As you may have seen from prior posts, my wife has been having an EA turned PA over the last 7 months. She is completely in denial and a major conflict avoider. And now on the pill (She doesn't know that I found them but we haven't used that method of BC for over 6 years). OM has been over at my house playing with my kids, sleeping with my wife.....<P>We had a conversation about her moving out instead of me. I have been out for 2 months now and know that in order to get this solved she should be the one to move out. She won't. I tried talking to her about it from the point of view that I never really get to see the kids anymore. I spend about 25% of the time that she does with them.<P>My question is, I want to spend more time with them and want to repose the question to her. I would start with something like this:<P>"I know you are having an affair, you don't need to comment on that at all but I know its going on. (If she starts yelling or getting upset I will say you don't need to comment on it). I want to spend more time with the kids. I have equal access to them and feel it is best for them and for me to be more involved with them. ( I only spend about 4 days with them a month). If you feel that we cannot come to some kind of decison on this, I would like to bring in a mediator to see if they can resolve it. If you won't agree to that I am going to have to get a lawyer involved in this."<P>I know ultimatums are a major LB but I feel like I have reached the end of my rope. I can't deal with the constant lies and denial and completely hate that fact the OM spends more time with my kids than I do.<P>My other question is how do you get the WS to admit what is happening. Obviously conversation and hard evidence hasn't worked. <P>Why do I feel the need to be proactive in this situation? I am constantly trying to figure out ways to catch her and I am driving myself crazy. Do I feel that if it is out in the open that she will want to work things out? Why can't I just continue on Aing? I have been working on Plan A since December even before I knew of the affair, even before I knew Plan A existed and have had just about enough.

It makes it difficult that you have moved out of the house. If you can, move back in. Sleep on the couch or something. I you go to court, the chances are slim that you will get custody in you present situation.<P>Go over to the Fathers Rights to Custody homepage at <A HREF="http://www.deltabravo.net/custody." TARGET=_blank>www.deltabravo.net/custody.</A> They have tons of information that will explain this better than I could.<P>I am generally not in favor of drawing lines in the sand if you do not have the upper hand.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goober:<BR><B>How do you get the WS to admit what is happening. <BR>Why do I feel the need to be proactive in this situation? I am constantly trying to figure out ways to catch her and I am driving myself crazy. Do I feel that if it is out in the open that she will want to work things out? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You can't make them do what they don't want to do. My H wouldn't admit anything either until after he was confronted with evidence or until I just kept acting like I knew by taking it for granted in my words. In our case, admitting meant a step in the direction of other discoveries. The skeletons are falling out of the closet in droves now!<P>I think you need to feel proactive because you need to feel you have control over something that happened without your knowledge and involvement. That is how i felt too. I went looking for the truth, and more and more because I NEEDED to know. <P>As each thing came out into the open, my H really was more easy to talk to about it. It must have been a relief to carry such baggage for such a long time. The truth made me more involved because I felt like I needed to prop him up. It hasn't made us want to work things out, but it has made us have to face everything with honesty.

Hi Goober,<P>I like Grandpabri's suggestion of moving back into the house. Is there any legal reason why you can't do that? (i.e. protective orders or stay-away orders)<P>Like Grandpabri said, sleeping on the couch is possible. Or on the floor in a sleeping bag. You're not the WS, you're not cheating, and far as I remember, you didn't drink use drugs, beat your W. The kids may see your moving out as ABANDONMENT and resent you. (Ask me about this sometime; I don't want to take up space with ancient history; just want to comment on your present situation.)<P>Do you have a lease where you are now? If so You could deal with subleasing the other place. The important thing is to be with the kids. The leasing thing if it exists is just a business/legal matter to be dealt with. The kids are the main thing and your head and heart are directed toward them and not toward an outside love interest.<P>As to confronting W, she's in the state of Denial (ask her if she's seen my husband driving around there; he doesn't like to ask for directions) so I wouldn't advise a confrontation. Just a simple "I'm moving back in to be with the kids, we miss each other" or a de facto arrival with your bags and let her find you simmering a pot of chili on the stove, greet her with a big smile and a "Honey, I'm home!" (OOps sorry that's a wifey type thing but you get the picture.<P>Hope you go home, big fellah!<P><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

