This may be long so forgive me. I feel that finding a way to get through all the pain and frustrations and ?s about how to deal with and rectify the situation/problems in each and every situation may vary and differ depending on our own personalities and circumstances.We react and interact according to how we feel at the moment and advice given and life learning. What you did and what I do-justification or excuses or just plain selfishness rule when we confuse the truth and reality of what I feel needs done. When we make a choice as in infidelity or an affair I think we are looking for what we want/need and ignorantly deny trying for. We want our emotional needs met, a fulfillment in life, attention. Never is it right or beneficial to self to act towards another in an intimate relationship by one or both. We have friends,family-loves in our lives but we dont need to sleep with them. People need intimacy. We need fun! And lets face it! men are predators. If you think that your wife or love is not getting offers than your kidding yourself! Hypothetical-A man will go to a car-lot and will look at many to choose from and want. Even after the purchase will look always at others and want to have that one too! -For reasons of boredom or curiosity,excitement,or pride and even spite. We will convince ourselves that I deserve this or you do is bitterness and unfullfilling. So much pain to explore. Truly, wouldn't it be better to recapture the dating,interest,loving,selflessness by giving your time and energy by SHOWING love instead! We are surrounded by sex in tv,mags etc. and passion is wonderful, I wouldn't want to live without it. If you had it then you know where it is so get it and quit making excuses. I'm not saying all can and will forget or forgive but we should and need to. And for some we just can't or won't. Just try and talk and understand and pray,and pray and pray and forgive. It is wrong to cheat and lie. Be set free and find forgiveness and peace or it will never work for you or them. Broken trust can be repaired and its not easy by and stretch. Last thought for now, some of us can't make it right, only to try to make better. Let God help and fix the problem or it will continue. For my part it is not easy and my s still prefers atten. of others as it seems. Wants a D and vacillates. Maybe we won't work, but do you want it to? Then what will you do and how much are you willing to try and How much are you going to hold back and are you truthful! May God bless you and keep you and bring peace to you! David

Hi 3Wishes,<P>Good gracious, you're covering just about all angles on this aren't you...<P>One thing - Paragraphs, my man, paragraphs!!!! Are you trying to make me go blind!! LOL!!<P>You have put a lot of different thoughts and theories down.....but which are yours? What EXACTLY are you feeling? Where is your head about you and NB? Forget all else....what she wants/says, what others do/say.....just what it is that YOU want for your life.<P>Do you want to bounce from relationship to relationship so you can have those initial "in love" highs? Is it too hard to give need fulfillment in return for having your own met? Or just give because it would make someone else feel good and not cuz you "have to"?<P>Or do you want NB to want you more than anything or anyone else - no matter what you do or don't do? Would that be realistic being that she did that and ended up so needy herself that she made a poor choice? And even now, that she seems to have done her best to try to work with you to put things right in the marriage and just wants you to put as much in (which is fair and what a relationship should be 50/50), instead of finally beginning on a new level of love, more aware of what you both can improve for yourselves with communication and the "tools" for a better relationship - you bring another person in between you? What's that about? <P>It comes down to a conscience decision, David - Do you want to grow as a man with a love in your life : A Partner through thick and thin, that you share all of yourself with and live for.....<P>OR - do you want to bounce around receiving that instant gratification, ego stroking, fun and ultimately meaningless and hurtful infatuation love that you don't have to work at and can throw away when it gets to heavy?<P>I know that you are a good guy, you are sensitive and caring and want a place for God in your life also.....you're confused, your hurt and you want all the "bad" to go away....<P>Well, it will if you stand up, pick up a broom and start sweeping out your brain!! Get the cobwebs of the past out of those corners..... DEAL with the problems that began the process of you two turning to others instead of each other. Then leave the past in the past!! Once those old problems are addressed - there will be such a weight lifted you and NB would be free and lighthearted enough to find some fun and an intimacy that you both can have with each other for a lifetime...<P>You are keeping your own storm cloud overhead!!! Both of you, have the power to get through this - if you really want it!! If no positive input comes from you than you get no positive result!!<P>I care about both of you and am so sad that the love you both have is buried under all this rubble.....<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

3wishes -- WOW, what a thread. I think you have some very important questions here.<P>I think I would have to second Sheba's question to you though. Where do you stand on this?<P>I think everyone who has been betrayed has wondered the same things you are asking here. I know I have.<P>You and NB are in my prayers 3wishes.<P>God Bless<p>[This message has been edited by Empty Shell (edited March 05, 2000).]

I'm afraid I'm not well known here by my own account and for some have been given a picture or story if you will of who I am. Not by anyones fault that sides are drawn reflections by one can be misconstued. Clarity comes and peace can be found. Resolve with understanding and forgiveness without selfishness. I think 40 is a good time to evaluate and mature and thank God for delivering me from the foolishness of anger and pain. No excuses,blaming,conflict,accusing will resolve the problems we encounter. Yes I make mistakes and am sorry. Forgiveness if not by one or another then by God to live and have peace. Will we help one another and show love. Will we support and uplift or hurt. To move forward and develope a relationship or counter cont. a distrust. Never is harm a good recourse. I WISH! for love and good to prevail and our actions to help one another. Life is short and I believe there is much to be missed to go blindly along.

In English please!

3wishes -- I don't know if my brain just isn't working very well today or not, but I am afraid that you latest reply doesn't make any sense to me. Would you mind restating for me?<P>God Bless

Good Morning!<P>My H is 3wishes, and I offered to come be an interpreter for this post... he agreed. So, here I am...<P>By way of background: David is a poetic and rather tortured soul... tall, dark and handsome... and deep... very, very deep. We are both betrayed and betrayer, his latest betrayal happening last month. So, in a way, we are beginning all over again.<P>By way of explanation: David feels that I have come here and for lack of a better term, "poisoned" the waters against him. Frankly, I haven't been here for a couple of months, prefering instead the company of a few close friends... I call it hibernation.<P>David has some difficulty explaining his wants and needs without throwing someone else into the mix. When my therapist asked him if he wanted the marriage, he said, "she doesn't"... and therein you have the problem. "I" statements go like this: "I feel that you don't want me" instead of "I feel hurt because you didn't call me after work tonight. It makes me afraid that you don't want me." There is an inherent difficulty for me (and others it would seem by the responses) to understand my H.<P>I am not here for any other purpose than to set the stage for David's musings. <P>And finally, by way of translation: He is hurting by both my betrayal of last year, and his recent betrayal. He is hurting because I finally took a stand (or tried to) and said I wanted a divorce. He is simply hurting, and is describing his pain and confusion.<P>This is my H. <P>~Sheryl<P>

Hi 3Wishes and thanks NB for explaining his writings a little - it makes it easier for people in their trying to help!!<P>3Wishes....I hope that I have not appeared to be one of the "poisoned" in your mind. I certainly realize that their are two people and two points of view and personalities in every circumstance here that have to be explored and aided as much as possible.<P>That is why I am trying to get some information out of you. We want to hear your thoughts, feelings, desires, fears and what is needed to get you and NB to a positive starting point on the road of a renewed existance!! <P>So please, not in philosophical terms - give us some knockdown, dragout, plain-as-the-nose-on-your-face, simple language - pretend we're children...How would you answer questions for them? We are all hurting here, we have brain misfunction half the time and in no way can we grasp how to help you if we have to rely on "thinking so hard" at the onset. Thanks if you would be so kind!<P>The people who offer help and a shoulder here are all out for one thing.....it is not to blame, criticize or choose sides! It is for a couple's marriage to get on a new and correct path which could lead them to a great life together!! We've tried to learn, understand and grow with all the experiences that we have as well as those shared by others..... WE WANT TO SHARE WITH YOU, TOO!!!!<P>Help us to help you......I promise that if you open yourself up and really delve into what is going on inside and what you want exactly - we will help you achieve it!!!! You have to realize though, that we can talk, explain, pat your back or outline a plan till we are blue in the face (or fingers!!) but YOU will have to take the necessary steps to move your life in the direction you want.<P>NB knows what needs to be done....how she acts or attempts to achieve that is first and foremost to work on herself and then to work WITH you!! Wouldn't you like to try to do the same? <P>You both cannot "react" to each other anymore!! It's time to start taking control of your own selves and become two loving individuals again instead of this "ping-pong" atmosphere that is going on!!<P>HUGS, Prayers and Strength to you!! <BR>I will be here for when you answer my questions and we can get going on this exploration of YOU!!! <P>NO POISON, JUST COMPASSION!!!!<P>Sheba

