Lots of newbies on the board, I just wanted to get some update feedback on this damn passion subject. I had a discussion with my betrayer wife today. Here are some of the lowlights. <BR>We talked about that "intensity" someone feels when you meet a new love or that you feel about your spouse or significant other. She said, " It's about feeling of being with someone regardless of other stuff. Wanting to be with that person, not because of marriage, a house, a child, or because family and friends approve." She told me she never had that feeling she "wanted" to be with me and during our marriage that feeling just continiued. She reiterated she had to deny she felt that way, to not tear apart the relationship or to face the reality of lacking that feeling. <BR>She also brought up the "exit affair" (my words). She said a couple of people have mentioned to her that it sometimes takes a situation (an affair? or attraction to someone else?) for someone to realize what their marriage was lacking. She admits to not identifying that unhappiness before, and probably needing to deny it.<P>So know my questions and feedback are.. Dr. Harley in his books talks about rekindling that passion after an affair and keeping that <BR>romantic love alive in your marriage in the Needs books. So does any of this really apply if your spouse feels she never felt that intensity and/or passion? My wife still is very adamant about that feeling never going to be there for her towards me. (I of course can not tell her about MB theory and how passion can be cultivated, or can it?) <BR>You know I think for most men, we get involved with women we are attracted to, find physically appealing, and marry the one which matches most of what we are looking for. But for women, can they try to get by without that intensity and later on figure out, no I need that and I married for the wrong reason and wrong guy? Yes, I know passion is only part of the whole package, but obviously I believe even most of the people on this board can honestly say their relationships with spouse was pretty intense in the beginning. I can't, not for my wife. Yes, she loved me but to what level of intensity? Maybe 6 or 7 out of 10. At least I didn't repel her, she could be somewhat physical with me. Anyway just more random thoughts, but I am interested in revisiting this damn subject.

izzy,<BR> Are you talking about my W,again?Did you also get the"I haven't loved you the way a W should love a H?".We were always more like the best of friends than red-hot lovers.I always thought this made for a better marriage because if you're only passionately in love,what do you do the other 23 hours of the day?Our marriage seemed pretty good for a long,long time.Only after her affair,did I get the"not passionately in love with you"speech.But realistically,how many long-term marriages have that level of passion?How long can that last in the real world?How can you deal with someone you supported and cared for 22 years,only to find out what she really wanted is someone to open cardoors for her,give passionate kisses in public,tell her she's the most beautiful woman in the world,and give her constant passionate lovemaking?You're right about the house,the money,the family,and everything else not being important anymore.I have the same questions as you.Why would she ever want to come back to me after she's been with the Fabio-wannabe.I always felt passion and sex were highly over-rated,but apparently she didn't.I guess anybody can start to look pretty boring after 20 years or so.Probably why so many marriages break up at this point.Any other opinions?<BR> --Murph

<B>EXCUSES ARE BORN TO KILL RESPONSIBILITY</B><P>As a betrayer, I will say this... I think your wife did have the intense passion that allowed her to marry you. I think that when we can't live up to something, sometimes we try to find an excuse or a reason to back out. Futhermore, when we are doing what we know isnt right, we try to forget all that our spouses did do right and tend to focus only on the bad. This is not the case for all, ofcourse their are exceptions. Just a mere theory.<P>When your W decide to take responsibility for her actions and get out of her imaginary land, she will be able to see the wonderful man she fell in live with. Hopefully by then she would not have lost you. Stay encouraged and hold on for as long as you can. <P>------------------<BR>"If you can learn from the mistakes of others, you won't have to make them youself."<P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

Jamie, <BR>BTW can you email that JUST BREATH passage you posted on a different thread. Where did you find it? EMAIL-VL83@aol.com. <BR>I really wish I could believe you, but honestly my wife and I had talked about the lower level of her intensity when we started dating. I pursued her, she was on the rebound, and she was afraid of not finding someone "better"? or like me. We have alot of the same values, religion, likes, disposition and so forth, just no strong chemistry. I agree that she married me with some level of love and or passion, but I am positive it's not the redhot level 10 she's feeling with the OM and her strong desire she has for him. If we are to believe that it is a strong pull, strong attraction, irresistable feeling, and addiction then yes it would be hard for her to not rationalize our past away. Yes, she probably to a point has only thought of the negative and the lack of intense feelings, and she does not believe she can build on even some lower level of passion and or intensity. I swear, for women, once they are emotionally somewhere else they ain't coming back.<P>Murph,<BR>I totally agree with you. Sorry to hear there is no good news from your camp. I remember your storyline from back this summer, still not any better I guess. I also thought a marriage built on solid best friendship, some attraction, and solid values and similar interests would be the best. But, that nasty passion issue came up for both of our spouses. I guess only time will tell what it means to them. Yes, beyond the passion where does a marriage work. My wife now wants and feels that the passion has to be a foundation, a base to build the relationship on. She acknowledges that the passion fades, but she feels that is the glue that holds the base and all after that can be worked on. Not sure if I totally disagree with that. I sure would love to have a women feel towards me the way some of these betrayed women on this board seem to be passionate about their husbands. Can't say I ever have felt that intensity from my wife to me, in our almost 4 yrs of marriage. I now have realized marriage skills and behaviors can effect that, but maybe it is now to late to even attempt them in my marriage. Any other thoughts from anyone else..... <BR>Murph,

izzy,<P>I couldn't let this pass without my reply!<P>Steve Harley told me why we fall in love with anybody:<P>We like the way they look, the way they talk, the way they act and the way they treat us. THESE are the reasons you fall in love with someone. Your W obviously liked these things about you in the past and this is the part she could learn to love again, if you provide her those same things she loved about you originally.<P>Passion IS a cornerstone of relationships. It is true that everyone does not have the same drives and libido. But, I also think that many people who are "mismatched" in this area may not realize the importance of sex and passion to their partners. This seems to be really high on your W's list, now that she has experienced something "different" than she had experienced with you previously. This same thing happened to me ...there was a marked difference between the sex and passion of H#1 and H#2. I believe the largest measure of the difference was skill, technique and H#2's (current H) realization that sex was as important for me as for him, and his desire to give me the most fulfilling experience possible. I don't hink H#1 ever got that concept at all...it was just supposed to happen because we were both naked.<P>I think it is very possible for you and your W to improve things in the sex and passion area of your lives, but you would both have to want to identify what is "missing the mark" and work to find what best works for you both. To me, this possibility is evidenced by the growing sexual therapy business.<P>Roll Me Away<BR><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

murph,<BR>any updated info, I'm curious<P>roll me away,<P>Just curious, what led to your first divorce. <BR>If husband #1 ever figured out the way to increase passion with you, could you guys have worked it out? I now understand all the aspects of working on passion and meeting emotional needs. Yes, my wife has found what she was missing. I can bet the OM knows the techniques and what my wife is needing. I know I neglected the changinging needs in my wife (I've met with SHarley also). When we married that need for affection and great sex was not at the top of my wife's needs. In the last year, she even expressed it to me. (around Feb-Apr, she said, "I miss great sex") I was clueless in how to get to that level with her. I know she really needed that intimacy and affection and not just the physical part. But, will she really ever believe it could happen with us (if it never did) and not believe that her passion with the OM is just natural and just happens cuz they have chemistry? It's so easy for them (in her opinion) why go back to someone she never felt that way about?

Jamie --<P>What a great post. It says so much to izzy's question, and all of ours. I wish I could articulate what you say as well to my W!<P>By the way, do you think "passion", as defined by our spouses today, is different than it once was when we married? Most betrayers have the recent experience of a hot and heavy romance -- be it physical or an EA. Could they be redefining "passion" within these new parameters?<P>Just an idea...<P>--keystone

Izzy,<P>The man I married my husband, I had beyond the chart passion for maybe a 15 or better. It was the same for him towards me.<P>I don't think many women marry without it. I doubt that your wife did either. I believe that the memory of that passion she had for you is clouded by the affair and the intensity of what she is feeling toward the other man right now.<P>When one is in an affair it is new, exciting and secret (at least at the start of it) and all of those things bring up intense feelings of passion. Stolen moments! All of that leads to such intense feelings. I imagine even the fear of discovery add to it all. Remember when you first fell in love? Remember how that felt? Well, intensify that. I think that is all it is. Not that it is any small thing. I truly think that any passion your wife had for you is clouded with the memory of time and the affair getting in the way.<P>I also don't think women in general are capable of feeling or allowing themselves to feel "in love" with two people at once. To justify that I think we try and nullify the first (the spouse). That way we can feel better about it in our minds. Don't know if that makes any sense?<P>Don't forget either that the drudgery of everyday living puts a huge dampener on passion.<P>I think you and your wife can rebuild the passion level. Between reading all the posts here from all the women I am sure you can finds tons of way to stir that excitement in her. We women are really simple creatures really, we just want it all! Romance, devotion, love, to be cherished, and the rest of the stuff that goes with it. You continue to fill her love bank and eventually you will make that OM look pale by comparison.<P> <P>------------------<BR><B>God bless you and all of us. We are all going to make it, all of us! With God on our side we can't loose. What God has joined together let no man put asunder. <P>Samantha</B>