You ladies have come from another Board and another perspective. Might I ask why you are posting on this Board. Granted, I gather you have apparently "saved your marriages", but you haven't walked in the shoes of those here.
Dealing with an infidelity followed by the birth of a child as a result of the infidelity is not an experience that one can assume what it is like to recover from.
Since I don't believe you ladies have OC, you don't have a true perspective here. Starfish you say you are an OC, I would think your view is from a totally different angle.
I have yet to see what purpose you propose to serve here. I have, in the posts of yours I have read, detected a lot of condenscion from you.
WE are trying to heal our relationships, but with that comes a lot of venting, this is where we vent. It is better to vent here than blast our spouses with whom we are trying to start over.
I have run over, but I am curious as to what you are doing her. I don't see that anyone authorised you to be a moderator. I checked before I posted, you are not a current moderator for this Board. I am not sure you are a positive influence.

Texasgirl

I couldn't have said it better...

ent

Texasgirl,

There are some really dedicated veterans on the MB forum who donate their time and effort <over years> to help people rebuild their marriages. When I spoke to Steve Harley at the Smart Marriage Conference this past summer...he mentioned how valuable we are to this forum.

The idea that you have to experience something firsthand to be able to help people recover from it...would sure hamper every board on MB if that were true....it would also hamper every branch of marital and individual therapy of any kind if all therapists had to experience everything they helped people with...it would hamper even Dr.Harley since I'm certain he doesn't have an OC either.

I see that you have posted on this board, the GQII board and the Divorced board....most people here do post on many boards....especially the older members like Pep and I. I've been on MB for years...and have been on every board in this forum. You have 393 posts...I have over 10,000...so I've been around the block here a few times...consequently, when the occasional post like this pops up...I don't take offense because I know what I contribute to MB.

What is this "other" perspective you're talking about? What do you think my perspective is?

editted to add:

I didn't say anything about "venting"...not sure where you got this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Oh and just so you know....the moderators don't post under their mod names...they all have other names for regular posting. I'm not saying I'm a mod...only that you have no way of knowing which posters are mods on MB...that's just the way the administrators set it up so they could be anonymous.

<small>[ October 26, 2004, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Texasgirl:
Dealing with an infidelity followed by the birth of a child as a result of the infidelity is not an experience that one can assume what it is like to recover from.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Harley, the founder of this site, has not personally experienced infidelity (as far as we know) nor an OC situation. Harley is a renound expert in the field of marriage relationships. That is why this board exists. The relationship skills that this site promotes can be practiced across all the boards. The pregnancy complication of an infidelity does not make that particular infidelity an exception to the basic policies. The pregnancy complication is an added stressor to recovery, but does not change the basic relationship skills required for a successful marriage.... as you can see when you go to this link:

The basic policies

After these basic policies are studied, and then applied to the marriages damaged by infidelity, those marriages have a greater chance for success.

Star*fish and I (and others) are concerned by a lack of knowledge of these basic policies as demonstrated by many of the discussions on this board.

Not every discussion has to be about these policies, of course. But these policies are the basic building blocks of a good marriage. With or without OC ... it doesn't change.

Star*fish and I desire to see all the marriages here on this board (and the other boards as well) thrive. Visualize this, married couples falling deeply back in love with each other.... now that is a goal all of us share.

The OC issues (and all that jazz) are much more likely to be resolved to the satisfaction of the husband and the wife after the couple has fallen back in love, and trust issues have been resolved.

Pep

Peggy Vaughn, who wrote the "Monogamy Myth" as well as countless other books and is the force behind "Dear Peggy" is one of the most well respected marriage therapists in this country. She has this to say about affairs that result in the birth of children.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This situation happens more often than anyone likes to admit. The child, of course, is an innocent party in this whole experience; however, since their presence serves as an ongoing reminder of the affair, this can understandably making it more difficult to recover. Actually, trying to expand the considerations to include thinking of what's "best for the child" can sometimes lift people out of a very narrow focus only on their own personal pain. Also, a joint effort by the husband and wife in trying to deal with this enormous challenge can serve to draw them together.

