Hey all, been a <B>LONG</B> time since I posted anything. Usually I'm just lurkin' around, keeping track of everybody. <P>But anyway, I've got a subject that I'd like to hear some good solid debate on, and that's namely the Emotional Need of Recreational Companionship. Now, I've read His Needs Her Needs and there was alot of stuff that bothered me in there, but the one chapter that bothered me the most was the one on Recreational Companionship.<P>In the book, it says that RC is usually one of the top needs for men. Harley goes on to say that, at the beginning of a relationship, many women will mold themselves so that they appear to like the same things that the man does. Then after they are married, the woman goes back to what they liked before and sometimes they try to change what the guy likes, and the guy gets frustrated because the woman doesn't like what he thought she did. Then whammo -- bad situation! Love Busting, hubby going off to do his own thing, wife doing the same, then possibly affairs happen, etc.<P>One of the things that Harley suggests is for the couple to find something in common that they both like and do that, forgetting what they used to like to do before. In fact, in the book, Harley gives his own marriage as an example. He used to be an avid chess player, but his wife didn't play chess at all. So he just up and quit playing chess so he could spend his recreational time with his wife. He basically recommends that a couple spend ALL their recreational time together.<P>Now while in theory I think this is great, in practice I find it lacking. In my case, and I'm sure in many other people's cases, my recreational interests cannot just be put aside so easily. They are basically a <B>PART</B> of me. I can no more put them aside then I can put aside my nose. <P>So what happens when you actually TRY to put aside things that are basically a part of you for the good of your marriage? Well, I would hazard a guess that a good deal of resentment would build up, regardless of the fact that you may be doing something fun with your spouse. The resentment may take a long time to build, and it may be unnoticable for a while, but it will eventually rear it's ugly head, don't you think?<P>So what's the solution, you ask? Well I don't know really. A couple who present false images to each other at the beginning of a relationship reaps what they sow, IMO. If you ask me, they should've been more honest about their interests and not try to mold themselves (be it man or woman) to what the other person likes. But that doesn't answer the problem of a marriage that is in trouble because of this issue. To that, I have no good answer, and I don't like Harley's answer.<P>What about you folks? Opinions? Agree? Disagree? Comments please! <P>(and btw, I'm not asking for advice on my personal situation, just trying to start a topic and get some discussion going on this subject, since it's bothered me for quite some time)<P>--andy

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>So what happens when you actually TRY to put aside things that are basically a part of you for the good of your marriage? Well, I would hazard a guess that a good deal of resentment would build up, regardless of the fact that you may be doing something fun with your spouse. The resentment may take a long time to build, and it may be unnoticable for a while, but it will eventually rear it's ugly head, don't you think?<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree with you 100%! In fact this is one of the problems with my marriage. I LOVE dancing. My H doesn't like it but will occasionally (VERY occasionally) tolerate it. For nearly 7 years after we got married I didn't push to go out dancing because I knew he didn't like it. And when we did go, it was clear he'd rather not be there (he just sat there, only danced when I literally dragged him to the floor) and that ruined the fun time I could have had. did I resent him for it? You betcha! I have enjoyed dancing since before I could walk. It's a part of me. I've gone back to dancing, even if it means going without him. I can no longer deny that part of who I am. So far my husband hasn't had a problem with it, but it has opened the door for an EA. And now the gap between my husband and myself is wider. <P>Now we have a huge problem. If I stop dancing again, I will feel like I have 'set aside my nose' as you so eloquently put it. If he goes out with me, he will be faking it, and eventually it will slip back to "I'd rather stay home and watch TV."<P>If anyone has a solution for something like this, I'd be glad to hear it. We have gone through a POJA for what we think may be a workable solution but I have my doubts as to whether it will hold out in the long run.<P>Keep in mind that for me, dancing is an emotional need and it's very high on my list. For my H, it's close to being a LoveBuster (selfish demand - "dance with me or else"). Now, what?<P>

Good topic.<P>I believe strongly that recreational companionship is an important need for BOTH sexes, but I think that me meeting my H's needs for RC probably saved my marriage.<P>When you court and date, you do recreational things. Then after a while of being married, you get lazy, other things take priority, and before you know it, you have no interests in common.<P>Unless it's something you absolutely find intolerable to do, I think it's a good idea to TRY to share at least SOME of your spouse's interests. My H likes to take long hikes in the woods early in the morning in summertime -- I mean EARLY. Like 6 AM on weekends. He used to go alone, and I stayed home and slept in. After the Dragon Lady thing, I started getting up early with him and going along. And you know what? It's not so bad. It's not too hot yet (and if it's humid you bring a towel to mop), it's very pretty, and the walk is good for me. We'd go out for breakfast afterwards, and you wouldn't believe what a difference it made to me.<P>Now, does he go out of his way for me on that front? No. Usually I go to the movies alone, because he rarely wants to see what I do, and he's not as good a sport as I am.<P>OTOH, he never complains if I go without him.<P>Now, some might say that I'm giving a lot more than I'm getting on that front. And if you want to keep a scorecard, yes I am. But the thing you can't score on is the change in his attitude towards me on general life. He's more considerate, more affectionate, even more grown-up. So the payoffs are far more than "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours."<P>I don't think a couple needs to be attached at the wrists and ankles. I think women who shlep their husbands SHOPPING are nuts. Men hate it, why put them through it? But I do think that SIGNIFICANT recreational time should be spent together. If one spouse doesn't like the hobby, then REASONABLE accommodation should be made so that the hobby can continue without interfering with the relationship.<P>If I had to stop my writing because it's not something I can share with my H, I'd go nuts. But when we go hiking together, or take a day trip, or go for a drive, or go out to brunch, it's time together that cements our relationship for those times when he wants to play Quake or I want to write.

Andy:<P>Your scenario is typical of what happens when you just use one of the MB principles without balancing it with the whole philosophy.<P>Should you try to spend all your recreational time together---probably, unless you've got an awful lot of excess time on your hands. You should shoot for 15 hours/week of "together" time, including recreational.<P>BUT...<P>You do this in a way that utilizes the Rule of Complete Honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement. You should never (rarely ever) "sacrifice" and not gain from it. You don't want "win-lose" situations.<P>TS has got it---she and her husband are using the POJA to attempt a plan. That plan may not work, and that's OK; it's not chiseled in granite. You give something a try, and then evaluate the success and tweak it if the original plan needs help.<P>Harley has rather extensive "recreational compatibility" form at the end of a couple of his books. You and your spouse basically rate the items. Then you try to do things that you both rated highly. If there's nothing agreed on (which is unusual), then you try some things that were favorable with one spouse and neutral with the other. <P>And if there's something that you positively love, but you can't possibly do together, then the best thing is to meet that requirement of "15 hrs/week" with your spouse doing things you both enjoy, and pursue your solitary activities with the remaining time. Just like D&C and her husband are doing with the walks and day trips. It's not to the level that she'd like it to be (perhaps), but it does cement the relationship, and avoids the resentment that builds up when you "thoughtlessly" do your own thing.<P>If you're asking, "How can I be married and be completely independent of my spouse?" the answer is you can't.

D&C,<P>What a wonderful answer. It seems to me that using the POJA is the way to go, but what D&C pointed out, deciding how to spend time with each other is not a game and scoring is not required.<P>TS, likes dancing. Her H has agreed to go sometimes. He might find he likes it. He might not like it anymore but will tolerate it. He likes other activities. Maybe she should join him on those sometimes. That does not mean a spouse cannot do their hobby alone sometimes.<P>I love to play golf. My wife doesn't. But when we were younger and before kids, she would sometimes go out with me and just walk the course while I played. We both enjoyed it. She learned something about golf. It gave her something to tease me about (putting and chipping occasionally go in the tank ). Even today she knows what I am talking about if I tell I had a good day or a bad day. <P>We also try to arrange to meet somewhere after I play to eat lunch or dinner or do something else if kids schedules allow. <P>Again, I think D&C really has it nailed down. It is not about equality, it is about balancing life a little better. It really doesn't even require giving up a hobby. Maybe finding something else that you both enjoy, just not as much a prime hobby. Do the one you both enjoy sometimes and the other hobbies more often.<P>My $0.02 which is really just agreeing with D&C.<P>JL

Hi Airheart,<P>You are bringing up a good topic for discussion. I also agree with much you are saying. I think the main thing to remember is when a couple is in recovery that they should spend if not all at least most of their recreational time together. I know that maybe I am not to thrilled with going fishing lets say, but maybe I can learn to enjoy it more. The fact that we are doing things together would reap great rewards for the future of our relationship together.<P>Maybe over time couples can start to have their "own time" as long as trust was built up between them. But one should look for the warning signs that would require one to rejoin in those activities once again with spouse. A person should not be totally consumed in certain recreational activities were as the marriage fails. Both sides need to take a look at what they enjoyed all along and what is possible for them to enjoy with their partner.<P>If someone just has to go rock climbling every free minute they have then this is no fair to the other spouse. Maybe the OS thinks that this would be dangerous or has real fears of height. The point I am trying to make is of course we all can't enjoy each others activities, but reasonable activities should at least be given a chance. One might be surprised that this activity is not so bad after all and it would bring them closer together. You need to approach the activity with an open mind. If it is negative then there is a stronger chance of failure to bond with spouse.<P>Now if a spouse wants to do an activity without the OS's presence then there is a problem. It's not good for any relationship to be totally consumed in one particular recreational activity.<P>One thing I would like to add to the above about something like rock climbing (only an example),maybe the spouse who does not want to participate can at least go along and stay on the sidelines. <P>If dazed and confused's H does not like dancing then maybe he can go along with her and be near her while she enjoys her activity. You never know, people change and maybe he'll hit the dance floor himself.<P>Thanks and I hope everyone trys to have some fun out there.<P>Pam<p>[This message has been edited by Pinky (edited March 15, 2000).]

I haven't read that book yet, but I can agree with the fact that both partners change their recreational interests while dating to meet each others. My husband was a wrestler. He gave that up. I was a musician. I gave that up. Neither was a total sacrifice though, because my husband enjoys athletics as a couple we attend sporting events together. I'm not a big fan of tennis, nor can I stand to watch all the rounds of the football draft, but I do enjoy a good baseball game. On the artistic end of things we have gone to the occasional concert, and museum. I have found that if it ties in with history he's very enthusiatic about going so I use that angle. Together we have found a joy in different strategy games. If it's both history related and flexes creative muscles it's one of our most enjoyed games. Do I miss some of the things I used to enjoy? Occasionally. Once or twice a year I pick up my instrument and play for a half an hour, or I'll go for an hour to paint some pottery. I don't engage in these activities though to the detriment of spending time with my husband. The key is to find the recreational activities that are related to both of your interests and not be so tied into keeping the exact activity.<P>Incidentally, recreational companionship was one of the big factors that led to my husband's affair, but it wasn't a lack of interest in joint activities. We found an activity that we both very much enjoyed, but due to lack of equipment only one could be involved in it at a time. So we participated in the same activity, but at seperate times.<BR>On top of that I have a tendency to dismiss recreation as important when I get stressed. One of those first work then play mentalities.

