an event. Sometimes BS's get moody and don't know why until they realize what's going on--a trigger.

I agree that OM should be removed from your lives permanently, even if it means changing jobs or moving away. Dr.Harley recommends that so getting the affair and the OP out of the married couple's life is a definite first step toward recovery.

Good luck with the triggers tho. I'm sure you can find help and support from other BS's here.

Genetic Infidelity...

I see it as a married person uniting their DNA with someone other that their spouse (either by choice or by error) as the result of an affair. I was looking for a less volatile term than "cuckold."

For men, I think this is a significant issue, more so than women because women can always be positive that the child they carry is their child. We men can never really be sure that the child you carry is really ours, can we? We take it as a matter of trust.

I've noticed that women on this board would have a much easier time accepting an OC as long as the OW was not connected in any way. I think men more often see themselves as being "robbed" of their genetic legacy. I do applaud those men who have the heart to accept the child and raise it as their own. It goes against human nature, so I would categorize the ability of a man to do that as "supernatural." God bless them. But not every man could do it. I'm not sure that I could.

Low

Xray,

You might want to explore what the Harley's say about your situation:

What To Do When Spouse Pregnant with Lover's Child

Divorce is appropriate in some situations. Read this article carefully. Then, I think you should call Steve ASAP. In any event he recommends that you apply the policy of joint agreement to your decisions. You can read more about it under the "Basic Concepts" link in the title graphic.

Low

<small>[ December 09, 2003, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

wow, lots of advice, but that's what I came here for. I have been surprised at how few support my position though.

Let me try to address a few things.
1. OM knows about pregnancy, so keeping a secret is not an option. Doesn't matter if he did not know, I would not raise his child.

2. Dirtbag that he is, OM said he wants no part of OC.

3. She has not responded to my conditions. She has always been pro-choice, but previously it was a purely academic discussion.

4. To the person who asked how I would feel during the pregnancy if she was going to give up OC for adoption.....I won't deal with it. Either she goes away for the duration, or I do, but I will not sit around and watch another man's child growing in my wife's belly.

5. I had not thought about the legal implications, and will be getting a lawyer ASAP.

6. I accept that there will be other things that remind me of the A, but from my reading here and other places they will fade with time.

7. I never thought I would put up with an A, and am surprised I find I am willing to try to look past that.

8. My position is non-negotiable. His baby, or her husband.

9. If she chooses the OC over me, so be it, it was not meant to be. I am too young to be living my life with this situation.


To LynnG,
thank you for understanding I am the one who was betrayed and that my feelings do matter.
Ray

<small>[ December 09, 2003, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: XRay ]</small>

Xray,

As a husband who is currently about to give his 5 year old OC a bath---I can completely understand your situation. I would encourage you to consult a lawyer for this situation, because the child will be considered 'yours' until you prove otherwise (by dna testing).

If you are serious about wanting to attempt to salvage the marriage, then I would encourage you to make an appointment with Steve Harley for phone counseling (888-639-1639). Steve is terrific, and he coached me through my wife's affair and resulting pregnancy; and I give him a lot of credit for helping me get through this process with my marriage intact.

What Steve would probably do with you is to work towards a POJA decision with your wife regarding the marriage. You can obviously not entertain the thought of raising this child (and seeing as you have none with your wife, it's completely understandable). If you and your wife cannot POJA a suitable solution to the pregnancy, then I would suggest that you attempt to POJA a divorce (is it the "best" solution that you both can agree with)? If it's not, and you are stuck---Steve will help you manage the situation (Plan A, Plan B) in the best way that saves your love for your wire, until she's ready to deal with the situation in a way that you can deal with.

I'm sorry that you're facing this situation. Call Steve---you'll find that he's a terrific coach and he will not throw any options out for you, but he will do his best to fight for your marriage.

And as an aside, condition 8

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">8. My position is non-negotiable.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">comes across as a selfish demand. A better phrase would be that you cannot imagine any situation that you would be enthusiastic about that includes this child in your future. You need to learn how to phrase yourself so that you don't kill any love your wife has for you. Being thoughtful and inflexible is much better than just being inflexible... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong> And as an aside, condition 8

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">8. My position is non-negotiable.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">comes across as a selfish demand. A better phrase would be that you cannot imagine any situation that you would be enthusiastic about that includes this child in your future. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">K,
excellent point. So let me revise and I wanted to add another.

8. I cannot imagine in anyway a situation where I would agree to let this child be in my future.

9. I understand the OC is innocent. But so am I. As someone else said, there are families who would love the opportunity to raise this child. I say let them have it.

Ray,

i really do feel for you being in this position. Its hard as hell. You say that you will not accept OC. So your wife has the option of abortions or giving it up for adoption. Lets just say she does one of the two and you guys go on with her life. You will always hold the A against her, but jus thtink if she's going to hold it against you for having to get rid of her child??

Please do look into the leagal part of it. under the law since you are married this child is already legally considered yours. Check with a lawyer on what your rights are.

If she has the baby, OM will have no legal rights unless you sign off on the baby and she goes after him for child support.

Another option since you two have no children together is a divorce. In my opinion this a no win situation. Everyone involved is going to suffer.