om should not be spending ANYTIME with the kids.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Legslly, there is no reason why I can't go home. In her eyes it would be a major LB. She is completeyl adament about me not being there. We have even tried to work out a schedule so that I can see the kids some more but she wont have any part of it. Right now I see the kids (4-2 years old) every other weekend and 2 nights a week. Becuase of her schedule she get 17-1/2 days with them a month and I get 4. Not really that fair.<P>I can understand why she won't leave. I mean why not, she has the house to herself, she can have OM over any time, she doesn't have to tell anyone where she is going. Its a nice life for her. If she moved out, she would have to explain to her parents where, why, what....I know the kids are affected by this but not sure how much, they are still young and because of our work schedules, W and I didn't spend that much time together anyway, we were passing the in the doorway anyway.<P>We own the house we are in and we are moving in late August to a new house of which we both purchased. I hope I can get this solved soon. Based on the fact that she just started taking the pill and has a three month supply, I guess I'll have to wait and see.

Why did you move out in the first place?<P>scandinavian<BR>

Goober, <P>Can you talk to Steve Harley about this moving back thing? <P>Here is my take on this: The kids are at a critical state in development - bonding takes place in the first 3 years. Where is Daddy? Largely absent. Do the kids understand about mommy and daddy's problems? They do not. They live in "kid time" where a minute feels like an hour and an hour feels like a week. Daddy's not around for days at a time. Will they blame Mommy for Daddy not being around? No, they will miss Daddy and resent his absence and feel that he abandoned them. Theymay even bond with the OM.<P>Mommy has a new guy and she's spending the requisite 15+ hours a week working on the relationship they have. <P>She doesn't want to spend 15+ hours a week one-on-one with you rebuilding. <P>The kids aren't getting the 15+ hours a week with you or with her - they're getting really short-changed. They will pull away emotionally, and could be that the younger one will fail to make critical bonding that can affect his/her ability to make healthy emotional attachments later in life and make good marriages and be good parents. <P>The kids need you. Sorry about the wife and her birth control pills (at least she's not making another infant) and sorry she is so adamant about you not being there. If you are there she may have the grace to be self-conscious and uneasy about her absences, and the OM can't come into the house, hang around, raid the fridge, watch the tv, and sleep in your bed (pardon me I have to kneel to worship the porcelain god in the master bath - hurl).<P>Please keep posting.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Bellevue (edited May 19, 2000).]

Well I did it. I'm back in the house. (Happy Dance).<P>I saw her Saturday and said (in a plan a tone) "I know you are having an affair, I know it is sexual. Please don't comment on it because I am tired of being lied to. Me being away allows you too much freedom in having him here so I am moving back in. You can stay or move in with your parents if you want. It's up to you. Keep in mind that if this ends up in court, your affair will come out and people will know about it. I am giving you the opportunity to step back and really figure out what you want to do for the rest of your life. I know we have issues to work on but what you are doing is complicating the issues. Nothing can be resolved while you continue the affair."<P>I'll tell you, it was very difficult to talk about but when I got home on Friday, I discovered the straw that broke the camels back. I won't get into details in case OM is reading this but I will tell you that I have concrete evidence about what happened in my bed on Thursday night (Hurl). Her butt looks good in a red thong though!<P>She kept asking me what happened and how I knew but all I said was that there is no point telling you because you having been lying to me for 6 months and I am tired of it. She kept prodding because she thought she did a good job in hiding it for this long. Finally I said to her "You f***** him in our bed on Thursday!"<P>She won't confirm what happened and even went as far as threatening me about things that she thinks happen on my business trips. Trust me, I have a clear conscious.<P>So that's it for now. At least I can start/continue Plan A from inside the house .<BR>Thanks to GOD and all of you for your support and help in helping me deal with this. I really believe that if she wants to try and work it out, I will be there. If she doesn't, using Plan a will help me to fall out of love for her and I will sign papers with my dignity, self respect and knowing I did everything I could to save the marriage.<p>[This message has been edited by Goober (edited May 21, 2000).]

Be very careful. Women have been known to call the police on trumped up domestic violence problems.<P>Happy Dance for you being back in your house with the kids!

Good for you goober. Glad you are back in the house. Sorry that you had to see stuff like that, but sounds like you did a good job preparing yourself for it. I wish I could move into my wifes apartment!! That would be a hoot!!! Well anyway, I wanted to say congrats, you did the right thing in my mind. Good luck, and ill be praying for you!