I'd like to get in on this discussion...but I have to go cook a church dinner for over 100. If any of you knew me, you would giggle...it is not a natural thing for me to do. I will be supervised by SuperMom, so I shouldn't be able to do any real damage.<P>I'll try to get back to this tonight....<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>If truthseeker's H does not like dancing then maybe he can go along with her and be near her while she enjoys her activity. You never know, people change and maybe he'll hit the dance floor himself.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I suggested that to him. He doesn't want to do that. He's rather stay home and watch TV. <BR>

What is it about dancing that is appealing to you? Is it the exercise, the creative expression? If you can nail down exactly what it is about dancing that you like you might be able to find an activity that will satisfy both of you.

Truthseeker,<P>Speaking for myself, I don't like to dance because I feel like such a clumsy dolt out there. Maybe your H does too. Men are just not brought up with dancing (so unmanly!).<P>1. Does he (truly) understand how important this is to you?<BR>2. Would he be willing to take dance lessons with you? <P>We men don't like to make fools of ourselves on the dance floor. Perhaps if he learned some steps and felt more comfortable he would be more willing to go out more! If you are in the needs negotiation stage, this might be an angle to try.

Hi Air,<P>How you doing? <P>As far a recreational activities as a couple I think is very important. Tony loves to snowmobile. I have to hear about it all fall, winter, and spring. Even durring the summer but that is for surfing. I snowmobile and I am getting better. He is taking the time to teach me to ski and well I can not even buggy board but I do try. Even though I wipe out all the time. <P>Tony is adament that we do these activities together. In fact he expects all our weekend time to be together. He even likes it when I sit and help him play video games. <P>Now what about me? Well I like going to the beach, and snowmobiling is ok. I have to admit I am still very nervous about getting hypothermia again. I can not go as fast as Tony so he does have a boys weekend only from time to time so he can really push the limits. I hate skiing. I am awful at it. I at least give it a go for a couple of hours. Tony is an extream sports person. Everything has to be a personal challange. Lets face it I have not be skiing or snowmobilling as long as he has and he has never given me a chance to learn. I have physically paid the price.<P>I really think it is more important for men to have "their women" be able to do the same things. I come from the South we do not have snow. I love to dance, he does not. I love to read and he does not. I go to museums, and hike, and trying to finish my masters. He goes hiking with me but that is about it. I have recieved low marks in one of my classes because of Tony. I can not stand that he has not supported me in my goals. <P>I have made it clear to Tony that it is a two way steet and he is trying now to meet my RC needs. I like this side of him. I hope it lasts becuase I am tired of giving up everything for him. No one person is worth it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...when a couple is in recovery that they should spend if not all at least most of their recreational time together. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Another good point, since recovery is essentially a rebuilding time. The other thing it does is help build TRUST.<P>One of the triggers I've had is when my H goes to work on weekends, because I've often feared that he's going off to meet Dragon Lady.<P>The way I dealt with this was to offer to help him. On those days, we'd go for a hike, then out to breakfast, then go to his office and I'd either help him, surf the Web, or write while he worked. That way it became a way for us to spend some time together.<P>Over time I've become less suspicious, so when he has something I can't help him with, or that's going to take all day, I feel better able to let him go by himself. Of course, if I can help, I still will go with him.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>1. Does he (truly) understand how important this is to you?<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, he does. That's why it doesn't bother him when I go out without him.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>2. Would he be willing to take dance lessons with you? <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, in fact, that's what was agreed to with the POJA. But he's tried it in the past and stopped, so I'm apprehensive about it. He could stop again this time. And how can I fault him for it if it's something he just doesn't like?<BR>

Andy,<P>Welcome back!!!! Haven't seen you in awhile. I would like to get in on the topic as well, but can't right now kids are being a little demanding- maybe after bedtime (8:00 pst).<BR>Catch-up with you all later when I have more time to read the replies.<P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole

I think what Harley is getting at is that you replace your recreational activity with another. He is not suggesting that you just sit around and watch tv. we only have so much time and that time needs to be spent with each other as much as possible. Does your ra cause your wife to have hard feelings? If so, how about a compromise. This year my husband hunted every other week and that worked great for me. I didn't mind the time he was gone and really appreciated the extra time he spent at home during that season. Your spouse needs to be your primary interest in your marriage, not your recreational activity.

