pops I have appreciated your support and understand your POV completely. But you know I am more dificult than to agree w/ you all the time right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

sometimes, it is in the agreement that OC cannot be w/ dad overnight unless dad is actually there or can stay overnight in dad's "custody" including staying w/ grandparents. Ours is that OC cannot be left overnight w/ anyone but family (excluding a slumber party or something like that of course). So if it was "our time" but H & I were going out of town, yes, OC could stay w/grandparents w/ BC.

The last time we just let OW have OC and forfeited our time because we would not be there for the transfer otherwise, other family members (on both sides) do not want any C w OP.

We did not ask for an exchange because OW has turned us down so many times we have given up and I'd rather just forfeit it than fuss over it. (see I'm learning! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Sunny, I think you have a good attitude and a good grip on things, just be prepared for the unexpected.

Why will you eventually only have EOweekend and akternate holidays? What is the reason for that? Just wondering. That's pretty minimal. Are you and H planning on ever having more kids? Again just wondering.

And pops, funny about the hair color comment. My H has a better response when asked one of those "difficult" questions like, Do I look fat? H response?.......I love you. LOL But I never ask that, I would more likely ask, do these shoes look ok w/ these pants? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

lynn,,,,,,, to continue.

<<<<<So when telling people that the kids will take their cue from how the betrayed acts, you were right in saying that she needs to be 100% accepting or they will feel it. >>>>>>

hey we finally agree on something other then getting good legal advice

<<<<<Just as her husband has to be aware that his children will see him in a different way too. Her children might say one thing, but seeing daddy with the oc and seeing their mother having to deal with the mistake he made, could very easily change their minds. They could be very uncomfortable with it, they should be allowed to express themselves honsetly. If the BS is all happy with it, are her kids going to be afraid to say their honest feelings? I worry about BC and all they are expected to deal with. Those are the only children that I lobby for on this board.>>>>

all i know is that our kids all feel free to express their feelings in this situation and i have to say that after the dust settled abit they have ALL come to love grace and for given fh. yes for the older ones they do see fh in a different light. but that light is not necessarily a negative one. for the older ones they now understand the reprecushions of ones actions. for the younger ones they haven't put the emotional upheaval that these things cause as of yet but i am sure that as they grow they will understand the pain involved and hopefully try and avoid these situations in their own lives. time will only tell.

Good Morning. KT just be the way the guidelines read, this is the least we will take. I would have more time if allowed. But my H works so much during the week, I don't think she will be giving up the baby to spend time w/ me alone. But if needed to go somewhere w/ her 5 yr old, bb game? program, all she would have to do is call and we would watch the child. I think it is important that this child bonds w/us early, not waiting til 4-5 yrs old. Maybe by the time he is that old he will be comfortable and use to the situation. I'm really ready to work w/ her and I am going to be flexable. I always have w/ my D and her dad. I never bothered him he never bothered me. I try and be the best example to my children, sometimes things don't work out between people and sometimes things happen. But you do get though it and most of the time will make you a stonger, better person. I know it will be up and down until we are all used to this. She will have to get use to looking at me and I, her. I will expect the unexpected, but quit thinking of the worst. Forgiveness is a very stong power. If I have forgiven my H is it not right to also forgive OW? (Some may think I am crazy) But I think in order to be the christian adult, I want to be,then forgiveness is not just for a select few. I will always remember it, and will never let my M get to that point again. I don't know how the OW feels about me, but I think alot of times you GET what you GIVE. Thinking that she doesn't give a rats behind about me, but two wrongs don't make a right and as my mom saids you get more w/ sugar than vinagar. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I know contact will not work if I hate her and she hates me and we make it very clear everytime we see each other. She is calming down, realizing no she can't break this M, she has tried the ultimate stunt and it didn't work. Now she, like the rest of us have to live w/our decisions. I think I am getting over the jealiousy, she didn't have anything that I didn't have, she's not any better than I, She is and will pay the price for hurting people and herself, Christ is her judge, not me. I read that hatred and jealously, envy, these things that you out of your closness w/ God, and he wants everyone to be close to him and forgiveness brings you back. I have to think this is true and he will take my enemies away from me, weither they move, change of heart, or he talkes them home, he will prevail.
Oh and as for more children w/ us. If God wants us to have anymore, he will bless us, if not we are blessed enough w/ the ones we have and the one that is comming. Ok nuff of my preaching. Talk back at ya'll later.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny

next,, gem that means you,,,,,,,,,

the dialoge (sp?) between your s and h is what i would consider normal for older children in these situations. my oldest son and our oldest daughter were very upset and voiced their opinions to fh quite openly.

since that time however, since i made the decision to stay in the marriage they have learned to forgive fh and hold no animosity towards grace. sure they have feelings of disappointment of fh because of her choices. BUT they have learned to forgive and that in the whole grand scheme of life this is a minor setback. not excusing the act of infidelity in any way, shape or form. if you look at the atrocities going on on the world today with people decapitating someone and airing it to the world, fathers killing their w's and daughters because she dis honored the family by being a kidnap and rape VICTIM. they have put our tarmatic affair into perspective. mainly because they have seen me move on with my life. not thtu acceptance but rather thru tolerance and forgiveness.

<<<<< H gets blasted occasionally from our son...especially the name for oc and having to pay....son uses racial epithet as oc is not the same um...er.."color" as all of us. We are all caucasian but son uses slang for dark Italians. It is his way of lashing out at the man who is now his fallen hero. What a burden to have to take on. Both H and son>>>>>

this is sad in ways. one, although your son has every right to be upset about his fathers lack of character in the choice to have an A. he is still carrying a tremendous burden since he can't seem to find a way to forgiveness of his father as you have for you h.

two, imho, the use of racial slurs says to me that there is much more anger in your son then just the A. grace is of mixed blood also but that doesn't cause me or any of my kids to use ethnic degradation about her. that would be a reference to all people of her bio culture.

and this is just my personal perspective on the topic. people don't use racial names and slurs towards just one person without having some pent up anger at the whole.

<<<<<Again I will add S doesn't hate oc, just acts as if he is a non-entity. He has the right. His Dad said things while he was growing up that all came crumbling down the minute he knew his Dad was not only unfaithful , but ow was having his child!>>>>>>>

yes your son has that right, to recognize the oc. no arguement here. also to be angry with his dad. but i am sure that your h didn't go out and intentionaly get ow preg. so why can't your son see that the choice of the A and unprotected sex was a pi$$ poor one and still find forgiveness of his father?

hey i take no offense at all. and i hope that you take none also. i also hope that you see understand that i am not trying to change your mind or attitude about this and just expressing my views on the subjects.

<<<<<<<Would love to have a conversation with all of us together to hear one anothers views. In person, ya know?>>>>>>>

ME TOO, in fact i would love to be able to sit down with many of the people here and do the same.

i said it before if i ever hit the lotto everyone is going to get a weekend trip for a P/C mini convention. on me.

kt,,,,,,,, that is exactly what i meant when i said you have to have flexibility and choose your battles.

great job.

Kill joy this may help if you read what others have said on N/C ver C.
Good luck
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny D

I know my son is having a harder time dealing with this OC/OW situation. He's 19 and he also makes snide remarks about the money. But (not to say your way is wrong) I take his head off. He WILL not disrespect his father, EVER, in his father's home. Maybe that is old-fashioned.
I have explained to him H made a mistake. All humans make mistakes. Even H has told him,"This is not a mistake. Mistakes are when you are trying to do something good."
It has only happened a few times. But my daughter? Well.....she can't wait to get her hands on her sister. Carries a picture of her and shows it off when ever she can. She is 13. We have her in counseling right now so we are sure we are reading her right. Make sure she is feeling what she is saying. Make sense?
I want to make contact work. I have a monetary limit and an emotional limit of what I can take. I am not anywhere near the end. I told my H the other night, we may run out of money..but we'll never run out of brains. Whereas, the OW and her H have money, they will run out of brains. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
OW is immature. I know that I am not. So I do my best to keep my head up and when it falls....H holds it up for me.

Karma...I know it is out there. So I am going to be the lady my mama raised. Not be ashamed of OC or H. Just stand tall and let the Lord help me along the way.

Ent, My D is 11 and has told me several times in conversations about cousins and such that she doesn't want any brothers and sisters, no more babies. She said they mess in her stuff and she HATES it. So I'm kinda at a point to where we need to tell her, but don't exactly know how? I guess that is what a MC/C is for. But do you think the girl's handle it better than the boys?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny D

Sunnydale,

Im so happy to have stumbled apon your post. We seem to have the same out look on contact, and since I had so many negitive responces from here becouse I wanted contact etc. Im just so glade there is someone who see's things like me.

I would never ask my h to have no contact, that is his child. I never not wanted contact, I loved my h and imidiatly loved his daughter. Even though she is not part of me, she will always feel part of me. If at any time I can't handle the xow, I will leave the marriage, not ask for no contact. That's how I feel anyway, and it seems you do to.

I also don't belive in personaly taking too much control over the situation. I do not want any contact with the xow. That is way to hard, espeshialy the way she is. So my h will always be the one who has contact with her. The have a busness together, among haveing a 5 month old daughter, and they will always have contact. This is hard emotionaly sometimes for me, as obviousely I had 11 years of my life being something completly different. But I respect my h, and belive what he tells me is genuin. I don't think there is the slitest chance they will reqindle anything, so there for I have chosen not to be extreamly pushy and abrasive with some things.

Right now I personaly do not have contact with his daughter. It's a new situation all around, we were seperated a long time and I have just now moved back in with him. We are takeing things day by day, and I know that sometime soon she will be a part of my life. I do not want to push things on my h, as I relize this whole affair, was a rough ride for him aswell.

The oc is no problem for me, the ow is a problem. I know many here do not have contact becouse of the ow, but that is something I dont' fully understand either.

The exow in my life, is well a bit off. She doesn't see things clearly, and is very minipulative etc. And even though it agrivates me to know end, I would never want to be the one to deal with her personaly, that to me would contantly be ripeing open my wound of the past 2 years. It's just to soon. I would hope mabe by the time she goes to kindergarden that we can all go to an event as her parents, like other familys do, with out a problem. Blended family's of course, with step parents and bio parents.

I would like to think that can happen, but I know that is not now, nor will it be next year or the year after.

Something that helped me personaly deal with the mixed feelings I had when she was born was trying to look at things like this. My marriage for all practical reasons ended 2 i/2 years ago, he had a rebound relationship (it unforchunatly was a real relationship regardles of how bad that hurts to say) and now we are seeing where things are going in our "new" life together, which includes a step daughter. It's not that black and whight, but it does help to bring it down to the lowest common denominater.

I am makeing a conshouse choice to enter into a new relationship with someone that has a child I didn't bare. There still is a lot of bitterness from me to the exow and is why I know I do not want to be the go between ever. Not only that but I think it is personaly insulting and degrading to tell our h's that we want to be the ones as the go between, that's basicly saying to them we do not think you will behave apropratly with the exow, so no your not alowed to co parent with her. Regardless of how uncomfortable it is I do not feel we have the right to dictate what our h's do with regardes to their children, and how they are going to handle the ow , arangments , time etc...

If a border is crossed we can make a decishion on how to handle that, stay or go. If contact becomes to much for us we can stay or go. If the memorie of the affair is to much to bare, we can stay or go. I do not feel we have the right to treat our spouse as a second class sitisen, with out the freedom of choice in how to carry out contact with there own child, and the mother of there child. Regardless of the sting it causes us. All of these intence feelings dwindle in time, and as I said earler I hope some day we can all be there for her in the same room at an event, and it be ok.

Someone mentioned the fact that contact with oc will harm the children from the marriage. I disagree. And agree fully with POPS, they will fallow suit. If you show love and acseptance in your life , they will also.

I have five children , ranging from age 11 to 3 and they love there new baby sister, they have no weird feelings tward her at all. Any weirdnesss expressed to my from them has not been about their new sister.

One other thing I just wanted to mention to you. Even though your gung ho about how you feel and what you want right now. Expect to feel really weird when you find out that the baby is here. I had about 3 days of being very emotional. Weird feelings. It is going to hit you even though your being so strong and possitive. It hit me like a ton of bricks, oh my God this is real. I was the only mother of his children and now that was never going to be the way it was agian. I was scared about everything. She was the last baby in our family, I was done. etc... But it got better, and is getting better. And I can't wait untill she can be truley integrated into our family.


Sunnydale, and Pops, you made me smile today, just knowing that Im not the only one who thinks how I do. You both are great, and you can tell just from your posts, that you respect and love your spouses so much, and respect your selves.

Sunnydale, take things day by day and regardless if you are prepared to handle any situation that comes along remember you can't prepare for the turns life brings us. With some things you must go with the flow, and be a leaf blown by the will of God.

killjoy

Originally posted by killjoy:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Not only that but I think it is personaly insulting and degrading to tell our h's that we want to be the ones as the go between, that's basicly saying to them we do not think you will behave apropratly with the exow, so no your not alowed to co parent with her. Regardless of how uncomfortable it is I do not feel we have the right to dictate what our h's do with regardes to their children, and how they are going to handle the ow , arangments , time etc...

...I do not feel we have the right to treat our spouse as a second class sitisen, with out the freedom of choice in how to carry out contact with there own child, and the mother of there child. Regardless of the sting it causes us. All of these intence feelings dwindle in time, and as I said earler </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed...you shouldn't dictate to, or ever treat a FWH like a second class citizen. However, you are in a marriage and BOTH of your interests need to be considered--ALWAYS.

We know it as POJA. killjoy, I'm worried that if you don't attempt to POJA this situation, you WILL wind up walking away from the M altogether.

As I see it, you are giving yourself 2 choices. Basically, they are, 1. Shut up and let him do as he wants, making all his own decisions. 2. Divorce/leave, when/if I can't handle the results of his decisions. Regarding #1, remember you are married! Decisions on something so important as ow/OC issues need to be determined by BOTH of you. killjoy, it's not like he's asking if he can go golfing every Wednesday evening after work...this is BIG stuff! Regarding #2, divorce doesn't have to be the alternative, if you have POJA'd the ow/OC issues in the first place. It can all be worked out, but not by one of you doing all the sacrificing!

The following is the opening paragraphs by Dr. Harley before he goes into explaining exactly how to to POJA, please read it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Policy of Joint Agreement also avoids the worst advice of our Giver and Taker. In the state of Intimacy, we are encouraged by our Giver to sacrifice our own happiness so that the other person can be happy. In the state of Conflict, we are encouraged by our Taker to let our spouses sacrifice so that we can be happy. Neither of these are worthy objectives because in both cases someone gets hurt.

In marriage, your interests and your spouses interests should be considered simultaneously. *** One of you should not suffer for the benefit of the other, even willingly, because when either of you suffer, one is gaining at the other's expense. If you both care about each other, you will not let the other suffer so that you can have what you want. When you are willing to let the other sacrifice for you, you are momentarily lapsing into a state of selfishness that must somehow be corrected before damage is done.*** The Policy of Joint Agreement provides that correction. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Take good care,

~ad

***edited to say, sorry, tried to include a link to the entire POJA page, but didn't work. You can find it by clicking on "concepts" at the top of the page.***

<small>[ June 28, 2004, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: autumnday ]</small>

Killjoy,

I think the fact that you are willing to sacrifice your marriage and the well being of your children all for the sake of oc makes you a little hard to believe.
Please tell me what makes this child so special that her happiness and well being is so much more important than everyone elses ?

KJ, I am ok with the contact issue, but I will not let it be just him. I have input and so does H and OW. We are going to have to find a happy med. I am over the hate for her and him for what she TRIED to do to my family. However I will not stand by and just everything goes as OW saids. This is MY home and she and her child will not run it. H has to listen to your input and you are the step mom so you do have a say. Its hard to do contact and it takes alot of giving. But you don't give up yourself or your children. I love my H and I'm standing by him as long as he is honest! And if hes not and if he doesn't keep his promise, then neither will I. I will take the OC and love it as a part of my family. And hope with all my heart the STOW will wake up and do what is right for her child also. I really think God doesn't want these childern used as pawns in a game and people who are "using" their children do have and chance of God taking them or the children. Like someone else said Sin does NOT go unpunished. Good luck and keep your forgiving grace, it makes you special. But don't give up your grace to make them happy only. You have to be happy also.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny D

Sunny

Good for you, rightnow my h wants c with his d, he feels as if he should need it, right niow i say to accept this marriage i have to accept OC, but as I have stated OW says he cant see her. She made H sign a piece of paper (i don't think legally) saying that BASICALLY he will not interfer and have anything to do with this C life. Which in a way has hurt him.

l-315 I don't think just a pc of paper that he signed would be legal. Shoot some of the "legal" papers you sign don't mean squat. I reall cant stand these STOW, whose "sperm donors" who want to have contact with a child they didn't plan for want to be a part of their lives and you have the slut puppy incurbators how act like a they have a pc of candy infront of a ants face! They beat all I have ever seen!. I swear you know these intellegent, hansome, trustful men we married turn into these dumb a$$es! These women carried this child they planned to use as pawns in a chess game to be allowed so much control? HELLO what is wrong with this picture? If you got a divorce your H would have your children 50% of the time so was is the difference? Then they come up with "I'm afraid she's going to hurt or be mean to my child" Oh please. If we wanted to hurt anyone it would be them! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> (Can you tell my STOW is at her [censored] again?) And then if we chose N/C we are just controling freaks that want our H to not to see their children. That would be another OH PLEASE ! We cant control how our H feel and if THEY don't want to see a child that they didn't have any idea they where creating. They abandoned (sp) this child. The one that the STOW created to use as a tool to be apart of a life they so desire to have and cant! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I really think that STOW's who play these games should loose the OC to the FAMILY it needs to be in. Not with a woman w/ all these kids w/ different daddy's and differnt names and collecting their checks to boot. WHEW I'm finished and feel better should have started another post. Sorry
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny D