****edited*** by Justuss


Merry Christmas to you and yours <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ December 22, 2003, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Tony46:
<strong> I also wanted to clarify I don't plan on droping into the child's life when its convenient for me. I don't plan to make contact at all. I also don't think I have the heart to reject her should she come looking for answers.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony

Thanks so much for making your presence known! I was thinking you were a phantom or a plant...I am so glad you are not.

You sound like you are very troubled with your struggle/decision as to whether or not to incorporate contact. Your deference to your wife's wishes is heartening.

The best way to come to a decision is to let the emotions subside and to not make a decision right away. Give this a little time to get over the shock of it all and let your wife get used to the alterations in your lives. The Harley Principles can give you a lot of insight in how to approach this subject in the Policy for Joint Agreement, Rules of Radical Honesty, Rules of Protection and then perhaps a counseling session or two with Steve Harley himself. Sometimes, from what I have heard, just a couple counseling sessions with Fearless Leader can put everything into perspective to fascilitate a better decision making process that works best for all involved.

It might be too soon to make any lasting decisions...before you make any decisions, read everything you can and learn the principles of rebuilding your marriage first.

Good luck...glad you are you and you are here. Despite your baptism by fire (mistaken identity), you have come to the right place. Don't the paranoia scare you off...we are all anonymous.

Catnip =^^=

tony...I would hope that you and your wife are able to rebuild a strong relationship. If your OC was just born I am sure you have years before she could contact you. In my opinion I feel every child deserves truthful answers if they are asking the questions. Depending on the age of the child...so it would be age appropriate. I would hope any person that had a child (be it a sperm donor, birth mom, etc)would at least give a child a couple of hours to answer some questions so they could go on with their life knowing the answers. In my opinion we owe a child at least that. Doesn't mean that you have to open yourself up for a relationship. If we opened our hearts as if it was someone we loved asking the question...like our mom or sister. We would want them to have someone treat them with respect, kindness, and truthfullness. The OC didn't bring any of this hurt on you personally...and should be treated as such. That is just my opinion.

I'M WRITTING TO TELL MY STORY. I FOUND OUT 6-MONTHS AGO, MY HUSBAND WAS SLEEPING WITH ANOTHER WOMEN, AND SHE HAD HIS BABY. HE DIDN'T TELL ME, I FOUND OUT THROUGH THE MAIL FROM COURT PAPERS. MY HUSBAND WANTS TO WORK ON OUR MARRIAGE, BUT WANTS TO HAVE CONTACT WITH HIS BABY. THAT MEANS THAT THE OTHER WOMEN WILL BE IN OUR LIFES FOR GOOD. I HAVE MIXED FEELINGS, IT'S NOT THE BABYS FAULT, BUT, HOW DO I VISIT THE BABY AND NOT BE REMINDED OF HOW SHE GOT HERE? THE OTHER WOMEN HAS TAKEN US TO COURT TWO TIMES FOR MORE MONEY. PLEASE HELP ME MAKE IT THROUGH THE VISITS. THANKS FOR CARING,

Tony,

you do realize that if you do sign away your parental rights, no matter what happens in the future (even if it is divorce), you can never get those rights back. Which effectively means, no legal rights to visitation or custody or any decision making ability in your child's life.

If something were to happen to the OW, the child would not be yours, but rather an orphan. You, by signing the papers, are no longer sonsidered her father. How will you explain that decision to her?

In my mind there is a huge difference between no contact (child abandonment) and going out of your way to legally say you want no part of this child. Unless there is another man int he picture to adopt your child and be a true parent, why are you rushing to break legal ties? Are you trying to get out of paying support? If you are, I can assure you, a judge will not let you terminate rights purely to not be financially responsible to the child. I don't know about your state, but in some places the Mother has to agree to your voluntary termination of rights and so does the judge.

