Its been weeks since I last visited. Truth is, all seemed to be just too much to bother with anymore. The longer I have to be regarded as not being trustworthy or honest or the reason for the trouble. The further I fall away.<P>I know I have my responsibility to this marriage/relationship. Ive tried! <P>The trouble: she seeks relationships/(oops) talks with men,chat rooms,searching for naked men on net, etc.<BR>The bug in this is that the people I talk to or places I go or say are inappropriate and damaging to the growth of the marriage.<P>Then how is it that its ok for her to act innappropriate. Maybe I shouldnt care as Ive been threatened many times with divorce.<P>Each time I concede to go from the aggrsive attacks she turns and counters with kindness as if reality strikes an awareness of finality. Its like a series of storms,peace and then a hurricane-over and over. <P>Each time a piece of me dies and at this point I feel as its or ive gone too far away to care, but yet I dont want to go and find I wish I hadnt gone. Is it possible that too much pain or noise or anger could drive one away, I hate to think this is over just because Im tired and I wish I could find the strength,the feeling,the desire to go all the way.<P>I dont really know why Im here if just a way to say to someone,anyone that Im tires,scared,and confused.<BR>Last weekend was hell as I slumped to a corner to retreat. Sometimes I think if I were stronger I would tell her to shut up,to bacj off or just hold her and tell her that I love her and want her and need her. That everything will be ok.<BR>But sometimes in despair, I want to go away-far away and find happiness and love and peace and my life back.<BR>Am I angry-no,dissappointed-yes.<BR>Ive gone to church and prayed and asked with various oppinions of what to do. And Im still confused.<BR>So here it is. If she wants this marriage then why does she cheat and defend. And if she doesnt then why does she call me back. <BR>Whats real?

Separation? Sounds like she is needy, dependent and somewhat insecure. Once you make a definitive move she may get herself mobilized to make a difference! Is it an approach/avoidance dynamic?

David,<P>I honestly believe that she is just as scared as you are. Probably has the same questions and everything.<P>What to do?<P>Remember my suggestion about printing the info on this site and stuying it. Then doing it. I believe that if you do myou will see the results that those that do it get.<P>Enact the POJA right away then put the others to work. you guys <B>CAN</B> do this.<P>Next time you get frustrated instead of fetreating, hold her like that small part of you wants to.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

David,<P>I too had to respond...<P>I agree whole-hearted with Bill here.<P>Click on ===><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>The Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA)</A>...<BR>Print it out... Read it... Re-read it...<P>Go to Sheryl... and try it out for 2 weeks...<P>Show her some willingness...<P>Please also tell us that the OW (from Sheryl's perspective) is out of the picture!<P>Does Sheryl (or do you) have the book...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6010_give.html" TARGET=_blank>"Give & Take: The Secret to Marital Compatibility"</A>. It real explains better than any other Harley book the whole process of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>The Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA)</A>... <P>I think without it... without really giving it a try... any chance of recovery is slim!<P>I'm praying for you... <BR>Let your faith carry you through...<BR>...faith in the advice you're getting here... <P>Jim

Karenna, trouble is that I have little confidence and believed in the security of marriage. Felt I could depend on the marriage,be secure in it. I just lost trust and dont know if she can prove trust and hasnt or does it matter. Some will say to stand tall and take it and then it will come. Maybe I should,except fear.<P>William, Must admit sadly that I havent read the info yet, though I have it. She is at a seminar for 5 days and Im home w kids, so I'll have to go into this tonight. Both of us are too broke to leave and I should try again as were still together, just dont think I can take anymore abuse though, so I hope this time it or we will mend.

ok, now I feel terrible!<BR>spoke with wife just minutes ago and professed my uncertainty and suspicions. She said that nothing has been done inappropriatly and she has been upset since my ow during our separation 7 weeks or so ago.<BR>Maybe it was all in my head and now she is 130 miles away and no way to fix this. I feel like this is my fault. Always feels like my fault, very confusing. So I'll have to really look into this poja stuff and find whats missing.<BR>

David...<P>You have a few days without her...<P>If you're like most men...<BR>...you hate to <B>read</B> about <B>relationship building</B>...<BR>But this how <B>you CAN fix-it</B><P>Don't be frightened by it...<BR>It isn't a sissy thing to do...<BR>In some ways it's like relationship building with God...<P>I know you care about that relationship...<BR>Now spend some time on your's and Sheryl's...<BR>...and a stronger marriage <B>will</B> help you with your relationship with God too!<BR>Building any relationship takes time... even our relationship with God! Isn't that why we go to service on Sundays?<P>Don't worry about fault...<BR>...God doesn't care about fault...<BR>All He cares about is "are you repentant"...<BR>Prove your repentance... by taking up the challange to work on your marriage...<P>I know you're not new here...<BR>But recheck my general welcome message to the new folks... click here ===><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000002.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome for All New Builders</A>.<BR>It doesn't cost a dime!<BR>Click on <B>any</B> underlined word(s) to get to where you can read about concepts.<P>Try your own efforts at <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>...<BR>Sheryl knows what it is... hasn't been all to successful at always... but give it a try!<P>I'm proud of you finding the strength to come back...<BR>...maybe God had something to do with it?... No?<P> <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited March 22, 2000).]

