I was in your shoes buddy, found out about affair same week as ex-wife's pregnancy. Only difference is that there was a paternity question. I'm 6 months from d-day, 3 months post divorce.

I disagree with your father, file for divorce NOW! However, do see a counselor. I had two sessions that helped a lot even though he wouldn't prescribe antideps (or morphine for that matter, lol).

Look, there is absolutely nothing ambiguous in the message your wife is sending you. She is making it perfectly clear what kind of woman she is and what your role is going to be in her life.

Some things to consider from my experience:
-Forget about what your family is telling you about standing by you if you stay with her. This is not the same as step or adopted kids. My family said the same thing, but would then say things like 'time to change my will'.
-You don't have the luxury of time. Once that kid is born judges can pretty much do whatever they want as far as paternity goes.
-If you decide to divorce there's no need to see or speak to her again. Don't underestimate the trauma you're going through.
-Come up with a plan, both short and long term and keep yourself busy. Exercise. Improve yourself.
-You WILL get over it in time.

Good luck

Xray,

To reiterate what TMCM has stated, you haven't been the fool. You've just been deceived.

I like your Dad's advice. The bottom line is that your wife is behaving just like every other wayward spouse on the planet. She's been caught in an affair. It's probably in the process of ending. She still suffers from the distorted reality of the affair---Harley likens affairs to chemical substance addiction, and it's a very apt analogy. Your wife is still going through withdrawal (and she appears to be in the early stages, by what you write). It will take her time to get through this completely. And afterwards, you (both) would need to take "extraordinary precautions" to guarantee that the affair doesn't start again.

Based on your situation, I'd give you a 75% chance in recovering your marriage, if you immdediately got into counseling with the Harley's (or someone similar). But---that's not taking your wife's pregnancy into account. It's a shame that has happened, because it limits your options and compresses your timeframe to the point where it's going to take a bigger miracle for your marriage to be recovered.

I would urge you to listen to your dad's advice here and go into counseling, if only for a few sessions. You can continue the divorce process (I see no reason to slow it down). But for your sake, I think you would be best suited to do both. The cost is insignificant in relationship to the big picture here.

Also agree with TMCM's observations...

There is no rush to react to your emotions at this time. Do what you need to do to get through the holidays and try to count your blessings...

I mean, what IF you guys had other children in the picture? Then it would be even more difficult to sort through your feelings...

for the record, my Dad has recommended I get counseling, not that my WW and I get MC.

At this point, I tend to agree with Lurking, time to get out.

I have a meeting with my lawyer later this week to discuss the legal ramifications. I do not want to be responsible for this kid.
Ray

Xray,

No offense intended (well, maybe a little), but one of the worse things you can do is to "follow your instincts" when you discover that your spouse is having an affair. I don't know anything about Lurking's history (seeing that he only has three posts), but I will suggest to you that based on my several years of service here, and my time spent counseling with the Harley's, you would be well-served with going to "counseling" with Steve for a short period of time.

This advice of mine is based on the state you arrived in here (still in "love" with your wife), the time you've known about the affair, and the very predictible emotional cycles you've been going through. Not only does the wayward spouse's affair appear in a "script", but the betrayed spouse's responses also tend to fall into specific patterns. I'm encouraging you to break out of this and spend a few weeks working through this, so that you will have fewer regrets in the long run.

This isn't to beat up on you, or to drum up business for Steve. It's for your own best interests. This is your first time in dealing with something like this---I've dealt with the same issues successfully, and also helped dozens of others through it as well. I hope you take this advice to heart.

K
thank's for your concern. I am going to go to IC, but I don't like the idea of phone counseling, so will find someone here.

There really is not much to talk about regarding M. I will not accept the OC. Period. End of discussion. So unless WW agree's to give it up, there is no point.

I know people here are spring loaded to save a M, and that's great. But not all M's are meant to be, and some betrayals are too much to overcome.