I agree with the poster who said don't make any long-term decisions right away. You never know how you will feel in a year from now. I'm sure you can still legally abandon your child at a later date if you want to.

dear saved by faith

I guess we all have mixed feelings about whether n/c is best for everyone, but we have to think of the oc and how we would feel if our parents had decided to have n/c with us. each situation is different. my huband thought it may be better not to have contact with the oc because the ow was so bitter and continued to play games with him. she said that she never wanted the child to come to our house because i would be reminded of the affair and might hurt her child. then when he agreed not to have contact she took him to court for child support(which he was paying anyway)then we he wanted the money to come directly from his check she didn't want that. she said the child could visit, but only when I was at work(acourse that didn't work) she has convinced the court that she lives in another state and my husband has visits three times a year. she has never moved and lives less than a mile from our home. i saw her at the store one day and two later she filed for more child support using a local address. I think my husband is getting worn down. It has been 8 months since he has saw the oc. some days i want to just walk away, but we have children together and i go still love my husband.

Saved by Faith

We would like to help but need to know more about you on your own thread so we don't keep hijacking Tony's thread. It's already taken on some peculiar segways as it is. If you could start your own thread by posting your story with a new topic, we will be able to respond just to you.

Twilight

You made a good point about Tony forfeiting his rights now and being sorry later, however, I don't think his primary concern is the financial aspect from what I can tell. It sounds more like his greatest concern is about his wife and family. Just guessing. I hope he considers your warning. Regrets are hard to choke down.

Tony,
You say you don't know when to tell your kids-from-marriage. I've got a couple thoughts for you.

We asked our marriage counselor this too. He had experience with several other families--for example, a couple who brought in their 2 teens to tell of 9yo OC (no contact) in front of the counselor, which went very positively. The father stressed that he was sorry he did it, sorry to set them a bad example, sorry to create a child he could not father, and sorry to hurt their mother. The kids took that well.

Counselor recommended 1)do not tell kids younger than @12-13 unless there is contact because they don't have enough maturity. 2)Tell the kid(s) in front of a counselor or have a counseling appointment for them asap afterward. 3)Do be the one to tell them; don't wait for someone else to tell them, and secrets can be sort of poisonous. (If it becomes necessary to tell a younger child, stress that it's an ADULT problem and none of the children did anything wrong.)

My uncle's OC confronted her half-siblings (of the marriage, my cousins) at their high-school when they were all teens. She knew who her father was, but they did NOT know of her. That is NOT the ideal way to find out! But most of us could be courteous to her without hurting anyone's feelings.

I'd say there's a 50-50 chance your OC will seek some info. when she's older. You should plan w/your W how to handle the possibility, but don't let it ruin your life or marriage. Is your wife willing for you to talk to the OC IF OC contacts you later? Discuss until you can mutually agree what each can handle.

Good luck!
J, in recovery 5y

<small>[ December 22, 2003, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: Jenny ]</small>

Well here we go again! The contact/no contact issue has been debated over and over again.

1) THE OC IS NOT THE ONLY HURT PERSON. Seems like a few on here should go and read all the stories and messages that are on here already. The oc is just one of many who get hurt.

2) Tony, if you don't want contact, and that is what you and your wife agree upon, stand by that decision. Your marriage is important, as are your children of the marriage. You owe them your complete loyalty and it is up to you to fix and heal your family. If no contact is what you choose, stand tall and do it. Read around, you will see that it usually works well. IF you choose on contact later, why? To make yourself feel better? You would have to first make sure your wife was 100% ok with that decision. You would also have to make sure it wouldn't be disruptive to the oc's life at that time.

3) Lots of newbies here. Interesting.

4) What would your wife say/think about contact? We are all different. I myself agree with and support the n/c for a myriad of reasons. I have never once thought otherwise. My husband has never asked me to. However, if he did my answer would still be no contact.

5) If OC should come and want to know the why's of our decision, it will be an honest answer. My husband was deeply sorry for all that had happened and he choose n/c to make his marriage/family heal. There is no reason to lie. The truth is strong enough to stand on it's own. Look, your children are going to suffer knowing about oc. They are going to not have certain financial advantages cause you have to pay cs. Your wife has a huge pain that has to heal. The OC also gets a life of n/c or possibly visitation. Shuttled back and forth. The OW gets to raise a child without his/her father around. Everybody gets hurt. You can't expect to sacrifice some to apease others anymore. OC is not the only one who gets hurt. Two people created this, and everyone gets their piece of the hurt pie. OC is just one of many.

6) Take your time, think, get legal protection for your family and it's finances. This whole process is going to be years (18-21) of details and legal manuvers. So take time, heal your family and love them. Let the laywers handle all the details and live your life. Make your decisions jointly with your wife as to what is best for your family. Contact or no contact. You need to live your life and be happy.

7) I am a huge advocate for no contact. I see it as to humiliating for the children and wife. I see it as them having to adjust and sacrifice to much. There are others here, who it works out for.

My advice to you is to read throgh this whole page, and all the messages. You have posts here from OW types who, believe that everyone in this should sacrifice at the alter of the oc. Their "best for the child" attitude does not and never has included what is best for the children of the marriage. They also like to make light of the importance of the marriage itself. Note this thread, how the wife is somehow ridiculed for staying in a marriage "with a man who would abandon his child.." Yet where is the concern for the well being of the children of the marriage? Then of course there are those who don't have an oc in their life, but pontificate on what is right and wrong, of course their view is that the oc is all that matters. WRONG.

You can learn alot here. What I have learned is that we were 100% correct in choosing no contact.


God Speed.

Felt the need to point this out...I am the half sibling to an OC and I don't agree with no contact. I don't agree that having a brother or sister is a humiliation and I don't agree with the coice my father made to deny me knowledge of my brother/sister. I have felt this way since I found out (secrets always come out). I had this opinion before I became an OW.

Lots of good advice. You have all given me a lot to think about.

Catnip-

Thank you for the suggestions. We are currently seeing a counselor to try and deal with all this. I’ve read about the POJA. Very interesting. I think we are doing a version of it already.

twilight-

In my first post I said I was more than happy to terminate my parental rights if my former other woman met someone that wanted to adopt OC. It has nothing to do with money. I want to pay child support. It makes me feel less guilty for not being involved in her life.

Jenny-

I do agree that 12-13 is a good age to tell the kids. Mine are close to it. My worst fear is that they hear it from someone else. It’s also a matter of public record. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Only family and a few very close friends know. It makes me sick that because of me my kids are going to need counseling.

LynnG

I feel a tremendous amount of guilt for not being a father to OC. If I choose to be in OC life then you are right my kids and wife will be made to suffer even more. It could mean the end of my marriage and I don’t want that. In the end if I chose contact my wife and kids would suffer the most. OC does not know me or have a bond with me. Her mom will go a great job raising her and I think will be able to be both mom and dad. I tell myself that anyway. In our case NC is the best option. I’ve actually had dreams of OC contacting me and they have not gone well. If she does contact me at some point in the future I don’t want anything I say to her then to scar her for life. I’m babbling now.

Thanks for the advice everybody. With the holidays coming up I don’t think I will have much online time so I think the earliest I can check in will be early next week.

Merry Christmas

I'm wondering what the relevance is to pointing out that "Junior Members" have posted on this thread. Let's look at a few statistics pertaining to this thread:-

26 members posted
Of those, 9 were junior members
Listed in order of member number, the posters are:-

391 Jenny
436 K
655 Nerlycrzy
1855 Catnip
7644 Pepperband
8603 JTigger
9693 Ember
11145 JanetS
11698 Cherise
13176 Pops
13525 Twiglight
19939 Still Trying (Junior Member)
25819 Crazylife
20856 4Tori&NateSake
28249 Saved By Faith (Junior Member)
29487 NeedToMoveOn
30056 Wiz (Junior Member)
30209 LynneG
30325 GardenBunny (Junior Member)
30494 Diamond Girl
30992 ktbunch
31422 ImNotYou (Junior member)
31749 Hurtnconfused (Junior Member)
32105 Tony (Junior Member)
32133 A_girl (Junior Member)
32137 Lisaem (Junior Member)

So nearly half of the "Junior Members" are actually longer-registered members than some of the "Older Members".