Hi 3wishes -<P>I haven't had the time to post but I have come and checked up around here some.....I followed your other thread and was glad to see so much good advice and interaction with you.....<P>You and NB have to start fresh!! Old habits need to go out the window and new ones need to be established. Sort of like rebuilding a house.....get rid of the old "junk" and fixtures and comforts and replace them with better, more modern ones and especially ones that function in the correct way. NO MORE fix-it tape!!!!<P>Time to replace.....replace that ping-pong effect you two seem to have with each other.<P>NB may not be doing all she can or ever will for things to be better right now. She needs help with it maybe. That is where you can start to shine - start by learning this Harley stuff. Put it into practice!!!<P>Heck, maybe you can help NB with it!!!!<P>I know that if you two get on the right page TOGETHER with these concepts and communication tools, you can have this rebuilding done in no time!!!<P>BUT, YOU HAVE to start DOing some of the work.....lamenting about everything is not going to pick you or her up from the muck. Only climbing the ladder for yourself will do that!!!!<P>NB and you must eliminate ANY and ALL outside interests with people to come together on this.....if you have contact with someone or something that makes NB uncomfortable - then you MUST show that your priority is HER feelings and eliminate that uncomfortableness for her. That goes for her also. She must do the same if you are to feel comfortable!!!<P>Just don't fall into the trap of excuses to use as a put off for doing what you must do to get things moving in the right direction. It's not about proving anything, be it trust or whatever. It's about loving, caring and trying to be the best person you can for yourself, your spouse and your kids!!!<P>Start reading and you and NB will be that much closer to the end of this hell!!!! <P>It's up to you right now....for you, not for her....<P>YOU CAN MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE!!!!<P>This didn't happen overnight and it won't go away overnight.....<P>BIG HUGS, Prayers and Strength to you,<P>Sheba<BR>

Daivd,<P> Hi, I'm the king at screwing up relationships, if you want any leasons I could give you a million. NSR has some good advice, Take this time to learn about relationships and what makes them tick. I did it, At first I only copied what some else did but since them I am more able to think on my own. Do a search on romantic tips, read the stuff here, it is all good and it does work. <P> It is not easy being in a relationship that is in the state yours is in. The two of you sound like you what rather hurt each other then help each other. SOMEONE HAS TO TAKE THE FIRST STEP, WHO WILL IT BE ?????????????????????????<P>Good Luck<BR>

Just wanted to say thank you to all who have been of support to me in this and other posts.<P>I'm going to take it easy for now and read as often as I can, be kind, and loving.<P>Dont really know if this will work or that I can trust her. I feel that I shouldnt engage in effort toward intimacy until secure in knowing that it is safe to do so.<P>I wonder if you can contract a virus from someones elses drink or kiss, well kiss I'm sure, but what else?<P>Need to find a clear and helpful example of a poja contract. Also need a clear understanding of emotional needs expected to better prepare for the difficult road ahead.<P>Hope all are doing better and prayers to you and peace from God who is able to see us through. <P>David

David (Sheryl),<P>All great advice here.<P>I'll tell you the same thing I told NB. You two have fallen into a really odd pattern of having affairs when you want to get the other's attention. This particular relationship dynamic goes to the almost start of your marriage.<P>None of those wounds have healed in all this time and you both continue doing it in some way. You never get to the root of any problem because it's so clouded over by infidelity.<P>

In Shock,<P>I have had one three month affair in 20 years of marriage (for which I take complete responsibilty). I don't think that's an odd pattern, I think that was crying out (again, not an excuse). And you're right, none of the wounds from his affairs have healed.<P>~Sheryl<P><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited March 26, 2000).]

David and Sheryl -<P>Will you two just take a minute and listen (read) to yourselves......<P>He says "she's doing ......"<P>She says "he did......."<P>Where the heck is this fingerpointing and wallowing in the rehashing going to get either of you?<P>How about finishing this sentence -<P>"I" can do ..........to help this marriage!!!!!!<P>Let's stop the old patterns (and YES they are patterns) of actions and bad communication.......<P>So, both of you think of what YOU can DO right NOW to rectify the root problem or at least identify it.<P>Both of you think of what it will take to allow yourselves to have ONE day together without some sort of emotional BS in the forefront.<P>Small steps.....remember?<P>BIG HUGS and LOVE to you both,<P>Sheba

Sheba,<P>I had David come read your response, and told him I would reply.<P>I love you, you're a sweetie, but I ask that you remember that I am still reeling from his last physical affair eight weeks ago. Where were you eight weeks after discovery? <P>And remember, as I do, that it was not the first affair. <P>Everyone has wonderful advice, and I'm not discounting the sincerity behind what's being said. <P>I know what Plan everything is, I know about the POJA, EN's, LB's and everything else. I cared enough to read it all, try it all... I was here for months before he was, and did my best to be a good wife while *I* was going through the withdrawl from my affair. And you know what? It did nothing to bring us closer together... nothing. We are no closer to being good together than we were in the midst of my affair. I am TIRED. <P>I am not allowed to discuss how my H's communication style is impossible to understand, how he talks around the issues and not about how HE FEELS, how he doesn't go to counseling, how he has affair after affair, how he throws the Bible in my face... I am suppose to be supportive and loving and strong and everything else... it was ALWAYS expected of me because *I* was the one who came here. <P>Well, surprise, I am not strong, I am so dammed tired of trying that if I had the means I would quit my job and move away from my entire family I would BE GONE... I AM SICK TO DEATH OF THIS LIFE.<P>Any of you, put yourself in my place. Picture that you are here, trying to work things out, and your spouse has yet ANOTHER affair. <P>God, does anyone understand?<P>As a PS, I shouldn't have read this thread... I don't belong here in any way anymore... the thing is, I wrote David a letter last week, trying to reconcile, a last ditch effort, so to speak. It didn't work, and I'm just sick of putting myself on the line for nothing. I'm sorry... but I can't delete my posts, so this will remain. Thank you all for your concern and good thoughts... I'll leave this thread to David. It's his. ~Sheryl<BR><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited March 26, 2000).]

Hi Again you two -<P>I was just rereading David's post and realized that I didn't address his need for a good poja example and a clue on emotional needs from NB.....<P>There's a good way to start doing this if you both are willing......<P>The poja - well, I don't have one to share cuz my H is still in lalaland but I will help you both put one together if you want.<P>Perhaps the problem is just not knowing what the first step is.....<P>How about if each of you write your feelings out (in plain English David please....it's easier on NB) - in a memoir type of way for now....write down everything...start from the beginning - from what was going on before the first EM and everything you remember of your feelings, etc. since......<P>Write what hurt, what was good, what was confusing, etc.<P>Can you both do that?<P>Then we can take what you each felt/feel and put it into a letter to each other and maybe get to the root of all this.... <P>Then comes the creation of emotional needs and POJA.......<P>What do you both think? Can you start with organizing your thoughts and then proceed to a place where you can express them to each other in a way that leaves out the emotions of confrontation face to face?<P>Let me know........<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

NB - you posted as I did......<P>I fully realize that you are reeling and you know that I have nothing but compassion for that......<P>I am sorry that something I wrote got you mad or upset....didn't mean to cause that reaction....<P>I am also sorry that I wasn't around to comfort you then (although, I don't seem to have that effect anyway!! LOL!!) I LOVE YOU GUYS......I don't know why - heck, I don't even know you!!!<P>I SEE so much in the two of you - so much promise that this could all be made so much better.......<P>I DO UNDERSTAND all about this NB - and even though I didn't have an affair myself that doesn't mean that I don't understand how one would get to doing it!!!! I think I am insane sometimes because I understand it so well!!!!<P>The problems with you two ARE NOT THE AFFAIRS!!!!! Those are the results of things going on within each of you. The sooner you get to those "things" - the sooner this affair business will stop!<P>That's where you both have to be...<P>I know that you are tired.....and hurting.....and frustrated.....and so many other things. Do you want it to end? Then help end it with a different approach.<P>Noone says it's easy......nothing worth the good results is.<P>Hugs, Strength, Love and Prayers for you both,<P>Sheba<P>PS (to NB's PS- we have to stop typing at the same time!!)<P>David - what is she talking about? What did you choose for a response to her letter? Please clarify what you have decided....is there some finality with your thinking? <p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited March 26, 2000).]

Oh Lord, Sheba... just a short note... I'm not mad at you AT ALL. So don't worry... <P>I'll let David address how he handled my letter, but let's just say that during my trip I was led to tears twice by his phone calls, and they weren't tears of compassion...they were of anger and pain.<P>...and when I got back from my five day trip he wasn't here. No David, no welcome home, no nothing.<P>Yes, I agree that our problems aren't about the affairs, per se. That's why I'm in counseling. I'm learning... and here's what I'm learning: I can't live like this. It is about SHERYL... not Sheryl and David. My problems in my life are about me alone.<P>Okay, now I'm done. Back to my cave. I'm hibernating.

Sheba, didnt want to respond-too dangerous. <BR>Last weekend was yelling,complaining,blaming,etc. <BR>f,s,and s. By monday when the letter was given I was in shock and confused. I mean how long should I endure and bounce back.<BR>This weekend the same as I stay away in order to avoid conflict and even that doesnt work. oh well!<BR>She reads my posts so I dont feel its productive for me to write here anymore.<P>Thank you to everyone for your support and understanding,God help each of you and give you strength. David