I have not turned away from the possibility of recovery. But, it has to be just the two of us...not us and OM's kid. I can't do that.
Ray

Xray,

Can't help you with the phone counseling (unless you try it...). Having done both, I find that I prefer the phone counseling because it's more convenient and I'm less distracted than being in an office.

Let me try to help you understand what I'm getting at here. First off, the counseling I was referring to (with Steve) would be Individual---I counseled with him for 8 months or so with very little involvement from my wife. The counseling is to help you come to a conclusion regarding your marriage, as well as to help you with behavioral skills for a future relationship.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will not accept the OC. Period. End of discussion.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't have an issue with this at all. Neither would Steve.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know people here are spring loaded to save a M, and that's great. But not all M's are meant to be, and some betrayals are too much to overcome.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed. However, it's still pretty early from where you are in the process, and I think you would benefit from someone skilled in this area to help you figure out if this is really been too much to overcome. And I would do this work with someone who is pro-marriage: your typical counselor would see you in pain, and encourage you to avoid it by relieving yourself of the situation (the marriage). That's not always the best policy for personal growth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So unless WW agree's to give it up, there is no point. I have not turned away from the possibility of recovery. But, it has to be just the two of us...not us and OM's kid. I can't do that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And this is why I'm "wasting" my time posting to you. I don't think you're completely done here. But you have very rigorous requirements that your wife needs to meet in order for you to consider recovery. This is where getting Steve involved would be a benefit (in first counseling with you, and then discussing this situation with your wife)---he is an expert in handling these types of "negotiations" and would be able to give you some feel for whether a recovery would be possible. Because I know very little of your marital past, I'm going to hazard a guess that Steve would have a better chance of getting your wife to listen to your position and thoughtfully consider it rather than having you present it. It's my feeling that based on this last statement, you'd be better off in the hands of a good counselor who is pro-marriage and experienced in dealing with infidelity. The Harley's are among the best.

Again, I have no problems with your stance on these issues, or your desire to move forward with a divorce (on the legal end). But for you to come out of this in the best shape possible, I think you need to:

1. Fully explore the avenues available for reconcilliation

2. Understand what role you may have played in putting your marriage in this situation

3. Address any issues with regard to #2 with a behavioral plan that will help you correct (grow), and become a better husband.

Whether this happens in this marriage, or down the line in another relationship---you're best served by working through this process as thoroughly as possible.

(I'll stop beating up on you now... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

<small>[ December 22, 2003, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: K ]</small>

xray, you are young man with his whole life ahead of him. I think you would be better off to end the marriage and move on with your life.

I am trying to think how I would feel if this were happening to me. I would always feel that my spouse was tainted by bearing somebody elses child. Even if she gives it up for adoption, there will be triggers in your future. If/when you have your own child, you will always have thoughts in the back of your mind that this isn't something new for her. Even the medical history will reflect that this is not her first pregnancy as the doctor writes notes, and then he'll ask what happened with the first pregancy whether it went to term and was it a live birth etc. You will have to face all of that in, what should be, a very special time. But it won't be special.

You will have to tell the truth or laugh off comments from friends and relatives about how the baby looks like you or doesn't look like you (if she were not to give it up for adoption). So you'll either have to tell the story again, or be triggered about why the baby can bear no resemblance to you whatsoever.

What if the baby is not born healthy? What if your wife were to pass away when the child was very young, leaving you to raise a child that is not even yours?

At such a young age, unless you think you have an extraordinary relationship to save, I would let her go and live with her choices while you move on to create the life you WERE planning.

Please bear in mind, this site is fantastic. Its positive, pro-marriage. However, I do think people tend to abuse plan A/B and make it into something it isn't.

I have a good idea what x-ray's dealing with. His situation is one that REQUIRES cynical appraisal. He does NOT have time to figure out his feelings.

Look, his wife has maneuvered him into about the worst possible position. Does anyone really think OM will be out of the picture after she has his child?

