SORRY scandinavian!! <BR> <BR> <BR>TO PACKRAT:<P>Three things:<BR>1) You keep saying you're not sorry. Actually, you are sorry, VERY sorry. <P>2) I hope I am NEVER you're equal. <P>3) Looks like your H hit the lottery (or should feel like he did). <P> <BR>I'm sorry for whatEVER it was the world did to you, I will pray for you. FRANK<P><p>[This message has been edited by PLEASE HELP (edited April 25, 2000).]

What answer could possible ease the pain you have felt???<P>When Jesus was hanging on the cross, and the crowds surrounded him, mocking and spitting upon him....he was able to utter this brief prayer to his Father....<P>"Father...forgive them....they don't know what they are doing".<P>

packrat:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>You ask why "we" act so cruel, I want to know why you can't let go. Feelings and people change, it's a fact. Things don't work out "right" sometimes, that too is a fact.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Please don't take this as a personal attack on you because it is not. What I am going to say has to deal with reality as defined by God. It is the hedonistic society that is heavily influenced by God that says that it is okay to use people for our own personal pleasure which is what the betrayers do. They only look to feel good at the cost of others not realizing that the ones they are ultimately hurting are themselves.<P>We do let go because we are not so caught up in oursleves that we are willing to hurt those who truly care for us. That is why Jesus say Father forgive them for they know not what they do when He was dying on the cross for the forgivveness of ALL of our sins because no MAN or WOMAN can meet the requirement that only Jesus can and did fulfill.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why would anyone in their right mind want to be with someone who doesn't love them?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You are talking about the base feeling which God created for our pleasure. Yet what you call love is lust because God is love and He ain't a part of lust. In order for love to be true love God has to be a part of it because He is LOVE at its finest. If He ain't a part of the equation then it AIN'T love.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I had an affair, but that's not the cause of my separation from my husband. When he found out, I finally realized that there was no reason to put off hiding my feelings anymore. I'd been out of love with him for a long time. My affair happened because, in my mind, my marriage was just a technicality. I felt it had been over for a long time, and while I should have separated the instant I realized I was no longer in love with my husband, I'm still not sorry about my affair.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You still don't know what true love is. True love means making sacrifices. Read 1 Corinthians 13 to learn what true love is. It does not emphasize pleasure above everything else. It talks about having the other person's best interest before your own. True happiness is knowing that you have made the other person as comfortable and happy as God will allow you to do so.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why do the betrayed have to be so blind? Why can't you just realize what I've realized? It's over, it's done, move on. Feelings change, and it's not a bad thing. It's just a thing. Don't you suppose that it'd be much healthier for you to accept that this has happened, wish each other well, try to get along during and after the divorce for the sake of your children if you have any, and go forth with your life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>These things only exist in Satan's world because he doesn't want you to know the truth much like you had to keep it a secret that you were sleeping with someone else. Secrets only make your life more miserable because you ave to make more lies to cover the first lie. IT is so much easier to remember the truth!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It's not real love if only one person feels it. And no amount of effort on your part is going to fix anything if your spouse doesn't love you anymore. It's not as complicated as you all want to make it. It's as simple as it can possibly be. Just get over it. Wake up and move on and maybe someday, you'll find the person you were actually meant to be with.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You are putting the emphasis on the wrong part of love. The feeling is OOOOOH so much better when you put the decision first. Love is a decision to put the other person's best interest before yours. Love is giving knowing that your return is in the GIVING because God is the one who is going to give you internal JOY which comes only from Him.<P>I will get off my soap box now. Please understand I am not blasting you. This applies to ALL of us feeble little nothhing humans. We only become something when we submit to God everything that we are made of. That is where we feel complete because that is where we will find the PERPETUAL happiness that we ALL seek. All that I have written here applies to BOTH betrayed and betrayers.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net <p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited April 25, 2000).]

Packrat-<P>You missed the whole point of the post. So you have a master's, etc. What is your point?<P>I'll go slow here, and maybe you will get it this time. Marriage has little to do with love and a lot to do with committment, with working through the problems as they come up. Your way is the easy way out. If that is what you prefer, fine. Don't try to justify it here. There are plenty of other places to do that. You say that communication and compromise are important to you in a relationship. Did you let your husband know that you had fallen out of love with him? It does not appear so from your post, Did you try to compromise with him so that you could work together. From your post it does not appear so. So what do you have left? What you deserve.<P>