Good job!<P>Now one thing.<P><B>NO LOVE BUSTERS!<BR>NO LOVE BUSTERS!<BR>NO LOVE BUSTERS!<P>NO LOVE BUSTERS!<BR>NO LOVE BUSTERS!<BR>NO LOVE BUSTERS!</B><P>Get the idea? I would recommend you getting the book Love Busters and memorizing it (at least learn it very well.)<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Goober,<P>You did the best thing for yourself by moving back into the house...<P>I want to comment on 2 things...<P>1. grandpabri's reply on "domestic violence" charges...<BR><B>This is something to not take lightly</B>... My W called the police out once after an arguement and filed a report on me... and the police took her words to be 100% truth (it's the past record of men{in general} they were taking into account)<BR>...when I went to also file a report(my story)...<BR>...I was treated like vermen...<BR>...Like I was the worst piece of trash they had ever seen.<BR>.....I am not a saint... but there is <B>no way</B> she should have filed any kind of report...<BR>...and it was a terrible blow to my psyche...<P>I don't know where you are in your situation...<BR>...but... if need be...<BR>...as a form of self-protection...<BR>...get yourself a small micro-tape recorder and keep it on your person.<BR>I've recommended this to some of the women who needed protection...<BR>...and let me tell you... you need it too!<P>2. <B>Chris</B> is right again... right again... right again... right again... <BR>NO <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A>!<P>Now you'll say to me...<BR>..."isn't that in conflict with #1"...<BR>...and the answer is <B>NO</B>!<BR>Even Steve Harley, in my discussions with him, says that <B>protection</B> of you and/or kids is one time when something that might appear to be a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Buster</A>... <B>isn't</B>!<P>What are <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A>?...<P>"...Please don't comment on it because I am tired of being lied to..."<BR>...a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3402_disrespect.html" TARGET=_blank>disrespectful judgment</A>... shuting down her ability to talk with you.<P>"...Keep in mind that if this ends up in court, your affair will come out and people will know about it."...<BR>...a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3404_selfish.html" TARGET=_blank>selfish demand</A> of controlling her.<P>"I know we have issues to work on but what you are doing is complicating the issues."<BR>...again a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3402_disrespect.html" TARGET=_blank>disrespectful judgment</A>.<P>"...all I said was that there is no point telling you because you having been lying to me for 6 months and I am tired of it."<BR>...truth or not(and we all know it truth... but) still a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3402_disrespect.html" TARGET=_blank>disrespectful judgment</A>.<P>"...Finally I said to her "You f***** him in our bed on Thursday!"<BR>...an extreme <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3401_angry.html" TARGET=_blank>angry outburst</A>.<P>---------------------------------------<P>Plan A will isn't designed to "...help (you) to fall out of love for her..."<BR>...that is what <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>... is for! And you should first work at a good <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>!<P>"...I will sign papers with my dignity, self respect..." and "...knowing I did everything I could to save the marriage..." may <B>not</B> go hand-in-hand... especially if you plan to follow the MB concepts...<P>Do check out my older posts...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20000110-1-011323.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A - 101</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20000110-1-011046.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B - 101</A>.<P>Do consider (as Chris mentioned) getting the book <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6030_love.html" TARGET=_blank>"Love Busters"</A>...<P>Do check out an earlier post on cutting down on <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A>... see <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/002262.html" TARGET=_blank>How to say my feelings without it being a LB</A>.<P>I've been there guy...<BR>...it isn't easy... and I'm still there!<P> <P>Jim

Thnaks for the suggestions. I did take all LB's and into account before talking to her. I aslo know what kind of person she is and that the only way to prove what is going on is to walk in on them, may lead to violence, not my cup of tea. I know that this is best for me and the kids and I hope that it is a little bit of a realilty check for her. I am approaching her with kindness, I told her afterwards that I still love her. She has been coming at me with threats, saying really nasty things and I say little if anything after that. I am trying to be supportive of her knowing of the terrible position she is in and will continue on that path. I will read love busters to make sure I am doing the right things. I'm flipping back and forth from Surviving An Affair to His Needs, Her Needs. A good start but both books take it from the point of view that the affair is out in the open and there is an effort to rebuild.<P>It really is amazing listening to the extremely hurtful things coming out of her mouth. Normally I would fly off the handle but I know now that it really isn't her talking and thats the way I look at it. Its almost like watching "The Excorcist" though I havent started sprinkling holy water yet.<P>