IMO a woman of character would have terminated the pregnancy, confessed the affair, and then would have wanted to work on marriage. Everyone makes mistakes, but this is a whopper of a mistake. She will NOT give the kid up for adoption. If she were to terminate the pregnancy at this point, she'll blame you and never forgive you for it. Then you'll have a whole new set of problems/issues and possibly addiction issues in the future. You may as well have that swishy mars/venus guy move in and sleep on the sofa.

She's put you in a lose/lose situation. My best advice is to act decisively, that's the luxury of not having kids to worry about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> IMO a woman of character would have terminated the pregnancy, confessed the affair, and then would have wanted to work on marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMO, she doesn't have to terminate the P to be a woman of character, maybe even the opposite.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lurking24:
<strong>IMO a woman of character would have terminated the pregnancy, confessed the affair, and then would have wanted to work on marriage. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would not go that far. I will say a woman of character would not have cheated in the first place. However, they are where they are. I think a woman of character would recognize that she has put Ray in a no win situation, and would gracefully bow out and let him move on with his life.
Michael

XRay, well, I think divorcing her, immediately is the right thing to do. She has made her position perfectly clear. I also believe that it will keep you from ever being financially liable for her child. I really feel for you. I just hate to see people in pain and confusion. But I believe you getting out is the right thing for you at this time. Trust me, you are not the fool. She is. She is a fool for believing in any future with that other man. She is a fool to get pregnant in this century with all the birth control available. She is a fool to throw away a good husband and marriage. You were deceived by her and lied to. That does not make you a fool at all.


Autumn, I didn't realize all that. You know, I went into a denial for a long time after I learned of OC. First I was literally shocked and angry about the affair. Filed for divorce, tossed him out. The standard issue rage, fury hurt of the betrayed wife. Then some how, we got back together, all was well on the outside. But I was in denial. I actually forgot that oc was on the way, etc. I don't mean literally, I mean I was able to sort of put it in some place where I didn't think about it. Then, one day it sorta blew up. And this was a long time after affair, reconciliation, birth of oc, etc. I mean years after oc was born. I blew. I went into a rage an anger that scared even myself. I hated my husband. I hated everything. I was hurting terribly and really depressed. I went to counseling and learned that we had buried this issue. I was pretending it didn't happen. I was in total denial of all that had transpired. This is not something I choose to do, it was my mind protecting me. Then, it came out. It through us back to day one. Near divorce. It took a long time to get past this. Counselor said I had Post Traumatic Stress Disorde. It was a nightmare. My husband, who had thought we had cleared the affair mess was totally and completely shocked. He couldn't understand why now, why all the anger, etc. It was like he so badly wanted to move on, forget, put it in the past, etc. so we hid it. Pretended. After the affair, the resulting oc, the legal procedures, all of which we handled as a team, he thought we were in the clear. What he didn't realize, and obviously neither did I, is that we never openly dealt with the affair etc. It all came flooding out. He finally saw what the real damage was. He finally saw the real pain. He learned that while I would heal, that I would always have the scar. It was not a pretty time. So when I speak of denial and all, it is coming from what we went through. I know not everyone will or has gone through that. God I pray not. But when we hide things, intentionally, or on purpose, they eventually come bubbling to the surface and look out. Maybe having message boards helps people vent off their anger. Understand more what has happened, etc. Who knows, maybe had there been an internet when I was in those early days, I would have done things differently? I'll never know. All I know is that when I speak of denial it is from personal experience. It was not a pleasant experince at all. Just my thoughts,

and as Paul Harvey said......"good day!!!"

Happy Holidays.

I hope that people recall that the only real time issue is due to Xray encouraging an abortion. If his W has already decided on NOT having one, then HE is not pressed for time and would be well advised to consider K's advice to sort through things NOW.

With regard to this issue, I am an interloper, however it is the issue that finally got me posting here 4.5 years ago. I am bothered by what I see as harsh judgements concerning his W. Or perhaps generalizations.

I don't think anyone would argue that this is a male's worst nightmare. However, this nightmare is very complex and depends a great deal on the attitude of the pregnant W and how she treats and addresses her H. It also depends somewhat on the family situation (previous children or not), but I have seen more than a few couples come through here who had no previous children and the H decided to stay. Apparently the W was able to persuade him that HE was the focus of her life along with the child.

I will also concede that Dr. Harley himself suggests that it is often better if the H leaves and lets the W and OM raise THEIR child. However, THEIR child is an interesting thing. Because while women KNOW the child is their's men do not, and until DNA testing came along and surely before blood typing men often had no idea if the child was theirs. However, if the male was a good father, the child became his.

I had an occasion to talk to a fellow yesterday, who I have known for 20 years. He has never had children and never married. His girl friend for a few years has 3 children. They broke up about 3 years ago. She just left town with her new boyfriend leaving her two remaining teenagers(13,16) with no family. This fellow is taking care of them this Christmas because they have no where to go, and frankly he has been more of a father to them even after he and their mother broke up than she has been their mother. He gives them a place to stay. He feeds them. He takes them to the doctor, yes he has the medical insurance cards for each one, because Mom cannot be bothered. He has moved three times since the breakup and usually 1 or more of them move in with him to stay. He has essentially raised all three of the children for the last 9 nears.

Is he the father? Is she a mother?

Folks, I think xray is on the path he chooses, and probably the right path given his W's inability to get old BF/OM out of her life. However, if she really decided to do that, and she really wanted to try with xray, would your assessment of her be so harsh? Should it be so harsh?

As much as I feel sorry for xray, I PITY his W. Folks it takes more than biology to be a mother or a father. It takes more than one mistake to brand someone immoral. It takes more than one good act to be branded as good. It takes a lifetime of living to be evaluated as to who and how you are.

xray and his W are in a very very difficult situation. Neither of them know how to handle it. They will survive it, but the question remains will they LEARN from it. K's suggestion and the suggestion of others is that xray go slowly and learn as much as he can from this situation, so that it won't harm him in the future. There is more here to worry about than CS payments. There is xray's future relationships with women, his future family, his future children.

I know many here are frustrated at yet ANOTHER case of adultery leading to an unexpected/unwanted child, but frustration won't help either party. Folks, the issue is about learning. The decisions come whether we want them or not. The decisions ultimately get made for us IF we will look at all of the data.

It is the learning and healing that is the issue that xray should be focusing on. Hence K's suggestion that he call Steve Harley. Xray, needs to make sure that when this is done, his head is screwed on straight for surely his W has been messing with it for a long time.

I do hope that someone finds this post of value.

God Bless,

JL

Just learning,
I don't think it is the intent of anyone to make a harsh judgement on Xrays wife. The fact is, she is not the one posting here. Posters here on the forum tend to take in the person with a problem, whether it's a WS or BS. We tend to look out for that persons interests, and in the process, the other partner sometimes is judged unfairly. Often, we also are left to give advice, make judgements, read the situation based on one set of facts. It would be interesting in this case to hear the point of view of the WS. Maybe she is repentent and wants her marriage.

So here we are with Xrays situation as he see's it. For some of us that's enough. Even Harley would agree that it may be in his best interest to move on. That does not mean we think Xray cannot save his marriage or that his wife is no longer worthy of him. It is a simple recognition of the odds. And the odds of any marriage making it these days is 50-50. Add in the baggage that Xrays marriage would be carrying in addition to the difficulties any marriage would face, and I think the most reasonable advice to give Xray is for him to get a divorce and start fresh.

Now, that does not mean Xray gets a free pass. He does need IC, and he does need to examine what happened here and how to learn from it in the future.
Michael

XRay, I'm going to hit you hard with an MB 2x4. Lots of people may think this is unwarranted, but ... I think you need it.

*****edited****Justuss**

Your wife is in deep doodoo here and you're freaking out. Okay, I get that.

BUT.

Let's go back to the WIFE thing for a minute.

If you're like most people in this country, you took vows before God and everybody.

Those vows went something along the lines of "for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part."

So now you're saying it's too hard?

TOO FRICKING BAD.

Think about this for a minute. Yes, you're young. And you're acting like it, which I mean in the kindest possible way.

What if this is the ONLY CHANCE you ever get to raise any child?

What if this is the ONLY WIFE you ever get to have?

The anger and defensiveness that I hear in you goes something like this: "I can't I can't I can't I can't I WON'T AND YOU CAN'T MAKE ME."

Well, what I have to say is this. "Oh, really? What would it take for you to be enthusiastic about raising this child?"

Or let's take a little bit easier thing. "What would it take to have you wait to make any more grand, line-in-the-sand statements until after you've had six months or so to calm down?"

Ok, I'm done with the 2x4 now. If you're still reading, I appreciate it and I'm going to take it to a different level now. It might not work in one post, and if it doesn't, I do apologize. But there's another side here, too.

And what is it that you're so freaked out about anyway? I have this real sense that it's not about the OM, the OC, and whether this guy was her boyfriend or not.

I suspect that you're terribly, terribly hurt, Ray, so I'm going to ask this. Have you cried about this yet? Have you sat down and cried the way only an adult man can, with all the pain coming to the fore and you accepting that you hurt like you never thought you could? Your wife betrayed you in a way you never expected. And no matter what, your life is never, ever going to be the same as you wanted it to be. Hon, that's a pile of hurt that no one should have to deal with. And yet, lots of people do, and live through it, and they're better people afterwards.

I want you to go find a baby, Ray. Doesn't matter whose it is. Just make sure it's a young baby, three months old or so. And I want you to hold that baby for an hour while she's asleep, and I want you to smell the scent of her hair. And then I want you to cry and cry, Ray, because this IS a tragedy. For you, for OM, for your wife, and for the child who's at the center of the bad decisions that adults all around her have made.

Can you be the one to make a good decision for that child who's not even born yet? What would it take for you to become this child's advocate, this child's protector, this child's strength and support system? What would it take?

<small>[ December 23, 2003, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

And I have one more thing to say, because it's the day before Christmas Eve.

Jesus was an illegitimate child raised by a man who was not his father. That seemed to turn out okay in the end.

I think it is wrong to compare the situation of Our Savior to an illicit affair.

Ray needs support, he does not have to feel guilty about not wanting OM's child. It is now his wife's decision. Adoption is always another way out.

Holding a strange baby does nothing, only in your dreams. Rays feelings do count, and who are you to judge?

ember

ember,
I totally agree....I hold babies in my office a lot of days and feel nothing more for them than being a temporary baby sitter..... Gosh if we all felt love for strange infants trouble would surely follow..

Immaculate Conception is a far cry from adultry/pregnancy.

But the Lord must have his reasons.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Debi

I'd suggest that you read the Gospel of Luke and the thought process Joseph went through. There are some distinct similarities.

And while folks who hold babies every day probably are a little inured to it, it sounds to me like Ray is not all that familiar with the general charms of babies. I would prefer, in all honesty, that he wait to make this decision until he holds THIS baby in his arms, after having supported his wife through pregnancy and labor. Because it's THIS baby that he's got to be thinking about.

But even another baby may help him understand more about what his choices are.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just J:
<strong> I would prefer, in all honesty, that he wait to make this decision until he holds THIS baby in his arms, after having supported his wife through pregnancy and labor. Because it's THIS baby that he's got to be thinking about.

But even another baby may help him understand more about what his choices are. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you insane? The whole problem Xray is facing is that once he could hold this baby in his arms, it's pretty much too late. From what others have said, once a baby is born, in most states, it is legally the child of the husband in a marriage. Now what? Suppose he holds this baby in his arms and still cannot do it? Now he is stuck with CS payments for the next 18 years for a child who is not his. Sorry, but that is just bad advice.
Michael
PS since you want to bring religion into this, even the bible says you can get a divorce if there is adultery.