packrat:<P><B>I don't know why I even bother. You people are more annoyingly narrowminded than Fundamentalist Christians and right-wing Republicans.</B><P>Why do you have to berate Chrisitans and Republicans. You do that which you accuse we Christians and Republicans (I am not Republican, though they are closer to what is truth.) Your saying that we are narrow minded says that you are the same. We don't exclude your thoughts. We just examine your thoughts and measure them against the truth that is revealed with each moment of our existence.<P><B>Suffice it to say, there are two sides to every story.</B><BR>But there is only one TRUTH. IF it were not so then you wouldn't be able to consistently start your car or be able to breath, etc.<P><B>I feel exceptionally sorry for those of you who have allowed yourselves to be deluded into thinking that your spouses will magically fall back in love with you just because you want them to.</B><BR>Magic only exists for those who don't understand that magic is merely and illusion. The in love thing is something that is merely a feeling that comes and goes. It is not love. It is the feeling part of love that God created for us to enjoy. It is the pleasurable part of the LOVE COMMITMENT. It is not the end all to be all. It is the COMMITMENT that is the end all to be all because it always results in reaching the feeling which is intensified when the COMMITMENT is there.<P><B>Oh, and Gramps? I have a Masters, an exemplary work history, and a great job with a fabulous salary. I've never relied on love to pay my bills and I could give a **** less about getting flowers every week. Profundity, common interests, communication, compromise, conversation, equality...these are the things that matter to me in a relationship. You think someone should love you because you pay the light bill on time? Guess my ideas of love are a little more profound than yours.</B><P>What does having a Masters say. I have a Masters as well. It adds nothing to your situation. If it had any bearing on your making your marriage work then you never would have betrayed your H. Communication is very important. It is quite apparent that you did NOT take the necessary steps to get your H to communicate with you in a manner that is most meanigful to you. You are blaming him and accepting none of the responsibility. You are as much to blame as he is.<P><B>I came here at the behest of my husband, but there's nothing more I can say that will make any of you see past your own noses. I'm glad he's found a place of support, I'm sure you folks will make him feel right at home. My best wishes to all of you. I hope your marriages work out for the best.<BR></B><P>I suspect he sent you here to get other perspectives other than just his. However, you have dismissed what we have to say because you are STILL attributing to him trying to make it work between the two of you. You have to accept that YOUR PROBLEM is that you have to change yourself in order to influence your H to responding in ways that are most meaningful to you.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net <P>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited April 25, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited April 25, 2000).]

packrat,<P>Of course there are two sides to every story. There has to be a reason you came here, though. It is a marriage builders site. You apparently care enough about your husband to show up here. Did you really think we would pat you on the back for having an affair? <P>Trust me. I've had my angry lashing out moments on this website as well. Partly justified, and partly when I felt like crap that I had a huge part in the failure of my marriage. I cheated on my H too, and he was no saint. His behavior, however, does not justify my own. In spite of how my H treated me, I'll always be sorry that I betrayed him. Why? Because I'll never know if it was me who killed the opportunity to have a great marriage. <P>Whether you still love your H or not, there has to be a part of you that is mourning for it's loss. If not, then you probably never had much of a marriage to begin with. In that case, it is likely that you are doing your H a huge favor. <P>These issues are ones you will have to struggle with no matter who you end up with. If you want to hop from man-to-man the rest of your life and call your whims "love", then go ahead. It is your life.

Havn't been here in awhile...gosh there's an awful lot of new names.<P><BR>Scandinavian:<BR>From what I've learned from this site, the cruelty is due to the Fog--a condition created by addiction to a lover (my husband's addiction to pornography and his<BR>E.A.'s created the same condition.)<P>My husband tells me that I should not believe anything he said while in that condition because it was the jerk talking and not him. He say's he shot that other guy, tied him to a chair and gagged him, sent him out into the field across the street (maybe the cayotes will get him.)<P>He too is often surprised at what he did say while in that condition and wishes he hadn't done or said what he did say and do. It still makes me cry when I think about it. <BR>Eventually it caused me to lose my love for him.<P>We are in the process of restoring our marriage and love for each other. And yes,<BR>that can happen..... sometimes it just takes longer than we think. <P>CJ<P>P.S. He was in The Fog for so long that I don't even recogonize the person he is otherwise....only by the same set of blue eyes. <P> <P>------------------<BR>Psalm 42<P>[This message has been edited by CJB80 (edited April 25, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by CJB80 (edited April 25, 2000).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by packrat:<BR>You ask why "we" act so cruel, I want to know why you can't let go. Feelings and people change, it's a fact. Things don't work out "right" sometimes, that too is a fact. <P>packrat, I am the betrayed. Am I supposed to just give up and "let go" after 13 years. It is not an easy thing to do, especially when the betrayer has turned into an "evil twin" as so many others have posted here.<P>Why would anyone in their right mind want to be with someone who doesn't love them? I had an affair, but that's not the cause of my separation from my husband. <P>I just have an awfully hard time believing that story. I hear the same thing from my H and I think its a bunch of BS!<P>Why do the betrayed have to be so blind? Why can't you just realize what I've realized? It's over, it's done, move on. Feelings change, and it's not a bad thing. It's just a thing. <BR> <BR>I am not blind and I know that feelings change. My feelings have also changed, but I would never in a million years put my H through the nightmare that he has put me in.<P>It's not real love if only one person feels it. And no amount of effort on your part is going to fix anything if your spouse doesn't love you anymore. <P>And I feel that no amount of effort on my part will do anything as long as my H has his imaginary girlfriend. I am not even getting a chance!(he does not even have the decency to tell me the truth)<P>Just my 2 cents worth, I don't mean to offend anyone here