Hello, 3wishes...<BR> I'm fairly new here, and so don't know the whole story {although I see that you both have been both betrayed and betrayer, so I assume it's a bit complicated}. I do want to let you know I am very sorry for your pain.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Maybe we won't work, but do you want it to? Then what will you do and how much are you willing to try ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I do know that if my H had asked me these questions at three different points over the past two months, he could very well have gotten three different answers. Most of the time I am sure I want the marriage, and am willing to work very hard at it. However, there are days I am very tired of doing what seems to me like all the work, and wonder what it is I really want. <P>In your situation, feelings on both sides are bound to be even more complicated. I can understand your wife not being sure she wants the marriage, or is ready to work on it. Maybe you both need to take it slow, and spend some time on rebuilding yourselves, being sure of what you want. In any case, I hope things will go well for you both.<P>You and your wife will be in my prayers--<BR>Kathi<P><BR>

3wishes -- Once again, I must agree with Sheba. Talk to us straight and plain. Nothing pretty and nothing fnacy, just straight talk. If we can help, we will.<P>If you remember, I made a similar offer to both you and NB several months ago. . .<P>If I can help, I will. If you want alittle more privacy, then Email me.<P>God Bless

Hey everyone. Thank you for the responses and prayers. I'll try to make this easier and go on with the scenario thus far. Not too much for now,just a start. Her affair 8 mo. ago had left me in pain I never experienced before-more than I can decribe in just a few sentences,but only adding to the pain was here withdrawals,new men would come into the picture,the statement "I'm not in love with you anymore" only added a severing strain to rbuilding possibilities. Statements like, if you do this and you have to after being devastated didn't work for me. I wanted 50/50. I would be sweet and pleasing and not now,go away or oh brother. Dont talk to me and then she begins flirting. She talks to people in secret and shows no interest in me. I'm cussed at and blamed and called a hypocrite to say the least. All in all it stems from reasons. Needless to count and to what gain? In circles do I run,finding my heart pouding and faint-breathe-just breathe. Finally for this passage,she says D and I go,come back and D and I go. For over and over.I pray and ask and hope until there is no hope. Now when she proves she is not responsible with men as friends I'm told that one has offered to take her away from me and I didnt think I was ever such a bad person and a job and bring the kids hundreds of miles away from me. Bad enough he takes my wife but my kids too, what a good friend! And I was given the impression he is not the only one. So why do I keep trying? I love her! My first girl-first love-first heartbreak! Did I get over her or find her 13 years ago-no. But she does want a D and I'm afraid for the sake of my children and mental health that I must concede. I would like trust and would like it both ways in case some have painted a picture in mind.I'm not sure I can get back here anytime soon as I work 14hr days and have little time to return and more time for tears,I'ts hard to find excuses lately for answers as to whats wrong. Sorry for the length and bitterness that must pour from this. Hope you are all doing better than I am.

