POJA

Here is the link to help newer MBers understand what makes a marriage move forward ... even in a crisis causing great hurt and confusion .... such as the aftermath of an affair. These concepts work with or without an OC.

Don't skip "Four Guidelines For Successful Negotiation" at the bottom of the page.
Pep

PS ... the POJA has ZERO input by OW or OM. The OP is NOT a POJA partner. The MARRIED COUPLE POJA's alone , exclusive of outside interests. The married couple will likely POJA what to do about the OP, but the OP is never a participant in the POJA negotiations.

Therefore, the OP opinions are moot to the POJA between a married couple problem-solving. Non-issue what OP wants, asks for, desires, thinks will not work, gets angry about, feels, or pouts about. This is about marriage building not apeasing an outside person.

Pep

Sorry all... I didn't mean to bail; I have been terribly sick!

Anyways..Needtomoveon I wanted to answer your question.

Yes... it will be my H sitting down with his son and explaining how this all came about. He's a very bright little boy and is starting to ask about it. My H is taking it slow. My H has always expressed to me that he wants to teach all his children how "ones" behavior can affect everybody.

But if I know my H, he will tell it like it is and won't blame others in his life. I am very proud of him. NEVER did he blame the OW or anybody else. He is taken full responsibility. Its too bad that the OW didn't see this way..she blames ...everybody...ME....My H .... her parents...EVERYBODY. THE POOR Me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Attitude <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Don't most OW have the "poor me attitude' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Like I said before :
THEY CEASE BEING A VICTIM WHEN THEY FIND OUT MM IS MARRIED AND CONTINUE THE RELATIONSHIP ANYWAY!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by wizard:
<strong> Sorry all... I didn't mean to bail; I have been terribly sick!

Anyways..Needtomoveon I wanted to answer your question.

Yes... it will be my H sitting down with his son and explaining how this all came about. He's a very bright little boy and is starting to ask about it. My H is taking it slow. My H has always expressed to me that he wants to teach all his children how "ones" behavior can affect everybody.

But if I know my H, he will tell it like it is and won't blame others in his life. I am very proud of him. NEVER did he blame the OW or anybody else. He is taken full responsibility. Its too bad that the OW didn't see this way..she blames ...everybody...ME....My H .... her parents...EVERYBODY. THE POOR Me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Attitude <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wizard that is good of your husband. It's the right thing to do. I have no problem stating my role in the situation. After all it took two. I know this like I know my own name. I plan on doing the same exact thing when she is old enough. My older kids have already started to ask questions and believe it or NOT.....I have not put down my daughters father once. I see it though as your xow has more to answer to though to her child by what I remember of your story.

Mary..I am glad that your little one is doing well. I have always kept with your story on the other board...

Anyways Mary..I am glad to hear that you plan to handle it the same way...

My H and I both agree that all the children need to know the realities...

Lets hope the next generation of adults are little more brighter than we were ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks. She is doing very well. She is a very happy baby and the twins are so in love with her. Hey why lie.....enough lies have already been told, you have to come to point where honesty is the best policy and hope that the examples being shown NOW and learing from mistakes makes up for everything and just doing everything you can to make up and provide emotionaly and everything else that you can for you kids. You do the best you can with what you have and make the best of it. It's LIFE!!!

I try not to get involved in these discussions (OW/OC) as I don't really have any experience with it but I refuse to stand idly by and watch these pitiful men we call husbands get away without so much as a scratch. You let him off the hook b/c he chose to come back and take care of his responsibility? His responsibility is to be true and faithful to his wife and children. Not have this as an after thought or b/c he got caught. You should be getting in his azz, not excusing his behavior. I know, I know it's easier to hate her than to hate him but he did the most damage. Would it still be the OW fault if she called up and said your husband is trying to sleep with me but I told him not til he was divorce? What excuse would you come up with for your husband then? My sister’s had just such a thing happen, yet she still managed to blame the OW. Said that she thought the OW was a whore so she believed her man. Thought he wouldn’t be stupid enough to try to get with someone he already knew, knew his wife. I’ve seen him with another woman before but I won't subject myself to that kind of drama. She wouldn’t believe me anyway. I know this b/c I told my mom and she told her and she is still with him.

