</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ktbunch:
<strong> But WHY then does SHE have the right to FORCE a man to accept this pg & now obligate him to the child until adult hood?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because HE GOT HER PREGNANT.

She didn't do it by herself.

Here's what I don't understand.

OW says "He promised to be a father to our child...he wanted our child."

This is coming from a man who is lying to, and betraying, his wife.

What makes the OW think SHE is getting the truth from him?!?!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

CLO:
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

oh puleeze!

They BOTH agreed to have SEX.

Then ONLY SHE decides to have, keep, abort, adopt or abandon baby.

He has NO choice in THAT matter (existance of a child)....is what we are pointing out.

Dont' worry, Clo,the laws are in place, doesn't look like they will be changing anytime soon.

We can still point out how unfair it is.

SO like I said on the other thread but I should add to it: (about teaching our sons)

....come closer to mama so I can.... SLAP you upside the head, TRUST NO WOMAN....come closer to mama so I can SLAP you upside the head--I TOLD YOU TO TRUST NO WOMAN! come closer to mama so I can ...SLAP you upside the head..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

xoxo
kt

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

Gardenbunny,
Let's turn the pages:
Why do you believe him when he says he's not cheating on you. He really did work late. It really was a wrong number that called. She's just a friend and nothing more. And when you do find out he tells you he doesn't love her. That it was only a one night stand. That he slipped and his penis fell into her vagina. It was alcohol. She seduced him. She chased him. She trapped him. She lied about birth control. But most importantly, that she meant nothing to him. It happened once and only once and he'll never do it again.

You believe him, right?

Because you have faith that this person you love is being honest.

So why can't you understand why we believed xMM at one point in our lives too?

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: CheerfulLittleOne ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ktbunch:
<strong>
He has NO choice in THAT matter (existance of a child)....is what we are pointing out.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure they did KT.

I gave my xMM the choice and I can't imagine that I'm the only woman that gave MM an option.

We have been through this CIRCLE before CLO.

WE believe UNTIL we are given a reason NOT too.

ANY & ALL OW KNOW already & have reason NOT to trust MM because they ALREADY know he is lying to his W about being/not being w/ THEM!(OW) duh!

A marraige IMPLIES faithfulness.

An AFFAIR implies, lying & cheating.
What part do you NOT understand?
******************
*****************
CLO---------OKAY, I have read yourstory earlier, I can see how you THOUGHT MM marriage was going to be over AND he lied about that whole asectomy thing (alhtough there is still a failure rate for a reason).

BUT you knew that technically he WAS ACTUALLY & LEGALLY still married.


kt

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CheerfulLittleOne:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ktbunch:
<strong>
He has NO choice in THAT matter (existance of a child)....is what we are pointing out.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure they did KT.

I gave my xMM the choice and I can't imagine that I'm the only woman that gave MM an option. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LEGALLY, a male has NO choice.

He can say what he would prefer but you & I BOTH know that it really doesn't matter.

Maybe he gets lucky w/ a 'hail mary' play & the female will AGREE w/ his preferance.....but really it is ALL up to the female.

Do you think that when an active OW announces she is pg & the MM says......I don't want to be w/ you forever, I never planned on being a family w/ you (however nice or CRUEL the actual dialogue that happens i), the OW says, oh ok, I will just abort then <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

I DON'T THINK sooooooooooo! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

And I will bet that the crueler the DUMP----the more sure OW gets that she WANTS this baby.

xoxoxox
kt

CLO, I visited my OW for a week-end in another state.

I have to conclude that insinuations are not promises.

ember

I have an Aunt who has been legally married for 22 years yet she has not seen the man in 19 years.

My parent's D took two years.


Every other man in the dating scene is in the middle of D.


When someone says they are going to college, I assume they are going to college.
When someone says they are going to be running late, I assume they will be running late.
When someone says they are going file a restraining order against someone, I assume they are going to do it.

Why go around claiming you're in the process of divorcing if you're not going to divorce???

That would be a WE ARE HAVING TROUBLE AND WE MIGHT END UP DIVORCING, or a WE ARE SEPARATED RIGHT NOW AND NOT SURE IF WE"RE DIVORCING.

Not WE ARE DIVORCING RIGHT NOW


Do you see the difference????

Do you see the difference between:

I am SINGLE & AVAILABLE and
I am in 'the process of being single' & available

or here's a better one:
I AM PREGNANT and
I AM IN THE PROCESS OF GETTING PREGNANT

SEE........one IS & one is NOT.

