I don't know how many of you live in the New York area, but it seems we have the "all-infidelity" campaign coming up for Senate.<P>No, I'm not setting up a Hillary-bashing thread, though I'm sure some here will use it.<P>But it seems that her opponent. Rudy Giuliani, has been seen...frequently...in the company of an "Upper East Side divorcee", Judy Nathan. <P>And of course....you guessed it....they're "just friends."<P>Oy vey.<P>But do you think this will result in a discussion of what constitutes an "appropriate" male/female friendship?<P>I doubt it.

My feelings on male/female friendships are still up in the air. I do think that men and women can be just friends. But at the same time, part of me doesn't think it's always a good idea. Especially if one or both of them are having issues. Then things can easily cross a line. That's what happened to H. Our relationship was pretty bad, he met this woman at work, they began to talk to each other about there lives, and then we all know the rest. <P>------------------<BR>You can't live with them, you can't kill them!<BR>Viki

DC:<P>It seems that we know way too much about our politicians' personal lives with this age of instant as-it-happens news and up-to-the-minute play by play of their most intimate secrets...all revealed or to be revealed shortly. <BR>It was never this way before and they all got off scott free until this last decade when the media hounds went out digging up old bones. <BR>I often wonder how we would have thought of JFK had we known then what we know now. <BR>However, unlike our current commander in chief, JFK was a masterful and pragmatic politician that abhorred Cuba and didn't cow-tow to Fidel. JFK really truly accomplished amazing things and I believe had the best interests of the country at heart. I still love him even though he was a horrible betrayer, because he was at least faithful to his country. As far as we know.<P>Just be glad you don't have Jesse the Body as your Gov who is just in it for the photo op and self-engrandizement (sp?) and total self-interest. Plus, IMHO, he is a thin-skinned embarrassment and a big bone-headed boob. <BR>The people here were like sheep. They thought it would be 'cool' to have someone with his persona in public office, never mind he is completely unqualified for the job. They got what they deserve. I could die. <BR>Baaaaa, baaaaaaaaaaaaaa.<P>Catnip =^^=<P>PS My spouse's XOW lives in east Long Island. If she knows or cares anything about the political climate there in NY at all, she would probably think what Rudy is doing is A-OK.

My personal view (and I am in a college town so take that into consideration) is that men and women can be friends but here is the problem. Women can be friends with men and never want them sexually. Men will almost always want a woman sexually and if the opportunity arises will jump at the chance. Now, people that are more mature may be able to hold off from temptation but from what I know (from work and school) and read on here they are few and far between. Comments?

This is an interesting subject. One that I see differently today than a before my H's affair.<P>I believe an inappropriate friendship is one that in any way includes emotional connections that depletes or competes with one's marriage partner. One problem is that a male/female friendship may start innocently and ever so slowly inch toward inappropriateness that the parties involved are caught unaware until it they are well into the "danger zone". So therefore are appropriate friendships that have the potential becoming inappropriate, inappropriate because of their dangerous potential? <P>How do we as a society define infidelity? According to Presidential "standards", infidelity is intercourse. Although I think most defined his actions as inappropriate, there is no clear line where emotions or physical contact cross over into infidelity.<P>Then there is Amy Grant's example. She and Vince Gill (now married to each other) were "just friends" and stated they did not have an adulterous relationship. Hmmm. Even if you believe they did not have intercourse, I think they have a rather narrow definition of adultery and a broad definition of friendship if they believe the break up of both of their marriages and their quick marriage was innocent.<P>One can argue these are all private matters, and of course they are. However, as we continue to weave the fabric of our society, our definitions and what we accept will influence the future.<P>Despite race, creed or political ideals, I think it would be wise for everyone in our society to examine and protect marriages.

<Side note to Catnip><BR> I agree wholeheartedly with your take on our "esteemed" governor. He makes me want to puke.<BR>TNT

Obviously Mr. Giuliani's "friendship" IS a problem in his marriage:<P> <A HREF="http://www.salon.com/politics2000/wire/2000/05/10/giuliani_separation/index.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.salon.com/politics2000/wire/2000/05/10/giuliani_separation/index.html</A> <P>Again, it sounds textbook...separate lives (recreational needs not met?), needs being met by someone else, then separation.<P>It's just being done in a more public arena than the rest of us.<P>Thus far I haven't seen any discussion about this in the context of "emotional affair", but I wish it would come to the fore. Perhaps then people might realize that there doesn't have to be sex for an outside relationship to be a threat to a marriage.<P>Without casting any judgment on any of the parties involved, it seems to me that one (or both) of them should have come here first.

Time to put your writing skills to the test in a letter to the editor about emotional affairs....<P>Maybe it will prompt follow up articles.<BR>TNT

TNT:<P>I don't mean to crash DC's thread, but I didn't know you were from Minnesota-where abouts? <P>catnip =^^=

Pelican area

Ugh.<P>It gets nastier.<P>Now it looks like the Giuliani/Hanover "separation" is going to be played out in the press, for our "entertainment."<P>It's "he says, she says." Hanover said some thing yesterday that sound as if she had a kind of "wake-up call" a while back, and thought things were better.<P>It seems to me that we had a poster at one point who said her H was a "high-profile political figure." I wonder if it was her?<P>At any rate, it was impossible to avoid discussing it a bit at home last night, and NOT ONCE did my H say, "Well, they could be just friends. Just because he's having lunch with this woman doesn't mean he's f*cking her."<P>He seemed to feel that it was inappropriate behavior for Giuliani to be squiring this babe all over town.<P>Whether he relates this to his own behavior is another story, but at least it shows he ACKNOWLEDGES that something stinks there.

My gosh, Dazed. I am amazed! He really acknowledges something is stinking there? That is finally sounding like progress.<P>I would write the letter to the editor, and explain the poll results from marriage builders from the first page - about how you don't have to have SEX with someone to have an emotional affair.<P>Maybe your husband won't listen to you, won't listen to the experts - but he will listen if it isn't about "him".... Well, this is quite a round about way of addressing issues, but... ahem... whatever works!<P>TNT

See my comments at <A HREF="http://www.slate.com:" TARGET=_blank>www.slate.com:</A> <P> <A HREF="http://bbs.slate.msn.com/bbs/slate-framegame/posts/qv/24898.asp" TARGET=_blank>http://bbs.slate.msn.com/bbs/slate-framegame/posts/qv/24898.asp</A> <P>And join in! Maybe we can EDUCATE some people today!

Anyone in the NY area have nightmares last night after listening to news about this all day?<P>I did.<P>In this one, my own unconscious screenplay writer invented its own OW -- this one was thin (of course), dark haired, and predatory. A photographer. (Who knows where that came from.) H and I were at a party, and this babe gushed about what an interesting face he had, and started snapping his picture. He hates having his picture taken, but was flattered. Fast forward to him going to the bathroom, where he disappears for about 1/2 hour. Then I go up to the bathroom, she walks out, then him.<P>I start screaming at him, but (and this is how I know it's a dream ) he doesn't fly off the handle; he's very understanding.<P>But boy, did that hurt.<P>We went to buy air conditioners last night, found out that what we want to do isn't feasible and is too expensive, and he got very testy with me. I hate when he wants to shop with me, because he hates it, and wants to just buy and go.<P>That didn't help.