Dragontraces,<P>Ditto...<P>I've had two abortions in my early 20's that happened while using birth control. Call me fertile and also irresponsible. <P>After getting married in my late 20's, my H and I decided not to have children. Knowing full well how UNreliable birth control can be, and knowing I could never bring myself to have another abortion or give it up for adoption, I decided to have my tubes tied. One of the best decisions I ever made.

There is so much bitterness and hatred for the innocent here! The spouses of the wayward husband (popeye and others) seem to be in a lala fantasy land. If you want your man, you have to take responsibility for everything he did you are so eager to forgive. Accept him for what he is and the consequences of his actions. <P>That means being an involved stepmom. If you want him, you ought to take on an emotional relationship with his innocent child. Otherwise, let him go so he can do the right thing by his child without getting grief from you. Why would you want to keep a selfish man who can't be adult enough to parent his own child? Yuck. <P>According to Dr. Harley, the betrayed spouse most likely contributed something to making the marriage less than blissful originally. Some of you seem to feel special because you were married to your slut first. Do you really think you are so much better than he is or OW?<P>(All my kids were born in marriages, but I have struck out on almost every form of birth control known to man. Seven pregnancies, hope make it six healthy "spawned offspring" in a few months. It is just really stupid to rely on any birth control for free sex.)<P>------------------<BR>A true friend is one who not only is willing to love us the way we are, but is able to leave us better than he found us.

Raskolnikov,<P>You probably didn't mean it literally, but convicted murderers do not have more rights than adulterers. Murderers go to jail, and in some states they are executed. You still have your life and liberty. In fact, it was your free will that resulted in the pregnancy. Excusing yourself because you were drunk is a cop-out. The buck stops at your fly, buddy. <P>Your very words "One inebriated evening spawned a child" betrays your complete lack of responsibility. The word "I" is not even in the sentence.<P>The law is based on this biological fact: women get pregnant and carry the child, men don't. Roe vs. Wade recognized a woman's right to decide what she can do with her own body. Are you seriously suggesting you ought to have the right to force a woman, whom you made pregnant, to have an abortion, or give the child up to adoption, so that you can avoid the problems that would cause to your life? Do you think society is wrong in not granting you that power? I don't think anyone, be they pro-choice or pro-life, would support a law that forced a woman to have an abortion, or forced a woman to give up her child for adoption. Such a society would not be free; it would be truly evil.<P>I hear you blaming society, the courts, the woman, all women, alcohol, and anyone who disagrees with you. When are you going to accept responsibility for your own actions? You talk about "freedom through accountability and responsibility" but it sounds like what you really want is "the freedom to avoid accountability and responsibility."<P>I would like to direct you to stop thinking only about yourself, and to consider your child's needs. Your child now has a loving relationship with his/her mother. I don't imagine you have developed such a relationship. Stop pretending that "Only adoption will provide two loving parents". You have the choice to love your child or not. It's clear what the choice you made is.<P>Do you really think it's in the child's best interest to tear it from it's loving mother and force it into adoption? You want to do this so you can get off the hook for child-support payments. Again, you seek to avoid your responsibility.<BR> <BR>By the way, I am intrigued by your user name, Raskolnikov. He is, as you know, the central character in Dostoyevsky's "Crime & Punishment". He murdered his landlady, is pursued by a detective, and is eventually driven by his own guilty conscience to confess. Raskolnikov finally accepted his accountability and responsibility. Maybe someday you will, too.<P>Sincerely, <BR>Kenneth<p>[This message has been edited by Kenneth (edited May 08, 2000).]

This issue is about nature and the nuances of the laws of nature created by God. God gave both man and woman the power to create a new life. This power is awesome yet all persons play with it as if it was minor and somewhat trivial. We all have unless we have abstained till marriage. Birth control or no birth control. Ask yourself if the power to procreate is not the supreme gift that God has given us. If this gift is not honored and cherished it can become a powerfully desructive force in one's life.<P>And with respect to this gift God gave women the ability to nurture life to birth. He did not give this to men. He gave this to women for a reason. He knew that in order to bring healthy new life into the world an individual (the mother) would need to form an intense bond with the child. A bond that would allow for caring, nurturing and healthy development. Without this bond the chances for survival and healthy psychological and biological development is severely threatened. Simply put women and mothers directly have the power to alter society in ways that men can only dream of. Women have the gift from God to change the very core of a society from the bottom (children) up. They have the power to build foundations that men can only stand upon. This may sound like a bunch of gobbly-[censored]. But think for a moment about the power that women hold. It is theirs to embrace and accept. Fewer and fewer women are accepting God's devine mercy for original sin by giving then the power to change the world. Adoption, abortion and abandonment only strive further to deteriorate society; all in their own degree.<P>Women need to accept their responsibility for children as God saw fit. Finances, money, child support mean nothing when the will of the mother is congruent with God's will to nurture, love and rear a healthy human being that can effect the society.<P>Think for a momemt, if each mother today and tommorrow were extremely committed and focused on developing children that exemplified Ghandi, Christ or any other highly enlightened person. No matter the method or philosophy. The goal is important not the means. The world would begin to change overnight and we would feel it immediately.<P>Men have no such power, they were not given this by God. Men are to provide what is needed to see that the mother can freely do her mission. Men who ignore this or neglect this have not listened to God. Men need to provide support, love, care and attention to the home and society so that the mother can succeed. Men who run from this should be allowed to run. They serve no purpose. Other men should step in and do God's will. Let the non-supporter go. Focus on the core issues of love, dedication, care, attention and needs of the child; both psychological and biological, and God's will will be done. Both the mother and God will recognize this and perservere.<P>Think profoundly about children and you simultaneously think profoundly about the future of the human race. Diminish children and you diminish the existence of God and the future of the human race.

Popeye...<P>Come on!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If the man doesn't want to be a father, he should have a legal way of releasing himself of that obligation before thebaby is born- the same option the woman has.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That would certainly set protecting children back about 200 years or so.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Mutually deciding the child's future is certainly a better option than giving more rights to the woman simply because of biology. If unwed couples had to acknowledge the future they were creating for their unborn child in writing (who would have custody, who would be involved, who would pay what,etc), I think they would think more seriously about what they've done <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Perhaps if you had the male (and, yes, I'm one) sign BEFORE he unzipped...but we all know that is not going to happen.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The spouses of the wayward husband (popeye and others)seem to be in a lala fantasy land. If you want your man, you have to take responsibility for everything he did you are so eager to forgive. Accept him for what he is and the consequences of his actions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>AMEN! I am sorry you are all in the situation. It stinks. You have my sympathy...as foes your H and everyone else involved. If I had not woken up just in time, I could be in his shoes. But, the fact that your financial security is threatened by your H having to pay support IS NOT the fault of society, the courts, or the OC...<P>

Oh boy,this post reeks of "It's not FAIR"<BR>Get over it.......Life's not fair. You're a grown man who knows the facts of reproduction(last time I checked, human beings aren't "spawned",although it sounds like you wish they were so you could "swim" away from the consequences of your poor choice),women's rights regarding their choices in their pregnancy,what will likely be decided in any custody/support issues that arise. All that considered..quit feeling sorry for yourself and take responsibility for your actions before a pregnancy results!!!!!<p>[This message has been edited by mthrrhbard (edited May 08, 2000).]

A *Bouquet* to the astute, literary talent showing up on this thread!<BR>Clear, concise, unarguable reality! <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Karenna:<BR><B>The spouses of the wayward husband (popeye and others) seem to be in a lala fantasy land. If you want your man, you have to take responsibility for everything he did you are so eager to forgive. Accept him for what he is and the consequences of his actions. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Some of you are really distorting the meaning of posts here. If you read ALL of what has been written, you will see that most of us are very compassionate about the existing OC. We HAVE accepted that this has happened, and DO blame our spouses for what they contributed. The issue is what happens now? How can things be different for others in the future?<P>I post here to get feedback from others. Many of you come off as condescending and judgmental, but you aren't dealing with it, so how do you know how you would feel given the same circumstances? For those of you who are dealing with it, many of you are on the other side of the fence or still living with some guilt. So naturally there are different points of view. But this is not about guilt or blame, but what to do now. All opinions are worthwhile, but do not work in all situations. <P>I appreciate that so many of you have responded and have read all your posts, but for those of you who demonstrate the "I know it all- so there!" attitude, you're really not helping. Compassion would go a long way. We all find ourselves in tough situations in life. I hope that you don't come across the same "friendly" attitudes you have shown here when it is your turn.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>By the way, I am intrigued by your user name, Raskolnikov. He is, as you know, the central character in Dostoyevsky's "Crime & Punishment". He murdered his landlady, is pursued by a detective, and is eventually driven by his own guilty conscience to confess. Raskolnikov finally accepted his accountability and responsibility. Maybe someday you will, too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I too read his work. Selection of his name was not accidental and was meant to imply acceptance of accountability and responsibility in the wake of my mistakes. Despite this acceptance, I still disagree with the manner in which our society handles these situations. Note this disagreement does not imply that I run from the wind blaming all save myself for the consequences of my actions. There are consequences in life … we don't necessarily have to agree with them ... only to deal with them. <P>The issue is more complicated and riddled with challenges than how we are currently dealing with it. Many of you very eloquently summarized the irresponsibility of my actions, but apparently misunderstood my post. Life is not a cookie sheet and we shouldn't apply a cookie cutter to every problem faced before us. <P>Thank you all for your candor.<BR>

These topics relating to personal responsibility and the OW/OC seem to inspire intolerance and anger rather than solutions. It is alarming that this thread has taken on an "I'm gonna tell you off" flavor.<BR> <BR>This is a sensitive topic with many variables that have dramatically effected the lives of many because of the actions of two people; the confusion of the families living this nightmare and trying to find solutions are finding the responses getting hostile and receiving contemptuous replies.<P>This attitude is not helpful and may disuade forum members from posting their points of view in fear of being lambasted by militant and judgmental members who seem openly angry and combative. <BR>I know you are intellegent enough to post your opinions without being so nasty. Besides, you're missing the point entirely and you are all so quick to jump on what someone has written with your own interpretation of what has been said.<P>I liked the post by dragan and even appreciated what she was saying about personal responsibility. I want to make sure I am not being guilty of misinterpreting myself, so I have to ask....when you mentioned the tobacco and alcohol industries, were you implying that they were pulling the wool over our eyes? That in the case of those two industries and their 'shenanigans', we are absolved of our personal responsiblity when duped into using their products? If that is what you meant, then we are dealing with 'selective' personal responsibility. If it was not what you meant, I misread it and apologize.<P>The Hide-Nailers here are certainly eager to split the forum when united we stand. All our problems are the result of an inappropriate relationship outside of our marriage and we have all been so badly hurt and damaged in some way, we need each other to get through the pain, sorrow, give eachother comfort, solutions and advise. There's no room here for angry attacks, childish name calling and hostile and nasty misinterpretations.<P>Come on, Kids, let's play nice. We really, really need your help and advise, not to be taken to task for having feelings and points of view you don't share for whatever your motive. We can tell each other what we think without being mean and insulting.<P>Catnip =^^= <P>

Catnip,<P>I've been on unmoderated boards filled with nasty posts, and the ones on this thread don't even come close. I think the majority of the replies are basically saying, <I>"hey, you knew what the possible consequences were beforehand."</I> We all know basic biology, and we all know the laws of our land when it comes to child birth, abortion, adoption, parental rights, etc. I agree that a few posts were pretty harsh and had a <I>tellin' you off</I> flavor, but by and large the majority were pretty tame. Plus, please don't forget it was Ras' insensitive reference to referring to those first few responders as the <I>peanut gallery</I> that probably set some people off.<P>Anyway, you hit the nail on the head when you said that people here are hurting from all sides of infidelity. Right or wrong, I think it's pretty understandable that those who are newly betrayed would hardly want to hear any betrayer singin' the <I>woe is me blues</I> and any betrayer who posts here in this forum has to know how that could be received. I used to post here frequently over a year ago, and I will definitely tell you that the <I>climate</I> here towards the betrayed has improved 200%.<P>Everyone's just trying to work things out. Maybe we should be more tolerant of each other in general, and understanding of those who might be having a bad day.

I've stayed out of this because, thankfully, none of my H's affairs resulted in children. However I will say h and I did discuss the possibility of this after discovery of his last affair. <P>To put it bluntly we agreed that if ow turned out to be pregnat we would seek custody. Not because of child support but because ow and her h were both cocaine users.And because that child would be a part of him, and thus a part of us (remember we become one flesh).<P>I have a sister who became pregnat during an affair she had, she was the married one , she gave the child up for adoption, mainly because her h left her no choice if she wanted to try to save her marriage.<BR>Giving that child up has caused her years of pain.<P>The best answer to this would of course be for people not to have affairs, but as we all sadly know that won't happen.<P>No it's not fair that the children and the betrayed spouse have to do without because this happens. But neither would it be fair that the totally innocent child concieved by the ow be deprived of food, shelter,clothing AND a father.<P>Ladies, if your spouse has created a life with another woman, that child is a part of him, like it or no. Why not direct some of the love you have for him toward that child ?<P>The day that in this country a man can say "Well yeah ,I had sex with her but I don't want her to have the baby" and a woman could be forced to have an abortion or give the child up or recieve NO support from the father of that child , will be the day I will be ashamed to say I am an American.<P><P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>

Deb--<BR> great post! Hope you are doing well...<BR>

I guess I am really curious. Have any of you betrayed wives dealing with OC taken on being a step-mom to the OC? Do you shut the whole thing out? Do you pay up and ignore? Do you send H off to visitation alone? <P>Haven't read anything yet that gives me hope that an OC ever gets to feel like part of any kind of family with dad. If the kid had been out-of-wedlock before you were married you would certainly be in a family relationship with him/her. Since you are determined to build a marriage with the dad . . . <P>Not trying to be judgmental. Sorry if it sounds tough. Just that I have a way soft spot for kids. And there but for the grace of God go I.

Karenina,<BR>Your posts are beautiful. What a good heart you have! Maybe your input will help show some BS's what is possible with love & time, (although after reading popeye's first post on OC forum wondering why so much compassion was being shown to a "bastered".), it may not be in this forum.<BR>

This issue is about nature and the nuances of the laws of nature created by God. God gave both man and woman the power to create a new life. This power is awesome yet all persons play with it as if it was minor and somewhat trivial. We all have unless we have abstained till marriage. Birth control or no birth control. Ask yourself if the power to procreate is not the supreme gift that God has given us. If this gift is not honored and cherished it can become a powerfully desructive force in one's life.<BR>And with respect to this gift God gave women the ability to nurture life to birth. He did not give this to men. He gave this to women for a reason. He knew that in order to bring healthy new life into the world an individual (the mother) would need to form an intense bond with the child. A bond that would allow for caring, nurturing and healthy development. Without this bond the chances for survival and healthy psychological and biological development is severely threatened. Simply put women and mothers directly have the power to alter society in ways that men can only dream of. Women have the gift from God to change the very core of a society from the bottom (children) up. They have the power to build foundations that men can only stand upon. This may sound like a bunch of gobbly-[censored]. But think for a moment about the power that women hold. It is theirs to embrace and accept. Fewer and fewer women are accepting God's devine mercy for original sin by giving then the power to change the world. Adoption, abortion and abandonment only strive further to deteriorate society; all in their own degree.<P>Women need to accept their responsibility for children as God saw fit. Finances, money, child support mean nothing when the will of the mother is congruent with God's will to nurture, love and rear a healthy human being that can effect the society.<P>Think for a momemt, if each mother today and tommorrow were extremely committed and focused on developing children that exemplified Ghandi, Christ or any other highly enlightened person. No matter the method or philosophy. The goal is important not the means. The world would begin to change overnight and we would feel it immediately.<P>Men have no such power, they were not given this by God. Men are to provide what is needed to see that the mother can freely do her mission. Men who ignore this or neglect this have not listened to God. Men need to provide support, love, care and attention to the home and society so that the mother can succeed. Men who run from this should be allowed to run. They serve no purpose. Other men should step in and do God's will. Let the non-supporter go. Focus on the core issues of love, dedication, care, attention and needs of the child; both psychological and biological, and God's will will be done. Both the mother and God will recognize this and perservere.<P>Think profoundly about children and you simultaneously think profoundly about the future of the human race. Diminish children and you diminish the existence of God and the future of the human race.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Karenna:<BR><B> Haven't read anything yet that gives me hope that an OC ever gets to feel like part of any kind of family with dad. If the kid had been out-of-wedlock before you were married you would certainly be in a family relationship with him/her. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why should the first family fall over and die because the betraying spouse had a child outside of wedlock with another person? I am sure the OW was not thinking of having sharing her child with his existing family. No she wanted to destroy the family, have the spouse for herself, and thought her child would do that.<P>Once the child is a reality everyone must run and do the "right thing" for the illegitimate child? There are a lot of people to consider here. Have some compassion for all of them. It is a difficult situation for all.<P>If the poor kid doesn't get to feel like a part of the family with dad, the poor mom should have thought about that before having it. Yes, I know it's both parent's responsibility, but some of you are really one sided in your arguments.<P>If the child had been born before there was a marriage, the circumstances would be entirely different. There would be no betrayal, no destruction of the current family, and choice.

Yes, I am a woman that took on the role of Stepmom before my H and I had our own children. H had a child with his ex-girlfriend (we were not yet married). I wanted nothing to do with this child in the beginning (common reaction). After the child was born and H began taking care of the child, I realized that if I wanted to have a future with this man then I would have to accept everything about him. So when the child was 1 month old, I told H that I wanted to meet his son. Since then that child is as part of our lives as our own children. Whatever we do, plan is always with all of our children. He is the older brother to my children and my H's first child and yes in the beginning it was very hard for me to deal with. But H made it clear to ex that I was the one that he was going to be with and that I was going to be a part of his son's life no matter what. Luckily, she never played the well, you can't see your child, i'm taking you to court nonsense. At first I hated the ex, couldn't hear her name without cringing, wouldn't even let her have our home number for years after my step-son was born. That was my anger and insecurity that I had to deal with. But time took care of that. We (ex and I) are friendly to one another, she was at our wedding, of course her son was H Best Man at the wedding. We dealt with it, no games. I think what helped is that H made his intentions clear from the beginning. We are a family and I couldn't imagine OC NOT being a part of my life and our life together. We made it work and now it isn't even a question of how, it just is as natural as taking care of your own children. Just wanted to give my part since people were wondering if anyone has ever incorporated the OC (ugly name by the way) into their life.