Can you see the difference now?

xoxo
kt

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ktbunch:
<strong> the OW says, oh ok, I will just abort then <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

I DON'T THINK sooooooooooo! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How about a "You told me you were sterile, I am not willing to be a single parent again, abortion is an option."

"No, I want this baby and I will be there for you and help you raise it."


KT,
I have talked to several women in my situation and so many of them have aborted on behalf of MM's wishes. Some OW's give the child up for adoption. Some OW's give the child to MM and W to raise.

We are not all the nasty "man trappers" you'd like to think we are.

KT, I see what your saying. I see how you see it. We will never ever agree on why a man should pay cs. It's just a fact. I don't think that a man is an A**dad just because of nc. It takes other factors into it. One small thing though KT, when (and I'm talking my situation....)I was with xmm (yes Yes I know he belonged to someone else) it was long term. We had discussed if I got pregnant. He asked me point blank......will you abort.......I answered him point blank NO. He said then what??? I said I guess we're having a baby. Now I really did not take it personally cause I could not get pregnant without expensive drugs and treatment. My twins were concieved on Feb.14th, 1998 in a doctors office. I spent that night in bed alone with a water bottle and watch a movie with husband. He oredered food out. Anyway back to my point, we had a relationship no matter how you look at it. Right wrong or indifferent. He knew as well as I knew. I did not trap him...and when it did happen I did not hold him to be there emotional. He told me he would help support the baby and that was it. I said fine. You can't force anyone. It's just the way it is. I can't figure out why it's okay for someone to drop off a baby like that. I don't look at it highly....but it is better than a dumpster. I don't agree with a man not being in a child's life and I have said it. I don't understand your questions regarding that, but I've tried to answer you as best as I can. I think the same of all the adults in the situation. Okay let me ask you this!!!!! Let's turn the table a bit. Let's say a man chooses nc for a few years to rebuild his marriage.....and then either he gets a divorce or the wife and him say okay we want to see this child now....and now I have to hand over my child to perfect strangers at there will and they come in and out of there life as they please and there is not a darn thing I do about it. Is that fair? So there are examples all over the place that we could go on and on about and we will probally never agree on it. Your ow is the way she is because that is who she is. Not because she is ow. You are and I am who we are because of who we are and not do to our titles. KWIM? Personally I'd say after this conversation who is affected the most are our children and us adults have done it to them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CheerfulLittleOne:
<strong> We are not all the nasty "man trappers" you'd like to think we are. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NOT what I think @ all.

Especially since my H was NEVER trapped.

I already told you, in a previus post, I understand YOUR situation as you have stated it.

And to be fair, our view may be skewed since we are ON a board dealing w/ OC that are BORN, not too many here w/ aborted OC.

Personally, I do not know ANY BW w/ OC IRL (oh wait, one but the MM killed himself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ), but she is not a close friend or anything )& only ONE FOW IRL.

So.......I can only speak from what I 'hear', I guess as you speak from waht YOU 'hear'.

xoxox
kt

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CheerfulLittleOne:
<strong> I have an Aunt who has been legally married for 22 years yet she has not seen the man in 19 years.

My parent's D took two years.


Every other man in the dating scene is in the middle of D.


When someone says they are going to college, I assume they are going to college.
When someone says they are going to be running late, I assume they will be running late.
When someone says they are going file a restraining order against someone, I assume they are going to do it.

Why go around claiming you're in the process of divorcing if you're not going to divorce???

That would be a WE ARE HAVING TROUBLE AND WE MIGHT END UP DIVORCING, or a WE ARE SEPARATED RIGHT NOW AND NOT SURE IF WE"RE DIVORCING.

Not WE ARE DIVORCING RIGHT NOW


Do you see the difference???? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm still legally married. We have stayed married although seperated for 3 years because he has cheap insurance with great benifits and I have nerve damage and can't get insurance. Also I've given up one pension do to me for him giving me the insurance like this. He also benifits with our taxes as well. And he does not have to pay me the other pension now until we do start divorce preceddings or i retire which ever comes first. It works for both of us. He has a girlfriend and I've dated but nothing serious since xmm (I'm scared to have sex again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ). But right now it's working. I don't have any problems with his gf.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by needtomoveon:
<strong> Okay let me ask you this!!!!! Let's turn the table a bit. Let's say a man chooses nc for a few years to rebuild his marriage.....and then either he gets a divorce or the wife and him say okay we want to see this child now....and now I have to hand over my child to perfect strangers at there will and they come in and out of there life as they please and there is not a darn thing I do about it. Is that fair? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THAT was us. WE are those 'JERKS'. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> (minus the divorce part of course)

Is it fair that an OW chooses NC & wants 'nothing' then years later, out of the blue sues for CS? That was OUR OW, but WE are the 'jerks' because; CS is the child's right but not as much as a father's right to see his child w/o craziness from OW.