I am a married woman and my husband and I are separated. I know that he is an [censored] all by himself. I could blame plenty of people (friends, upbringing) for it but it's HIS choice (there's that word again) to be that way, and no one else's. If another woman chooses to take advantage of our hard time then I'm going to be pissed as hell but mostly with him b/c he's the one that stood there before God promising me always and forever and forsaking all others. Again his choice. There was no gun put to his head. He's the one who can choose to honor that and stick to it. My husband is very attractive, with a beautiful smile and a muscular build. Women always have and always will be after him. Some will believe in the sanctity of marriage while others think it's okay as long as he's not happy. Ultimately it's HIS choice (unless in the unlikely event that he is raped) to take her up on her offer or not. His choice and his choice alone. Just like any number of your husbands. I'm not saying let the OW off the hook just put the bulk of the blame where it should go. If this woman had never gotten pregnant you may have never known about her. Then who would you hate then? Who would you hate if you didn't have a face to go with the name or a name to go with the affair? How would you feel if your husband thought of YOU as the "biggest mistake in his life" and not this OW?

That man was married and already had obligations to his children. Isn't this the concept that should be on our husband's minds. If he's a grown man why should other people take responsibility for HIS actions. He can choose to screw or not to screw.

While it takes two to tango, those same two are not allowed to make a decision once there is a pregnancy. That is 100% the CHOICE of the female. As it was the MM choice to sex her raw, w/o protection. These men could be coming home with a lot worse than an OC.

...he will be told the truth. That he was the product of an illicit affair and that my husband didn't want to lose his wife and chose no contact. PERIOD. Is that all? What about the fact that daddy was a selfish [censored] who only thought about himself. Although he doesn't think like that anymore he did not go unpunished and I never want you to grow up and be a man like that. I want you to value your commitment to your wife and never do to her and your children what your father did to this family.


It won't be hard for some 17 year old, in the throws of first love to figure out what mom was. Yeah, mom was a whore and dad was the poor victim (only cuz he chose me over her) and he was raped over and over again and poof here you are.

I wonder what these ow are going to tell their own daughters when they come home some night with a broken heart cause their husbands cheated?
I wonder what women like you are going to tell your sons when they come home and say that they have cheated? I mean after all, Dad did it and mom blames the OW. I can’t lose.

OW also have to get over the thought process on how the MM should be daddy to their children. Not ever considering the harm it could create in his family. This man NEVER considered the harm that this would do to HIS family. He has an obligation to his seed no matter how it came along (unless by sperm bank donation). These children ARE victims by these so-called women and by their selfish fathers.

He has no obligation to this woman but every obligation to this child. He took away that choice when he was out there having all kinds of fun ruining lives in the process. Things he doesn't seem to care about as he's spewing come inside every woman who will let him. And his children should be embarrased by the fact that they have a lying cheating father who didn't think about him or their mother while he was out doing his dirt. He doesn't even respect his wife and family enough to wear a condom. I have a friend who is HIV positive because her husband cheated. She said that she would much rather have and OC to deal with than this. My ex brought home crabs. Thank God, I did not have sex with him!

I have no sympathy for OW who whine about no contact, or how their child is a victim, etc. This is what THEY CHOSE for themselves and their child. PERIOD. Although it may not sound like it but I too have no sympathy for the OW. She does indeed choose the possibility of having a fatherless child by her actions and should she chose to sleep with him unprotected she has no one to blame but herself. He isn’t there for the children he has now (obviously b/c he’s there with you) so what do you expect for your own? But I have zero sympathy for the MM who thinks that this is somehow not his fault that if he says well I don't want to have anything to do with her, all is supposed to be well. Buddy you should have thought like that before you were lying to me to sex her behind my back. You should have been telling her I don't want to have anything to do with you, I'm married and I love my wife.

Do you honestly think the MM should be thrilled to have an oc.... Again that is what fidelity and condoms are for. Why should he get the choice after the fact? If you got pregnant today and your husband said get rid of it, I’m not thrilled, would you?


Can you really not grasp the fact that they choose no contact with the child cause of your usually, unrealistic demands? Yes like our apparently unrealistic demands that he save his penis, love and kisses for us, his wife.

Can't you really understand just what you are to them? And what were WE to him when he was laying up with her?

They, as a family do not have to make decisions with you in mind. This is true but where was family decision making time when he was laying up with her? Did you have any say so then?

Mom was obviously "morally challenged". How embarrassing. And yes, the Children of the marriage get to realize that dad was a jerk. So OW was morally challenged but dad was only a jerk? I really don't get this. Why do so many of us allow these men to get off so easily. Oh I guess I can forgive you because you came back. Never mind you should have never strayed in the first place.

Original poster, I'm sure it seems like I'm attacking you but I'm not. I'm attacking the thought process. The process that makes women go to bars, work place, etc and physically attack women that their BF and H have been accused of sleeping with. The same mentality that made some woman go to no ends to stalk me b/c it was said (totally untrue) that her husband and I had a thing. It wasn't me, it was someone else but when she asked for a name he gave her mine. She should have put her foot in his azz but instead she found herself confronting 8 other women and all of which DID sleep with her husband. He has 3 OC from 3 different women. No respect for her or their children yet she blamed all of us.

I have been cheated on and it hurt like hell but there was NOTHING that my ex said that could ever make me fault her over him. I don’t care if she purposefully set out to destroy our relationship…it was his choice to go thru with it. She didn’t hold him down and take it. He offered it willingly with no thoughts of me or my pain in the process.

Women please stop allowing your husbands off so easily. He is truly the one at fault. He’s the one who made promises that he did not keep and did so willingly. All we did was love him. All he did was show that he didn’t respect us. He could have brought us home any number of things that we would have not had the choice to ignore. Take it from my friend.

Originally posted by Unfoolish?:
I try not to get involved in these discussions (OW/OC) as I don't really have any experience with it but I refuse to stand idly by and watch these pitiful men we call husbands get away without so much as a scratch.

Your pitiful husband??? Is that what you mean?

MY husband is not pitiful <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You let him off the hook b/c he chose to come back and take care of his responsibility?

And what would be a better choice after an affair than a 180 turn and to accept responsibility and rebuild a marriage?

His responsibility is to be true and faithful to his wife and children.

No arguement here.... and if he fell away from his life, and had an affair, and later he sees the light, if he reclaims his role as a man husband and father while renouncing his role as an adulteror.... he might (at the wife's descretion) be given another chance.

Not have this as an after thought or b/c he got caught. You should be getting in his azz, not excusing his behavior.

And how would "getting in his [censored]" help recovery? I do not get your point.

I know, I know it's easier to hate her than to hate him but he did the most damage.

The issue of "hate" is not germain to MARRIAGE BUILDING, I agree.


I am a married woman and my husband and I are separated. I know that he is an [censored] all by himself. I could blame plenty of people (friends, upbringing) for it but it's HIS choice (there's that word again) to be that way, and no one else's.

I guess you are headed for a divorce... is that correct? Do you have no plans to rebuild your marriage?

If another woman chooses to take advantage of our hard time then I'm going to be pissed as hell but mostly with him b/c he's the one that stood there before God promising me always and forever and forsaking all others. Again his choice.

Correct.

And if there is going to be a marital recovery.... both spouses must come to the table and take the steps to rebuild and protect their family.

There was no gun put to his head. He's the one who can choose to honor that and stick to it.

An affair is a terrible thing, for sure.

My husband is very attractive, with a beautiful smile and a muscular build. Women always have and always will be after him. Some will believe in the sanctity of marriage while others think it's okay as long as he's not happy. Ultimately it's HIS choice (unless in the unlikely event that he is raped) to take her up on her offer or not. His choice and his choice alone.

I am so sorry your home your family have been victimized by your husband's poor choices.

Just like any number of your husbands. I'm not saying let the OW off the hook just put the bulk of the blame where it should go.

The "blame game" is useless.

Responsibility is a much more benificial concept for rebuilding.

If this woman had never gotten pregnant you may have never known about her. Then who would you hate then? Who would you hate if you didn't have a face to go with the name or a name to go with the affair? How would you feel if your husband thought of YOU as the "biggest mistake in his life" and not this OW?

I don't understand what you wrote.... How is this relevent to marriage building?

When a MARRIED MAN repents, feel remorse , and returns to the marriage committed to recovery ... is this not something to REJOICE???


These children ARE victims by these so-called women and by their selfish fathers.

You know, some of the posters on this site are WW who got pregnant by their lovers.... and who also repented, expressed remorse, and returned to the marriage and do the work of rebuilding.

The gender bias you are so enraged about is moot.

ANY MARRIED PERSON who cheats is risking so much more than they usually realize at the time.

And his children should be embarrased by the fact that they have a lying cheating father who didn't think about him or their mother while he was out doing his dirt.

You are wishing shame upon the children of the marriage? I don't think that is what you mean to say... but it is not clear what you mean to say.... just that you are very angry and VERY hurt.

((( hugs )))

He doesn't even respect his wife and family enough to wear a condom. I have a friend who is HIV positive because her husband cheated. She said that she would much rather have and OC to deal with than this. My ex brought home crabs. Thank God, I did not have sex with him!

I am so sorry for are a betrayed wife.

Is your husband still cheating?

Pep

Bravo PEP!

Very wise words!

Many posters like foolish? are as thick as fog. They just don't get it... They figure that just b/c the WW Spouse has more commitments then the OW that lets them off the hook?!? I never could figure out this logic???

"Hatered" for the OW in my situation is way off base...

I felt nothing but "PITY" for this lady... this was a lady that thought so little of herself that she could do this to herself and her family. Pity for the fact that she; TOO: is capable of co-conspirtory to hurting another family in this way.

They don't want to see that they are capable of hurting another human being in the worse way possible.

My guess is that foolish? has never been in this position before and I pray she never will be.

In my case, my H did take full responsibility unfortunately the OW did not... it cost her dearly...

wiz

///Again that is what fidelity and condoms are for.///
That is what birth control pills, diaphrams, spermacide , IUDs and keeping your legs closed is for.

/// Why should he get the choice after the fact? ///
Because women do. Thats called EQUAL RIGHTS.
Why can't you OW get it??!!
YES !! MM is 50%responsible for the pregnancy but you my sister are 100% responsible for the outcome. So don't bytch about it when you don't get what you want in the end. You made your choice now live with it.

<small>[ October 11, 2004, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Jtigger ]</small>

Good lord Unfoolish, where on earth do you get the idea that the husband gets off scott free? That is hardly the case at all. The reality is that many husbands are horrified at what they have done and make amends, you would be shocked to know the lenghts to which they will go to keep a wife. I think you believe that wives are sitting back, giving the hubby a backrup while blaming the ow for everything. NOT TRUE.

HOWEVER, that said, the wife owes the ow not one iota of respect or care for her future, her wellbeing, nothing. If a OW is whining about the XMM not seeing the oc, well to bad for her. She is taking a piece of the hurt pie with her. The wife doesn't have to care about it.

I think that you need to realize there are many many men who are disgusted with what they have done. You can read how ow hate the xmm, etc, yada yada, imagine what the XMM thinks of the ow? The same sense of disgust and "ugh what have I done"

You wishing havoc on the chilren of the marriage speaks volumes to your character, or lack thereof.
They are innocent of all of this. They did nothing to cause any of this for anyone and should not be expected to sacrifice for the oc.

LynnG,

You took the words right out of my mouth!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

JT

AMEN! LynnG!

Really... I have to wonder about some people. They seriously think..that we completely blame it all on them...

Let me tell you another thing foolish...

My H was absolutely TERRIFIED...it was like bucket of ice cold water thrown on him. He REGRETED it BIG time....

He still goes through spells... I HAVE forgiven him..completely... but you know what?? He still has a hard time forgiving himself....

They have to live the rest of their lives...with the knowledge of what they have done to the people he loves the most in life.

I think the ow like to believe that wives only blame them so they can see themselves as the victim. That way they don't have to look at what they really are.

They can't fathom the idea that some men are disgusted and horrifed and ashamed and embarrassed. Cause if they did, they would see the truth of it all. That for him to be disguted, he is disgusted at being with her. That to be horrified, he would find her horrifying. That to be ashamed, he is ashamed at being with her. Instead, they think we all blame them and beg and plead with our men to stay with us.

They don't want to know about how they tell us how sorry they are, with tears running down their cheeks. They like to think the first thing a MM thinks of is money and how much it will cost him to divorce. Yet it is clearly stated that it is the divorced woman who suffers financially, and that men recover quickly. Sorry, but maybe OW are concerend with finances all the time, but when a couple is facing this, that is the last thing being discussed.

And they say the BW are in denial? LOL

oh yah! MY H sure got off free!

SO free that it wasn't until recently did he realize that he is no longer afraid that when he returns home from work that I & our kids WON'T be there.

Yah so free-----the A was about 8 years ago & he just BARELY has a bit of security that I will be there when he gets home?

And it wasn't because of anything I was doing or not doing to him----he was insecure all by his lonesome. No amount of reassurance of my love & forgiveness of him could take away his own unforgiveness & guilt.

He was living in daily fear that 'one day' I would just up & leave him!