This is a very complicated situation (regardless of whether it's the husband or the wife who has a child from an affair). However, when it's the wife, there is an inevitable acceptance of the child into the family if the couple stay married (which, again, happens more often than people think). And concern for the well-being of the child often becomes the "glue" that holds the couple together in their effort to recover and rebuild.

If it's the husband who has a child from an affair, there are many more possible options of what may happen. I've heard from people who have dealt with this issue in a number of different ways. For most, the attitude was to try to deal with the third party and child similar to the way they would deal with an ex and a child from a former marriage. For some, they were unable to accommodate this situation and tried to "force" a choice. For some wives, the child was the "last straw" (so to speak) and they were unable to find a way to resolve the issues surrounding the child, so decided to end the marriage. But on the other end of the spectrum, one husband and wife even took the child from the affair to raise (after the other woman didn't want the child once she didn't get the husband).

If ever there were a situation for which there is no ideal solution, this is it. It may help to realize that with really complex situations like this there are no clear/easy answers—and nothing about this whole ordeal is black and white or written in stone. Since any "solution" is difficult because it's so complicated, each person who faces this dilemma needs to make their own decision based on all the factors involved in their particular situation. And since they are the ones who must live with the consequences of the decision, no one else can tell them what to do.

There will be better times and worse times; but at any given moment, we do well to simply do the best we can at that time, knowing that things may be better/easier at some point in the future. The bottom line is to realize that there is no simple advice as to how to handle it; it's an ongoing process of continuing to think as clearly as possible about all the complicated factors.

And there's certainly no simple advice as to how to recover; however, the most critical element in the recovery may be the degree to which the husband and wife can make a joint effort to face this challenge together and shift their focus to the future rather than dwelling on the past. This doesn't mean ignoring or denying the reality of what has happened. It just means following the guidelines that are generally helpful in recovery.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This last paragraph about the most "critical element" being the joint effort a husband and wife make is precisely the reason that it's important on this board to address the skills and marital concepts necessary to achieve this. The "guidelines that are generally helpful in recovery" are the same guidelines that are taught on this site. Those are things that veterans like ones we have here...are willing to share and build with the members who are struggling.

Somewhere you got the idea that I don't think the folks here should "vent"...and I'm not really sure where that came from...but perhaps it was because I talked about "drama". By drama I don't mean venting. There is quite naturally alot of emotional drama that is associated with this issue and "venting", sharing etc. are a natural part of coming to terms with those things. It's very easy to get caught up in the arguments that abound on the board between OW/BW, or focus on the OC to the exception of the marriage. When that happens, the joint effort Peggy talks about suffers greatly because the core issues that created this situation are not addressed. My purpose here...since you asked...is to help the folks re-establish the bonds between man and wife...so that the issues of OW/OC can be better dealt with as a team. These are polarizing situations that cause deep rifts between partners. The marriage was already vulnerable long before there was a pregnancy...so unless those issues are tackled...the marriage remains at risk even if it survives the birth of an unexpected child.

I suspect that the presence of folks from TOW here complicates the ability of BSs to concentrate on the underlying issues that will help them recover, because it keeps discussions centered around the affair and the child rather than the union of husband and wife. The discussions too often turn into disrespectful arguments that prevent the time and energy that could be used to make the concepts for recovery work for the people who are struggling to rebuild their marriages.

There is much that BW and OW can learn from each other....but timing is an essential element of that equation. When some BWs are ready to hear the other side...others are just arriving who vehemently reject being exposed to those ideas when they are hurting most. Since it's always an option to go to gloryb and get insight into the other side of this issue....I still believe that this board should be a santuary for BWs in every stage of their healing...it must protect all of the folks from the ones hurting the most..to the ones healing the most or on some level it has failed to protect it's members.

Saying that the board needs to refocus on the concepts...is not a criticism of the ladies here. It doesn't mean anyone has failed or that the way folks are dealing with this issue is wrong. It's all about making this board function as it was designed to function. This board's primary purpose is and always will be to help people rebuild their marriages as they face the challenge of and affair that has resulted in pregnancy. When that stops happening...it just becomes a place to vent...not a place to heal. And while venting offers some benefit...rebuilding marriages isn't really one of them. Venting is most beneficial when it leads to strategies that creat solutions...like the POJA.

I'm glad you're both here, and I hope you stick around. I've been dropping round-about hints for months about how the P/C forum needs some of the vets, (who are well versed in the basic concepts), to drop by more often.

IMO, It's okay to use this forum to vent and rant if needed, but when we begin to pass the kleenex, provide shoulders to cry on, or give high-fives, and pats on the back, MORE OFTEN than offering solid M recovery advice, I think we are doing one another a disservice.

As far as the notion that one should be a BW w/ OC in order to best assist the BW w/ OC here, is silly to me. Pep stole my thunder on the Dr. Harley illustration. Look how many marriages he and his children have been instrumental in saving, without personally experiencing what their patients have been through.

The woman on here who has most helped me through my situation does happen to be someone who previously wore my WW shoes, (she also wore BW shoes though). She has a wonderful way of presenting the concepts of M recovery all the while providing her strong shoulders to cry on. However, there was someone else I credit with turning me around and that was a man who has never cheated on his wife, never been cheated on, and of course does not have an OC. (No chance he'd ever fit in my shoes) He gave me incredible insight regarding my H. He held me accountable when I made mistakes during the first weeks and months of recovery. I had hurt feelings after reading some of his posts to me. But you know what? He spoke the truth. His words were not meant to hurt, but to help guide me back onto the right track. My point is, he helps all sorts of people with all sorts of labels, but for whatever reason, he seems to do the most good for WW's even though he's never been one--never can be one.

IMO, when I need help--I ain't gonna be picky. For one thing, I can't be--I'm in the minority here, if I waited around for ONLY FWW's to post to me, I wouldn't get a whole lot of responses. More importantly, I don't care what label a poster does or does not wear, I just want good solid advice--something I can sink my teeth into, something I can use.

~ad

I agree with Pep, Star*fish, and Aut! This board, of late, has turned into one vent fest after another! You know, when I first arrived here, I was bombarded with the MB principles, support in using those principles, and support on the REALLY tough issues, as Abbi hadn't been born yet! I had, at first, felt like an outsider, but once their advice and support sunk in, I became more and more comfortable. Well, now most of those no longer post here, and many don't because of the feel of the board! When I see a new poster, included in my questions are if they've recieved counseling, read anywhere else on the board(concepts, Q&A, etc). THOSE, I feel, are the most important questions if you are to help a M heal.

To question two posters who have been around the block, and grown from it, and wish to help others, just because they may not or may have an OC is wrong. I have sat back and quietly applauded Pep for her recent posts! She is on the mark when she asks someone about WHAT they are doing to rebuild their M's! Now, please don't take this as an attack, as I know that you won't, Lynng, but many times, even though your advice is excellent, it's pulling away from the M building. Yes, with the advice you give, you are helping many protect the M assets and such, but many of the posts, to me, don't coincide with the principles here. Then that opens up for the massive vent fests that begin.

I, personally, would like to see the principles discussed at least an equal amount with the other types of posts! Venting is all well and good, it even helps to keep from love busting at home, as you can get it out here, but when those threads end up being 4+ pages and those threads that ARE discussing the principles end up getting lost, cause too many people are into bashing, venting, complaining, you name it, are what's keeping people from being able to heal their M's! It takes away from WHAT this board is truly for!

It's been said many times in the 4 years that I've been posting here, but if you don't like the advice you recieve, then don't take it, it's free anyway. In the same sense, if you don't like what someone says, especially if it's not directed at you, don't reply! That's how these threads just take off and waste space here! I would LOVE to see things get back to helping others HEAL, whether that's through being able to save their M, or support for the BS, who HAS tried the concepts, and it just won't work, get through that damage! You know, I really appreciate all the hard work that the Harley's have done to get this site up for those of us who have been affected by infidelity, regardless of the outcome(OC, D, whatever)! SO many times the concepts and principles are taken out of context, and when that's done, they won't ever work! Let's get back to what this board was made for, rebuilding M's and supporting those who are working toward that end, instead of questioning anyone that we AREN'T familiar with!

If you are here to rebuild your M or support others to that end using the MB concepts and principles, then welcome! But, if you are here JUST to vent or attack other's just because they don't do things "your way", then please refrain from posting. It doesn't help anyone and just takes up space here that could be used in a MUCH better way.

There is a time and place for everything, but this place is for HEALING damage done by infidelity to a M. I truly feel that we should concentrate on that more so than the venting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">if I waited around for ONLY FWW's to post to me, I wouldn't get a whole lot of responses. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How terrible would it be if the responses were "let's compare OM...and see if you miss yours more that I do mine"! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Yep...that was happening on another board for awhile. I thought I had stumbled into a room on another forum...one known for that.

Texasgirl,

I find it absurd that someone would actually tell another person that they had NOTHING to offer because they haven't walked in their shoes.

The solution is our Marriage Builders® Forum. Here you have an opportunity to ask questions, and receive answers, not from me or my staff, but from other visitors who have learned my concepts and want to support you in your effort to improve your marriage

Those are Dr Harley's words. Now, where does it say that posters who have dealt with an OC can be the only ones to respond to the people that are dealing with an OC.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have run over, but I am curious as to what you are doing her. I don't see that anyone authorised you to be a moderator. I checked before I posted, you are not a current moderator for this Board. I am not sure you are a positive influence.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What did she need...an invitation from you? This is a PUBLIC board...it isn't controlled by some small faction of people that have dealings with an OC. What does moderator status have to do with anything...I am under the impression that the moderators help diffuse situations where TOS are not being met...and where people get off the MARRIAGEBUILDING track. I do not think that they steer people back on the " DEALING WITH OC" track.

AND, the not being a positive influence comment...she isn't a positive influence to the people who don't want to deal with their MARRIAGE issues. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

She and Pepperband BOTH think that the marriage comes FIRST...then dealing with the OC issue can be worked on...once the marriage is a safe place again. It's not like they are putting the cart before the horse. There is a natural order of things...and since this is a MARRIAGE building site...it stands to reason that the MARRIAGE issues need to be dealt with first.

That being said...I think that if as much attention and time were invested in the marriage...instead of the OC issue...there would be a lot less "venting" on the board. Unless, the issue of the OC is the thing that binds them...like Pepperband's "headache" story.

JMHO
committed

<small>[ October 26, 2004, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How terrible would it be if the responses were "let's compare OM...and see if you miss yours more that I do mine"!*eek* </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">cali~

Excellent point/analogy! All the "labels" have been known to go where it's not constructive to go, from time to time. When done, it only serves as a sidetrack and roadblock to M recovery.

Tig~

Yous my hero! Where'd you get so smart? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Starfish and Pep,

I want both of you ladies to know I highly appreciate your insight and concern. I have learned much from you both. I have not broke free from my abusive relationship yet. I am sure I will soon do what I need to do. I am waiting till he crosses my line again and then I plan to take action. I do not want to involve the police with him even though I have been advised to because involving the police escalates the violence every time. I am going to Domestic Violence Meetings. All the women there were experiencing cheating from thier men as well as emotional abuse and or physical abuse. I think cheating is a form of emotional abuse from these types of men. Even though you do not have OC, their are other issues women here are dealing with that you can step in and help because of your experience in general. I always welcome help from both of you.

Genia~

You are such a kind, sweet soul. I worry more about you than any other poster here on P/C. Please, please Genia, don't wait for him to cross your line, or I'm so afraid it may be too late as far as your safety goes. I'm not trying to be an alarmist, or dramatic, but you've described too many things to cause very real concern.

I'm glad to see you back posting, I've missed you.

Warmest regards,
~ad

Hello,

someone asked me to pop over here and help out. i have not seen the posts that prompted this topic. honestly, i'm not 100% sure why i was asked to check this post out...