One thing that pops out at me is this: <P>My H loves guns. I hate guns. Yeah, I knew he came from a family of gun lovers... although how well could I know him after six weeks, but I digress... anyway, yeah gun lovers, but David only had one gun, a rifle, and he hadn't shot it in some time. <P>Fast forawrd to today, when my H has about five rifles, 2 handguns... and I STILL HATE THEM. I don't want to look at them, touch them, learn how to shoot them, and I NEVER will. So, what to do? Well, I can tell you one thing, it won't involve guns.<P>I agree in principle with the Rec need, and the 15 hour thing. But around here, I have a H who works 60+ hrs. a week, and I'm lucky to see him 10-20 MINUTES a day. Yeah, he stayed home from work last Friday and we played pool - it was GREAT... but that's rare. He had to stay home from work to do it. See my problem? I do.<P>You have a valid point andy, about changing yourself to meet the rec. needs of spouse. Frankly, that story about Harley giving up chess gave me the creeps. Give it up? Hardly. Spending EVERY second with your spouse? Not even! Not many marriages could live through that. But finding something new that you both like, like when David and I played pool, which we haven't done for 15+ years... oh ya!

Hello all,<P>It is funny that this subject should come up because although I haven't really realized it (maybe I just wasn't listening with my ears) one of Arik's main EN's is recreational companionship. I am sure he has tried to tell me on numerous occassions but I have not really heard him I guess. That is until this past weekend and again today. We are going to be working on a plan to have a "date night" at least once a week where we can just go for a drive, go out for milkshakes, play pool , go out for a hike...whatever as long as it is just us two- no kids involved. He wants (and I do too) time with just the 2 of us. I don't think it really matters what it is, as long as we are together without kids popping in or asking questions or just being kids. <BR>I honestly believe that this is what is the most important thing in RC. Spending time together, finding something that the 2 of you enjoy and doing it, even if it is nothing at all except sitting on your front porch after the kids have gone to bed and watching the northern lights.<P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole <p>[This message has been edited by Patient Love (edited March 15, 2000).]

Hi Andy ... nothing to contribute ... I'm a lurker these days only, haven't posted for quite a few months, but when I saw your post, just had to say hi. One day I'll reply to your email when I have the strength to share the last few months <BR>Hope things are ok with you.

Just to throw more fuel on the fire:<P>K wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Your scenario is typical of what happens when you just use one of the MB principles without balancing it with the whole philosophy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I beg to differ. I was merely trying to reconcile what Harley said in his book when he recommends that couples should spend all their recreational time together.<P>For the record, I try to spend as much quality time with my wife as possible. I don't think we get in the "required" 15 hrs, but we do okay. Work and our son prevents more than probably 8 hrs a week.<P>But I still have interests that my wife just is NOT into and she never will be. I can accept that. So I do 'em on my own. I don't think that's such a bad thing. My wife let's me do them. I let her do her things. So we use POJA. Yay! Whoopie!!<P>But the issue is still there. When TruthSeeker mentioned her and her husband using POJA to work out an agreement, she's on the right track, sure, but the problem is STILL THERE. Her husband just doesn't like dancing. Eventually, he'll drop out of the lessons or whatever and they'll be in the same boat and they'll have to negotiate another POJA settlement. It'll always be there. And it can turn to resentment if we're not careful.<P>I think we all have to accept that if we want to stay sane and keep the resentment to a minimum, we all have to do our own thing from time to time. And that means not spending all our recreational time together as Harley says we should. It just ain't gonna happen for most of us.<P>--andy<P>ps - shout out to Pahakissa! Sorry I haven't emailed you in a while! Also, shout out to sosad! Yes, please email me soon! And HI and thanks everyone for contributing to this thread. It's an interesting topic.