Not to mention having to see your own son getting headaches & vomiting from the stress of C w/ OC. And hearing OW scream @ your own son that you did NOT think you were his dad? Then hearing your younger son ask why he can't see OC, his sibling, everyday? And crying because he doesn't want OC to leave?

If that is your idea of getting off free-----well then UNfoolish you really are FOOlish!!!!!!!!

KTBunch... You said a mouthful!

The only thing that I can figure out is that the OW is sooooooooooo pissed about the fact that he didn't leave his family behind..for her. They constantly spewwed their garbage...
Whinning away..how awful these men..are.... its just their way of taking the reflection off them...

They got to blame someone...

Just think some of these ladies are raising children! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LynnG:
<strong> I think the ow like to believe that wives only blame them so they can see themselves as the victim. That way they don't have to look at what they really are.

They can't fathom the idea that some men are disgusted and horrifed and ashamed and embarrassed. Cause if they did, they would see the truth of it all. That for him to be disguted, he is disgusted at being with her. That to be horrified, he would find her horrifying. That to be ashamed, he is ashamed at being with her. Instead, they think we all blame them and beg and plead with our men to stay with us.

They don't want to know about how they tell us how sorry they are, with tears running down their cheeks. They like to think the first thing a MM thinks of is money and how much it will cost him to divorce. Yet it is clearly stated that it is the divorced woman who suffers financially, and that men recover quickly. Sorry, but maybe OW are concerend with finances all the time, but when a couple is facing this, that is the last thing being discussed.

And they say the BW are in denial? LOL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LynnG, it's because most mm go on and on with the ow about the money and how the bw will take that and use there kids about them. Sometimes just sometimes these mm put the ideas that you just mentioned in the ow's head. But for the record......I truely believe that if the mm was that much in love with someone none of that would matter. With the laws for parents it would be very hard for a mm not to get joint custody even with having an affair........and you can always work the money out as well. But when it's being said, these mm are very conviencing.

Mary...

I know that alot of MM out there convince the OW that they stay married b/c of finances...children...but to the life of me..I can't understand why some would even risk "pregnancy" in a situation like this. Knowing that 9 out of 10 times... the results are so unfavourable?

In this day and age; we as women have to get smarter.... we think too much with heart...instead of our heads.

We allow ourselves to be fooled... b/c of all in the name of "LOVE"

We have to raise our girls to be smarter... we have to teach them that actions speak louder than words. If we don't our girls are going suffer the same fate...and heartaches.

I teach my girls, that they are responsilbe for their own bodies... I teach my son the same values. I don't want my girls produicing babies without fathers..and I don't want my son to be at the mercy of women that can ruin his future for him and his children.

Too many families..to many children.. don't even have a chance...to lead normal lives..

We have witness it ..time and again... children witness far too much. Its hard enough for them dealing with everyday life.. but as adults we make it even harder..kids today don't know who they are coming home too. Its the children that pay the price..they have to do the explaining.. "Why I don't have a father?" "Or why is mommy crying today?"

They are the ones that feel and suffer the emotional turmoil...

I wish more than anything, that the adults in these situation..can really see what it does to a child self esteem.

Everyday... I witness something that the OC is feeling...or hurting. I witness my children..see their 1/2 brother... confuse..and sometimes wonder why he's different and why some make fuss over him? and not the others?

Its ongoing and its constant..a balance and check..type of sitution. There are some things..I can only damage control..and some things that are out of my reach.

For eg. The OC mother is always bad mouthing me or my H around this child.

Do you think that hurts me? She can call me all the rotten names she wants... and there isn't one thing I can do about that. But she keeps on-going..and hurts this child everytime. I can always tell when he comes back from visit with his mom. My heart breaks for him.. he's the sweetest thing ever... I feel sad I can't protect him like I should.

wiz

<small>[ October 16, 2004, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: wizard ]</small>

Wiz I agree with what your saying. God knows all to well that I don't ever want my kids to be in my shoes. Thank God (my twins dad) knows better than to ever bad mouth me.....(which he would not do anyway) but he pretty much goes along with what I want for the kids. My kids have already started asking questions, and they are only 6 so I have to be careful what I say. They are not old enough to understand, but I'm honest with them (and don't bad mouth the baby's father) with what they can understand. When they are old enough to understand they will know the whole truth. All I can do is pray they learn from my mistakes, and DON'T follow through my footsteps on that part.