(if the person that asked me to do so would like to explain this to me in the same manner that she originally asked me to come read this post, that might help <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

i'm guessing one or more people are having a hard time with pep's and star's posts. i will say, pep has helped me emensly, some of her posts ARE hard to read at times, but if i read them carefully and strive to grow and open myself up to their message, it generally turns out being extremely helpful. (star, i don't think you have posted to me directly much, although i have seen your name, well how can i not, over 10,000!!!!!)

anyway, i would like to say this. The stuff we are dealing with here is VERY HARD!!! but i believe EVERYONE is here to offer help and because they care. the advice i give, especially for FWWs that feel like they are getting bashed, is:

as you read, always remember your goal which, i assume, is a healthier and happier marriage. don't be afraid to read those tough posts and grow by really trying to process the message. i believe it is the tougher posts that we need to hear the most, that is why they are tougher on us to read <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> always read with the belief that the person on the other end wants to help you. isolate the message they are trying to give you from the method they have used, if the method is too harsh for you, but by all means, DON'T discard the message!!!

this place has done wonders for me personally, it is too soon to say about my marriage but i can honestly say, posting here, learning here, even from the harsher posts, has given my marriage a fighting chance for recovery.

i very much thank pep for her help. and i'm sure if star and i had more interaction with each other, i'ld feel the same about her too!!!! 10,000+ posts, WOW!!!

Well ladies, I stand corrected. Welcome Starfish and Pepperband. I have read other posts by Pepperband and thought WOW!.
I have may not have posted a lot, but I have been around this Board for 5 years I think. I don't post much as you noted.
I am the first to admit, I am not an expert, but I have survived my H"s affair and OC situation.
All I want is for this Board to be here for those who are going thru the pain of an Affair and dealing with the problems of OW with OC.
If you bring help to others in pain, then bring it on.
If you can manage the troll patrol, then go for it.
Of course as was pointed out, you don't need an invite to be here, and I don't control the Board.
I was just concerned.
You resolved it. If I sounded hostile, I wasn't, just concerned.
I have seen many come and go, most have made their lives better.

Thanks, Texasgirl

<small>[ October 27, 2004, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Texasgirl ]</small>

ok wait a minute--if everyone has been properly validated and such-can I just interject something?

WEll, as most of you know, I will whether you want me to or not. LOL

If you want the board to be a certain way then POSt a certain way!

If you want the board to be @ some place it was before then post how you were before.

Obviously some posters might be too new or fresh in thier shock to focus much on MB UNLESS someone GENTLY guides them to it. You can't just tell them to do it.

OR get upset w/ the tide of the board if you aren't willing to swim in it. Right?

I mean how often do we hear that posters LEFT the board becuase it wasn't what they wanted----well by leaving they DEFINATELY made it something they didn't want. kwim?

If you want posters whose threads are led by MB principles then you need to be a poster whose threads lead to MB principles right? But if you are silent then you let the inmates run the asylum.

You can't say you want the board to be a certain way then either 1)not contribute to it being that way or 2)contribute to threads that are NOT leading that way.

I remember when I first came here it was very clear if a post was OT or just a rant because the poster put it into their title. SO when you read the title..you knew what it would be about or not be about.

So what's the big deal?
I'll repeat what I said on my STOW thread: Don't feed the monster if you don't want it to grow (well that's kinda paraphrased now)..but you get the idea.

If someone needs to rant-ok why are you gonna agitate them in a ranting thread about why their not working on their marriage? The fact that it's a rant post is the answer in itself.

********
************
**************
There are many times when a human needs to rant & rave about the junk in order to get to their very real ROOT issue......when they can trust you w/ the junk....then they will trust you w/ their heart.

Does this make sense to ANYONE?

Let's stop having these 'discussions' as to what we want the board to be blah blah blah & just start MAKING it what we want it to be.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
kt

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you want posters whose threads are led by MB principles then you need to be a poster whose threads lead to MB principles right </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No Problem....it shall be done. I think my last post on Gwenie's thread is an example of conceptual advise. You can expect more of that chere. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Again, there's a huge difference between "venting" and drama. Venting can be very healthy and cleansing as long as you do don't get too comfortable there. Drama is getting "stuck" in the venting phase for too long...getting wrapped up in the goings on of the OW/OC rather than the marriage and family. Drama on the board is posting designed to create conflict, get a "rise" outta folks. There have been some excellent threads on other boards about the pros and cons of venting....I'll see if I can link some of them.

oh...and you're feeding that troll...there is nothing a troll likes better than their name in lights! The only thing that stops trolling is complete and utter disregard...anything else creates more drama.

LOL--you're right-stepped right into that one. Going against my own advice even.

I guess I was thinking...just in case I was wrong..but I doubt it....

do you think I should just delete it?