I am sorry for all the pain you and your family are going through. I will keep you in my prayers--<BR>Kathi

Just a couple of things, David...<P>One: NOBODY WILL <B>EVER</B> TAKE YOUR KIDS FROM YOU... there is nobody else who is their father, and nobody will ever take your place. They love you, and that will NEVER CHANGE.<P>Two: My friend is JUST THAT. A friend. I was honest when I told you that he offered me a place if I needed it... I didn't go. Remember that.<P>And finally, there is love here. Maybe not the kind that holds a marriage together, but love just the same. I do love you!<P>~Sher

David,<BR>Not all men are predators. Mankind is sinful to include me. I am finding as I get closer to God throught his ordeal that I am much like Paul who found that as he got closer to God he found himself to be more and more worhtless but for the grace of God.<P>I know how you feel. I have gone through my trying to understand. My W has tried to find someone like me that she can control. Most of the OM have been younger than her. The one thing she has found in them that I am capable oof doing because I am sinful is LUST. Yet, I get ill thinking about the pain it would cause her. I don't ever want her to go through what I have gone through.<P>However, I was unsuccessful at her not having to experience this. The OM has another woman pregnant. This crushed her to some degree. I know she is still talking to him but won't admit it. <P>Sheryl, please don't beat up David. He is trying to sort through his emotions. David please be nicer to Sheryl. I have done some of what you are doing in a more indirect manner than you are dong it. It only causes animosity and makes recovering even harder.<P>I feel really bad that I didn't understand what I understand and feel now. I am using this ordeal to teach our boys how to truly love a woman. I am teaching them that abstinence is best until they are married. God said that is the way it is to be if you do His will. No one told me these things when I was a child. I wish that someone had been adult enough to let me know the real deal.<P>I will not fail our boys. If they choose to do otherwise then it will be because it was what they wanted to do. The decisions I made were out of pure ignorance. Though I haven't messed up to badly. I would love to go back and not have sex with my exgirlfriend and my W before marriage. <P>I am not sorry for marrying my W because she still is and always will be God's gift to me. I cherish her more than she will ever know before I die. It is after my death that she will fully understand why I do what I do.<P>You guys hang tough. MONDO HUG to the two of ya!!!!!!!!<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

Three wishes,<BR>WOW!<BR>Seems like I remember seeing your name on here last summer when I first started posting, but I don't think I read many or any of your posts, because if you "talked then" like you "talk" now, I think I would have remembered it. You are very good at "stream of consciousness" thinking. So much so, that I wonder if you fully understand how unusual that is. There are very few people who can listen to, much less, understand that type of communication, as it seems to involve a certain amount of flexibility in the listeners' thinking. If Shar has been able to listen to and understand where you are, and how you feel, then you are one lucky man. If not, then that should be a message to you that there is and alwasy will be a problem in communication between the two of you. It is in your power to solve that problem. You and she both can change in the dance of intimacy that you have been dancing. <BR> <BR>If I am not mistaken, there is a history of affairs on your side of the sheets, then New Beginning had an affair, Upon discovery or revelation, you struggled with forgiveness and gave into an affair of your own instead. Shar wanted to rebuild after you discovered her affair thus the name new beginning. What was your reaction? You started your own affair? Isn't that how the story went? My Goodness, what a dance you have been dancing.<P>3 wishes and New Beginning...<P>Which one of you has been doing the Plan A'ing, when and for how long? Someone has to activly decide, make a conscious choice, that is, to be the giver for a while. Now, let's see..<BR> . 3 wishes had the first affairs, during and after which, NB did not Plan A, perhaps because she didn't know about the technique, therefore no deposits were made in 3 wishes love bank and he in turn made so few deposits in her love bank, that an affair looked attractive to her. Now, facing the discovery of NB's affair, it would follow that 3 wishes should be the plan A'er, however, that was not the case, as more poor decisions were made. So, following 3wishes most recent affair, short lived and retalitory as it was, the PLAN A Ball is back in NB's court but she does not want to play anymore. <P>It seems to me that you two need to stop all this ball bouncing and decide to play on the same side of the fence. Why don't you BOTH Plan A for a couple of months. Nothing but Plan A allowed for either one of you, together in the same house. No bringing up of accusations, blame or LB's. Make appointments with each other to discuss the sensitive issues, but only one of you is allowed to vent, the other mirrors and validates and comforts. Take turns with this. Treat each other at least as well as, if not better than, you do a stranger. Be each other's best friend.<BR>Go beyond Plan A tactics and HAVE AN AFFAIR WITH EACH OTHER, for heaven's sakes. It can be done. Truly. IT CAN BE DONE!!<P><BR>There, was that adament enough. Just thougt you might need a little coaching. Hey, it's worth a try isn't it?. Make some serious deposits now and then later, when you both feel more secure, share your deepest fears, hopes, wishes and dreams with each other. You may find an accepting and unconditionlly loving response where there used to be none. For now, why don't both of you be the givers.<P>OR...<P>Give up and move on...END OF STORY.<P>

I was into work early today,so here I am. Read the responses and want to say a heartfelt thank you. Yes, I had a relationship w 2 women 13 years ago and left them for the urge to commit to my belief in marriage despite any reasons,explanations or faults. This new woman came about during a separation I thought pending divorce and felt so down and hopeless. This doesn't make it right I agree and now I have a woman in love w me who I cast aside as if she deserved to be hurt that way! For the sake of love! What things are possible and how regret is a shadow of mistakes made. Had I not felt such a stirring to sense love and intimacy, would I have felt so lost. ok,now back to plain talk. I hate myself for my failures. If my wife were not so tortured we may have had a chance. I dont know how many times she had said to go, I want a D and lets be friends.Maybe I should let go,but do I have to be happy about it. -professorg- deepest regard for your pain and hopes for a future of promise and happiness to come. -pilotswife- I really dont know all the directoins for plan A, but at this juncture I'm not sure this would remedy the situation and am afraid I've lost touch with most of my desire to press forward in this. I also think she wants this and feel that it may be for the best except in Gods eyes. I thank you for your prayers and wish God to give you peace and comfort. David

I finally have to chime in.....I haven't because I was haveing a hard time reading this. Now I get it...Youi both love each other...but not in the romantic way......you have both hurt each other....David 13 years ago....Sheryl last year.....then David this year.....So friggin what!!!!<P>If there is even a shread of hope in y'alls desperate situation then try Dr.H's principles.....What have you got to lose....another 6 months....that is a drop in lifes bucket......<P>Here's a plan....or the program.....<P>Enact the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>The Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA)</A><BR>Agree to commit no <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A><BR>Practice the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Four Rules for a Successful Marriage</A><BR>Learn to meet eah others <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A><P>Take the LB questionaire and the EN questionaire. Sit down and talk. Without the finger pointing and esoteric BS. Get honest. <BR>If it doesn't work then at least you can say I tried.<P>I wish I were in y'alls shoes, you guys have a chance, you live together and still see each other daily. <P>Will this work? I haven't a clue. Could this work? Yes. You all say you've tried. From what I've seen all you have done is beat around the bush with these principles. Try committing to this for a set amout of time. Keep your resentment and ager away from the other and see what happens.<P>Just my $20.00 worth. <P>I want to see you all a success and you can succeed.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR><p>[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited March 10, 2000).]

Alright Bill!<P>You didn't know it, but you was talking to me too. I needed to hear that speech. Even thou I know these things, sometimes I need a swift kick in the **** to get into action. (see my "update" post)<P>Keo

3wishes,<P>Pardon me for being blunt. Your poetic style is difficult enough to grasp. It is even more difficult by its lack of organization into <B>paragraphs</B>. <P>Please use the enter key more often to separate and better organize your post. We are eager to read and respond to your posts, but you can make it easier to do by making them easier to read. <P>Thanks.

Just a quick note in my H's thread... which has also become a bit of mine too...<P>Rob, Hey there! What you wrote was very thoughtful...Very nice...<P>Pilot's Wife (Beth), You made me cry! I'm gonna think about all you've said...<P>Bill, I'll think on this too...but you already know what I think... but I promise to give it more thought...<P>Keo, Yeah, that Bill guy is pretty smart, huh? Did you read what Pilot's Wife wrote too... very good stuff...<P>2sad, I've told my H how to do the paragraph thing... I think he gets it now...so next time should be better... he is one stubborn man!<P>~Sheryl