TheStudent,<BR>BRAVO!!<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

It sounds like PackRat is an OW, trying to understand why the wife just doesn't let H go. JMHO

packrat, you seem to be confused. I think most of us who have been betrayed have a S who still loves them. My H knows he screwed up, and yes, we were having problems in our marriage. But he still knows that it was him who made the choice to have an affair and that is his own fault. But he loves me and wants our marriage to work. The affair has ended and we are working on our marriage. You are right, if he didn't love me anymore, I wouldn't want to stay married to him. What would be the point? But that's not the case and I don't think it is for most of us here. If someone doesn't love someone anymore, must they still be so cruel as you are being. I mean you loved them at some point. You should at least be more considerate of their feelings. You can't just turn your feelings off because the other person doesn't feel the same way. Marriage is supposed to be a commitment for life, not just something that you throw away when it doesn't feel good anymore!

To answer Packrat, I guess Chris Rock said it best:<BR>"Why should I pay for a divorce just 'cause your [censored] ain't in love anymore"! <P>Sorry, thought some humor could be used on this nasty weather hump day!

Whooo Hoooo!!! my turn to respond. I clicked on this post because I was really interested in why too. I have some guesses and theories. Hoping to get them confirmed.<P>Here's what I think. My husband acted cruel partly because he felt a sense of payback for the hurt I inflicted on him. He was also very depressed for reasons that only marginally had to do with me which made his perspective seeing very limited. He started looking for the bad. His sense of self-worth was in the toilet and the only way he could really feel successful at all was to be successful at finding things wrong in his life. (a little warped, but hey I've been in the throws of depression to, and I have to admit there is a certain glee in wallowing in misery.) At one point early on he said to me that it was over, that I should just accept that, all the things packrat has said and then he said that I'd eventually be miserable too. He couldn't make me happy. He didn't feel worthy enough to be my husband. Then he'd tell me he never meant to hurt me. Ask me what he should do with his life. I'm sitting here thinking, if it's really over what in the world do you care what I think you should do with your life? All the choices were just too overwhelming. He wanted to close doors. To narrow the choices. In his head he thought, be mean and cruel to her because it will drive her away. You can't keep her anyway.<P>To answer packrat's question... Why did I stay? I did admit to him that if I felt he really would be miserable with me that I would let him go. I didn't really want to be the cause of him living the rest of his life unhappy, but I also knew deep down inside I didn't have any way to keep him. If he wanted to he could walk out the door and not look back. I still believed in him even when he didn't. I believed he was the kind of man that could make me happy. I believed in myself. I believed I was the kind of woman who could make him happy. I threw the ball in his court and did my best to make the game look attractive enough to play. If he would have walked out the door I would have survived. I would have moved on. I would have found love again.<P>There's a new song out that really sums up how I felt and do still feel.<P>"You can't stop my love for you. It will be here that's a given. As long as I am living on this earth one thing is true you can turn away forget me, curse my name, but love won't let me let you go. My love is unconditional."<P>Even moving on, finding a new love there would have been a place in my heart for him.<P>Sorry packrat, but love doesn't let go that easy. You are too wonderful a woman for your husband to just let you walk out that door without at least telling you he'd like you to stay.

*Packrat* is my wife. I knew it from her words.. the same words she told me before.. except the part about being in love with the other man.. she professed that she was not, but she now admits she thinks she is in love with him. For my other thread go here:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/002407.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/002407.html</A> <P>I really do appreciate the support from those of you who have been betrayed like me.. and you all have said things I have said, and things I would like to say but I cannot. That is why as her husband, I ask you to be as pleasant as possible with packrat, disagree all you want to, just try to understand each other.. at this point we all know she refuses to believe and that is something we cannot change.. only she can. But I would like for all those that were betrayers, to help packrat through this awful mess.. I would like it if she would keep posting on this board, even if the posts are negative.<P>Thank you all again for your support.<p>[This message has been edited by Neobican (edited April 26, 2000).]