To those couple of posters who commented on the amount of posts from Junior Members, doesn't mean that you have more experience or insight or advice, it ONLY means you have posted more than the others.

I think that you intimidate newer members with the sort of statements you have made. And they may have JUST registered, but it doesn't mean they have JUST discovered their problems. Like me, they may have struggled alone and confused for several years before finding internet support, so why not lighten up and acknowledge that their views and comments are JUST as valid as anybody elses.

<small>[ December 23, 2003, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: Still Trying ]</small>

twilight,
not everyone lives near OC, either. I've got (non-affair) half-sibs who grew up a thousand miles away from me. We're polite, but not close... they are "Christmas card relatives" and that's about all.

Likewise, my children are growing up FAR away from OC. When they eventually know of OC, I expect it will be something like my own half-sibs: polite, but not close. We think of this as protecting their childhood from XOW's crazy behavior.

For contact to work, everyone involved has to act sane with healthy boundaries. Sometimes that's not possible!

THOSE WHO WISH TO DEBATE CONTACT SHOULD BE ON A DIFFERENT THREAD.

Isn't this thread about what to do should contact be made after n/c was decided?

Either Tony has decided on n/c or he hasn't. Why should that decision change because the child isn't a newborn, but say, 11? Why would contact be then OK. Don't the same reasons apply?

I'm confused.

Jenny,

That is another reason I think my kids will have to be told. Former OW and OC don't live all that far away. It's unlikely we will run into them but you never know.

Tony,

you keep telling yourself that...but as you try to convinve yourself, make sure not to read the real stats or ask any child therapist what their thoughts are.

I'll stop now because what I wish to say to you, has no place here. Good luck with your marriage...and good luck looking in the mirror everyday...you'll need it.

Sorry ladies, I completely get why the BW wants NC...totally get it. But this is the child's father and gets no sympathy from me. Just placing the blame squarely where it belongs.

Oh and Tony, one more thing...did you think about how often your OC is going to have to go to therapy to deal with your decisions? You screwed up all your kids, not just the ones you a choosing to care about.

Hi Tony,
Just danced with my husband to Luther Vandross "I'd rather have the one who owns my heart"

Listen to the words and let that be your guide.
Talks all about fun with ow and wishing he was with "the one who owned his heart"

Above kids or ow, if you find love with your wife it will overtake everything in your life on earth...as it should....you will be overcome with love...

Oh! we live about a minute from ow/oc........

"The greatest of these is love"....I believe it.....


Blessings in the new year,

love
Debi

Merry Christmas to everyone.

tony how old is your oc? Have you seen her at all? Have you had dna testing done? When you say older, at what age are you talking? Have you thought about what you will say? I'm not sure if your oc is even that old to be concerned with it or not. Also, your xow....are you just trying to convience yourself that she will be a good mom and dad? I'm not trying to flame, I'm just trying to see where your head is at with this. Most women are good at being both, is that why you think xow will do the job well? Yes if she finds another man he could adopt the oc, are you sure that is what you really want? Remember once you give up those rights they are gone. But then again it would make life much easier with your family and rebuilding. Again this is not to flame just curious about your reasons. good luck with your family and marry christmas.

Justuss,

I don't understand why you deleted what I posted to catnip. It was severely mild compaired to alot of stuff she has said to long time members here?

But that's fine, you are the moderator.

Merry Christmas to you and yours

Still Trying, think we're talking about a teen or young-adult OC contacting the biofather/family after years of no-contact... like an adoptee who seeks info from a birthparent. I have nooooo problem w/that.

I see these situations as very similar to adoption... better than OC raised with fighting/ugliness between households. That isn't so evil as some (Twilight et.al.) like to think.

Why assume contact is so *wonderful* for the kid?? Plenty of people who used to be married and share custody can't do it civilly and damage their kids.... far fewer post-affair succeed in shared custody! Reality vs. ideal.

Tony, I hope you read my cousin story and discuss telling kids w/your W. Good luck!
J