IF an OW (or any woman) does NOT want that kind of future situation for herself & her child, she can take immediate LEGAL steps to avoid that (ie: termination of parental rights) as soon as the baby is born & it has been made clear that there will be NC by the father. Of course, that does not usually include termination of financial responsibilities.


Yes, I agree to disagree on some things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

xoxoxo
kt

NTMO...IN answer to your question about 100 pages ago!! My husband had a choice. If he wanted contact with the oc, he could. BUT, he would be single doing it. I chose not to deal with ow/oc. I discussed all of this with other BW and they told me their stories. I chose to protect my children from the sins of the father. He would have had contact with his oc and he could have had ample visitation with our children. Heck, he could have arranged to have them on the same weekends, etc. HE CHOSE NOT TO HAVE CONTACT. He did not want a divorce. He did not want his daughter hurt or humiliated by his MISTAKE.

CLO--You blame everything on the MM. Then you assume it must be his wife who wants no contact. WRONG. HE DOES NOT WANT CONTACT cause he wants to protect and to care for his family who has been hurt by his actions. YOU CHOSE for your child to be fatherless. Even if he was separated for 100 years, he would still be married.

You say all children have a right to know their fathers. That is simply stupid. What about all the kids who are adopted? Are they supposed to spend their time obsessing about this? Or should they live their lives? MY children also have rights, and if they infringe upon the oc, well, so be it. They did not create this situation. Why should they be expected to pay the price?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ktbunch:
<strong> We have been through this CIRCLE before CLO.

WE believe UNTIL we are given a reason NOT too.

ANY & ALL OW KNOW already & have reason NOT to trust MM because they ALREADY know he is lying to his W about being/not being w/ THEM!(OW) duh!

A marraige IMPLIES faithfulness.

An AFFAIR implies, lying & cheating.
What part do you NOT understand? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Amen!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CheerfulLittleOne:

I do, in my heart, feel that xMM's W is the reason behind NC because he was so adament about being a father. Regardless, the ultimate decision is his.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh LynnG.

For ONCE I wish you'd thoroughly read my posts before responding. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />


And I believe Marysway posted the Childs' Bill of Rights link.

Whether you agree with it or not, it still exists.

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: CheerfulLittleOne ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LynnG:
<strong> YOU CHOSE for your child to be fatherless. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wrong. I chose abortion over a fatherless child.

xMM chose to be a father and so I chose to be a mother and we agreed together to co-parent. Then he chose to be an absent father AFTER the fact.

CLO----SIGH!!!!!

But where do you blame yourself for the situation you find your child in? It makes no difference what he said (except the whole vasectomy thing, what a jerk). Until the ink on the divorce papers are dry, he was not available. He told you he would help parent then ran? That is sad, but it is almost a formula of MM behavior too. Sorta like "my wife doesn't understand me" or "I am staying for the kids" or "we haven't had sex in years." Really, had you protected your body from pregnancy and waited until he divorced, you wouldn't have a problem. As women, and lord knows I have taught my daughter this too, protect your body. Keep it healthy, keep it strong, but above all take responsibility for what goes into it. And I am talking smoking, drugs, and sex. Can't be a junkie if you don't do drugs. Won't be a fat blob if you exercise and eat right. Can't get STD's if you don't have sex. etc. Now it is more like, if you are in a committed relationship, do not trust the condom alone, make sure you are protecting your body from an unwanted pregnancy AND disease. Wasn't this all Health 101? Heck I am in my 40's and remember the whole birth control, STD lectures from school. But, the vasectomy lie was a low one. What a jerk.

NTMO---you bring up an interesting scenario. What if the couple divorces and the father wants to see the child. HMMMM. That would be an entirely different situation then a little tyke. I guess, if that father wants to come back into oc life it would have to be handled quite differently then if oc was a newborn. THEN I could see where the father would be gradually introduced to the child. Meet up at the park, etc where mom is nearby, stuff like that. But I agree with you, that would be awfully hard on everyone. But, that is what the affair invites into the life of that child. Sad thing is, if he (still married or not), is paying child support and decides he wants to start a relationship, he has that right. Sorta reminds me of KT's situation, in a way. Look how that blew up in everyones face and all the harm to everyone. Affairs are just a destructive cruel event that places so much hurt and angst on the victims...BW/BC/OC etc.