Packrat - I still love you.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by packrat:You ask why "we" act so cruel, I want to know why you can't let go. Feelings and people change, it's a fact. Things don't work out "right" sometimes, that too is a fact. <P>Dear packrat, Don't go! Please stay. I hope you return to this site and keep reading or lurking. I was engaged by your point of view, because you sound like my H. I love him but feel so removed from him, and I can't talk to him without exploding. I can look at the betrayer's point of view if it is someone else than him who is speaking, and get a better insight. He is betraying me and used words like "It is what it is" to describe our marriage. He fell out of love, doubted that he ever had loved me, had doubts for years that he never told me about. Please don't stop coming, even if you disagree with what is posted by the folks here. <P>"Why would anyone in their right mind want to be with someone who doesn't love them? I had an affair, but that's not the cause of my separation from my husband. When he found out, I finally realized that there was no reason to put off hiding my feelings anymore. I'd been out of love with him for a long time. My affair happened because, in my mind, my marriage was just a technicality. I felt it had been over for a long time"<P>Dear packrat, sounds like my H. Difference is, far as I know, there's no physical affair. It's "only" a best friend. <P><BR>Do some research on the long term effects of divorce on children. It is never good for them in the long run. Ultimately their well-being affects all of us in society. Boy children raised without a Dad are more likely to suffer emotional and psychological problems, do poorly in school, join gangs. Girl children raised without Dads are more likely to engage in early intercourse, promiscuity, have out of wedlock babies (who are then left to be cared for by strangers while Mom works). You don't need to comment on this paragraph, just think on it. BTW, my parents were divorced.<P><BR>It's not real love if only one person feels it. And no amount of effort on your part is going to fix anything if your spouse doesn't love you anymore. It's not as complicated as you all want to make it. It's as simple as it can possibly be. Just get over it. <P>It's very complicated. Your life is at stake. There's a child involved. The child will learn that marriage is a disposable commodity, and will have two part time parents instead of a home. That's why I'm staying (being a ***** sometimes but staying). <P><BR>Thanks for visiting. And please come back.<BR> <BR><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by packrat:"You ask why "we" act so cruel, I want to know why you can't let go. Feelings and people change, it's a fact. Things don't work out "right" sometimes, that too is a fact." <P>Dear packrat, Don't go! Please stay. I hope you return to this site and keep reading or lurking. I was engaged by your point of view, because you sound like my H. I love him but feel removed from him, and I can't talk to him without exploding. I can look at the betrayer's point of view if it is someone other than him who is speaking, and get a better insight. He is betraying me and used words like "It is what it is" to describe our marriage. <P>He fell out of love, doubted that he ever had loved me, had doubts for years that he never told me about. Please don't stop coming here, even if you disagree with what you read. <P>"Why would anyone in their right mind want to be with someone who doesn't love them? I had an affair, but that's not the cause of my separation from my husband. When he found out, I finally realized that there was no reason to put off hiding my feelings anymore. I'd been out of love with him for a long time. My affair happened because, in my mind, my marriage was just a technicality. I felt it had been over for a long time"<P>Dear packrat, sounds like my H. Difference is, far as I know, there's no physical affair. It's "only" a best friend. <P><BR>Please do some research on the long term effects of divorce on children. It is never good for them in the long run. Ultimately their well-being affects all of us in society. Boy children raised without a Dad are more likely to suffer emotional and psychological problems, do poorly in school, engage in violent behaviors, father children and abandon them, join gangs. Girl children raised without Dads are more likely to engage in early intercourse, promiscuity, have out of wedlock babies (who are then left to be cared for by strangers while Mom works). You don't need to comment on this paragraph, just think on it. (BTW, my parents were divorced.)<P><BR>"It's not real love if only one person feels it. And no amount of effort on your part is going to fix anything if your spouse doesn't love you anymore. It's not as complicated as you all want to make it. It's as simple as it can possibly be. Just get over it." <P>It's VERY complicated. Your life is at stake. There's a child involved. The child will learn that marriage is a disposable choice, that a change in feelings or loss of physical desire is enough to break a commitment, the child will have two part- time parents instead of a family and a home. That's why I'm staying (being a ***** sometimes but staying). <P><BR>Thanks for visiting. And please come back. It helps to have a window to the other point of view.<BR> <P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess