Can I jump in?<P>I don't see the OM (the one who was the reason that brought me here in the first place) as scum. I see him as a player and someone who takes advantage of a weak moment. He may not have been 'on the prowl' but he used me nonetheless.<P>Yes, I am responsible for my part in the affair, which seems like a zillion years ago now... and I take full credit for my part in it. I wasn't a player though. I was a pathetic lonely woman who should have looked inward (both inside myself and my marriage) to fix things, but instead took the easy way out.<P>I understand Lacee thinking she'll get blasted. I bet every betrayer on this board has felt the wrath at one time or another. Having been on the other side of this thing, I remember the pain well. It sucks, no matter which side you're on. And let's face it, PAIN IS PAIN. IT HURTS.<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited May 24, 2000).]

No Mas (and Everyone)<P>Didn't you guys know that Ice Cream fixes everything?? Sheesh!!! What's the matter with us all??<P>Oops, sorry, craving.<P>Seriously, folks. It's no secret how I feel about the OM I was involved with. No, not every single element of their personalities were scum, BUT 9/10ths is a pretty big portion, don't you agree? They HAD to be selfish and at least a bit immoral to have indulged themselves in persuing a relationship with a married woman. And that's NOTHING compared to what I have to say about ME for doing my part.<P>No Mas, I suppose that if you truly love someone, you may not feel the same way. I think that all relationships are different and we all express and deal with love in various ways. I tend to be a black-and-white thinker (courtesy of growing up with a severly alcoholic family), so I guess I tend to love in black-and-white too in some cases. <P>True, one treated me like a penny waiting for change in the end. The other treated me a little better - like a nickle waiting for change, I guess. As I was distanced from the situation by time, I looked back and kept finding more things I disliked and did not respect one bit about the creeps. Now, I don't even think about them enough to find new things to disgust me about them. Metallica has a song out - "Don't want to waste my hate on you." How appropriate. <P>I'm sorry if it sounds crappy or wrong, but hey, these men helped me hurt my husband. They were sneaky, slimy, cowardly b*st*rds who thought it was OK to keep persuing me. They had no remorse, and they were using me. It goes without saying that I was the sneakiest, slimiest, most cowardly creep of all, and I allowed myself to BE used. At the expense of breaking my H's heart.<P>But I have changed. People can and do change. It took strength, it took courage, and tons of love and support from my Husband and I am getting closer to being ok with who I am slowly but surely.<P>But I will never be ok with how they were. And I've no regrets about that, period.<P>Khyra

Okay...<P>I think it's my fault that the whole "scum" issue came up. I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone, and I certainly didn't mean to lead anyone into a good "bashing" . But, in my humble opinion the man that I cheated with IS scum. If any of you ever met him, you would probably agree with me. I never meant to imply that ALL OP's are scum. I never meant that it's not possible for someone to NOT be in a fantasy land when they're having an affair. I think that every situation is different. I just stated MY particular situation and MY opinion.<P>Khyra: You brought up a good point. You said that the OM was the sneaky person who helped you to hurt your husband. I've never really thought about it in that way. But, it's true. The OM is the other man who cared so little about my husband's love for me that he took extreme measures to have something that wasn't his to begin with (me). And, much to my shame, I cared so little about my husband's love for me at that time that I allowed the OM to move-in on forbidden territory...wow...looks like I can be classified as "scum", too. Anyway, your statement hit home. Thanks.<P>Lacee: As usual, you "hit the nail on the head". You have such insight...I value your opinion...you help me to see things in a different light...thanks! <P>Peace to all...<P>Jill

Ok...got to throw this in.<P>Seems like a lot of men are characterized as these "monsters on a mission" who pursue poor, lonely, weak women. I am sure the world has its share of those types. I do not identify nor can I relate to men who take this route. That does not describe me in any way or form.<P>"pursue" - to follow in an effort to overtake or capture.<P>I can tell you, as my friend would affirm as well, I did not "pursue" her, nor did she pursue me. Period.<P>Amazingly, sometimes weak, human beings of the opposite sex just "happen to cross paths" and as most are familiar, you ignore or overlook little warning signs...and then, before you know what is happening, feelings develope. That huge brush fire in New Mexico two weeks ago...started out as a controlled fire. The winds picked up and it got out of hand. It happens with people's hearts also.<P>Someone said earlier, that breaking off contact IS simple...just not 'easy'. Good point. <P>But somehow, I feel like I'm missing something here. Imagine two people in a three legged race and the rope that tied their legs together is on there pretty snug. If you try to seperate and go your own way, without un-tying that knot, it causes a lot of pain and just "Tightens the knot". When you do "ease up", you are still together, soothing each other's wounds and growing closer.<P>So, my question, to the panel of experts here at MB Institute is this: How do you effectively "un-tie" the knot? <P>Keep in mind,<P>The knot is real.<P>The knot is tight.<P>The knot should never have been tied in the first place. But it was. And we can't get it undone. Throwing stones hasn't worked...anyone have a sharp knife? :-)<P>(just being funny here, I have somehow escaped much of the stone throwing that does go on here at MB. Not saying I don't deserve to get on across the head once in awhile!)

NoMas,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>anyone have a sharp knife? <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think you're onto something here. If you can't untie the knot you have to cut the rope. <P>That means doing whatever it takes to make contact with the OP impossible (like eliminating email accounts, changing phone numbers, etc.) It would be best if you had your wife's help with this part and have her change passwords on the accounts you used to contact her. but that would require that you tell her about it. I still think you should. The truth really does set you free. And if you ask for her help with the no contact, she will see that you are sincere about wanting to end it. Write the no-contact letter. When you feel like contacting her, write a letter to yourself about it or post here and we will be here to support you. Just like an alcoholic needs a sponsor in AA that he calls if he feels like having a drink. Let MB be your sponsor. When you feel like contacting her, come here instead. (If she's still lurking, that might not be such a good idea - ask a male MBer if you can email with him about this when you feel like you want to make contact instead.)<P>Cut the rope, NoMas. You can do it.

NoMas, I don't claim to be an expert. But I just finished reading Surviving an Affair, and it really made a LOT of sense to me, so I am going to parrot some Harley principles, okay? Keep in mind I am not thoroughly familiar with your situation right now.<P>At some point in the past, you were madly in love with your wife. You probably still do love your wife very much, but due to circumstances, that love has lessened somewhat; it's lost much if not all of the passion.<P>By cultivating a relationship (even though it began as an innocent friendship) with this other woman, you have built up your love for her until it's more than the love you have for your wife. You are deeply, passionately in love with her.<P>I think what it boils down to is, you HAVE to make a choice, and it can't be based entirely on 'feeling,' because as you know, you have extremely strong feelings for both choices. If you don't choose, you're stuck in this limbo causing intense pain to yourself, your wife, and the OW, and it's not going to solve itself. You aren't suddenly going to wake up one morning and know what you want to do.<P>So I think you just need to choose. Choose to commit to your wife, or choose to divorce and commit to the OW. If you choose to commit to your wife, you cannot continue a relationship with the OW in any way! Why? Because every time you see or talk to her, your feelings for her come rushing back, and probably even intensify. You probably haven't seen the personal 'downside' of being with the OW, so each encounter is a reinforcement of your love for her.<P>If you break it off with the OW, it will be very painful, that's a given. You have developed extremely strong feelings for her, and you can't just make those go away. But as soon as you break away completely, those feelings will gradually start to subside. You concentrate on your wife, and assuming you both are committed to improving and avoiding LBs, your love for her begins to increase. Gradually it grows stronger and stronger, until you are as madly in love with her as you ever were (if not more).<P>Your feelings for the OW will probably remain strong, and you will probably be depressed and anxious about it, for a long time. Maybe as long as six months - but almost certainly not longer than that, AS LONG AS you have truly broken off all contact.<P>I'm NOT pushing you to this choice, I'm just saying that if this is your choice, this is the way it should happen. If you do choose the OW, then you need to just go ahead with that choice and live with the consequences.<P>How do you make the choice? That is something that you have to search yourself for. What do you think is right? Disconnect your feelings, because you can't always trust your heart, the heart is often selfish and irrational. Think about where you want to be, and what you want your life to be like. Of course it's not an easy choice. But I urge you: make the choice. As I said, I'm no expert, but even I know that fence-sitting is not the way to handle this situation.<P>Ok, I'm done preaching. I hope that you can find a way soon.<P>Hugs,<BR>~Lori<P>[This message has been edited by Contrite (edited May 25, 2000).]<P>PS NoMas, I don't want it to sound like I'm talking down to you or insulting your intelligence. I know you've probably heard this stuff a million times before. I just thought it might be helpful to summarize one more time. Your decisions are your own! <P>[This message has been edited by Contrite (edited May 25, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Contrite (edited May 25, 2000).]

Hello NoMas,<P>Once I remember you writing that you are in the "battle of your life". In my situation it has helped to see my struggle as a spiritual battle. How do we fight battles? Here are some words that encourage me and remind me where to look for strength in "fighting this" ("how to untie the knot"):<P>"The LORD will fight for you; you need only to be still."<BR>Exodus 14:14<P>"For the LORD your God is the one who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies to give you victory."<BR>Deut. 20:4<P>Who/where shall you look for deliverance from this battle? <P>"O Sovereign LORD, my strong deliverer, who shields my head in the day of battle"<BR>Psalm 140:7<P>"The horse is made ready for the day of battle, but victory rests with the LORD". <BR>Prov 21:31<P>I don't think you are void of suggestions/advice as far as what to do. You already know all that: "cut off all contact", "change e-mail accounts, phone numbers", etc. In each of our situations we already know WHAT we need to do, but the struggle seems to be with HOW. I don't think you can fight this battle alone. I hope you won't take this as too simplistic. I just want to encourage you to look to the LORD to help "untie the knot". It is a place to start so you can take the steps you already know you need to do. I am praying for you. You are not alone in this.<P><P>------------------<BR>"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

Hey No Mas. Hours... try minutes now. No more pencils, nor more books....<P>Ok I'm having a serious party here.<P>How about another knot analogy. Sit down with it, and try to figure out how it got made in the first place, and then slowly, but surely disentangle it, or cut the darn thing and decide never to go near ropes again. <P>(Yeah two strikes, occasionally my pocket woman's libber comes out )

No Mas,<P>I have never ever posted before, but being a long time luker (6+ months) I am familiar with your saga.<P>Your analogy to a tight knot is a good one. However it immediately brought to my mind the legend of the Gordian Knot. <P>The phrase Gordian knot is most often linked to an intricate problem; especially a problem insoluble in its own terms...much like your relationship with OW. <P>The phrase comes from a knot tied by Gordius, King of Phrygia, and was held to be INCAPABLE of being untied but by one person...the future ruler of Asia. <P>Well, rather than try to untie a knot that was inacaple of being untied - Alexander the Great simply cut the knot with his sword!<P>....understand?<P>Good Luck

JUst a quick addendum to what I said earlier: I didn't mean to imply that men are the only ones who "persure," as we all know, women are some of the WORST offenders of that! So, sincere apologies, No Mas if you felt I was men-bashing, I really wasn't. I was MAN-bashing, the OM that is, not you, lol.<P>Another point, No Mas, it seemed to me that you implied that your affair just kinda happened in that there was no 'persual' occurrung on either of your parts. Well, obviously, I wasn't there to witness the drama unfold, but I can tell you that THOSE things don't 'just happen.' They are caused. <P>It just seems to me that you do love this woman. She has come to mean very much to you thru all of this. But, you must make a decision, one way or the other. Unless the two of you have bills or kids together, there is no reason other than your hearts why this cannot be completely and permamently severed. If you have made the decision to be with your wife, then do it. You end up hurting a person far, far worse when you flounder in your choice. <P>What you have to do is hard. What you just put your wife thru is even harder. You are in charge of what you do about your feelings, not nature, not chance, not some supernatural force - YOU. That is at once a scary and empowering fact.<P>Khyra <P>

Oh yes... those things do "just happen"....<P>When you met your spouse... did you love them immediately? Or did you just one day... realize that the feelings you were feeling... had to be love?<P>Ever become a frend with someone and then one day... suddenly realized that those feelings of concern and compasion are the feelings of love? <P>We had a friendship and then the realization came... ta da... We should have known that being that close a friend to someone was only going to become love... (our mistake) But it happened... I remember the precise moment when I realized it... I was so scared that I had to go off by myself and literally chant to myself.. "This is not happening... No... I am mistaken..."<P>Don't any of you have a friend of the opposite sex that you are close to? Better be careful... cause one day... if you're not careful... BAM! You might just realize that you feel more for them than you ever intended to...<P><p>[This message has been edited by Lacee (edited May 25, 2000).]

I agree with Lacee. It just sneaks up on you. You find yourself in a position you never dreamed you'd be in. One thing I learned is that no-one is immune. It can happen to anybody if you're not paying very close attention to the warning signs. Those signs can be subtle.

I agree with Lacee too...<P>In 19 years, through my stbx's many affairs, I never cheated. I came close to wanting to a few times throughout the years, but I just couldn't do it, never even came close. Plus I always thought my H was the most gorgeous man on the planet, and I adored him, even if he didn't adore me. <P>Then it happened, and frankly, nobody was more surprised than me. Did I plan it? Nope. I cried when the OM kissed me (in my office no less, so no big plans to meet anywhere), but yes, I continued on and eventually slept with him once. I don't need to relive it all, but I will say again that I suffered in a way that only betrayers who are remorseful understand. I wanted to die. And it wasn't because I was caught. It was because it was wrong and I felt like a whore and an embarrassement to God (not to mention myself and my family)...all of whom I had turned away from. Unfortunately for me, my dear H decided that his several affairs of the early years were not sufficient to pay me back for my indescretion, so he found another OW. It is a merry-go-round, and I've stepped off the ride. I've gotten dizzy.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited May 26, 2000).]

Funny....how my situation here has helped me understand some of my 5th and 6th grade students. There are always those few...who fail many of their subjects....all the time it would seem. And they don't really seem to care.<P>My failures and weaknesses that have manifested themselves this past year...have taken a toll on me. You feel so defeated...so, "left behind" from where "you should be", that you lose the incentive to try anymore. Like the kid who is two laps behind all the other runners in a race...must think, "why even bother running anymore?" I'll never catch up.<P>I look across my room these days...and see those kids sitting there...and I understand their futility. You can fuss, holler, point out things, but in their mind, they think "why bother?" <P>Just rambling here...feeling like I've lost so much ground in my life and marriage this past year. I sure understand the mind/heart of those who just "walk away from it all".<P>If/when....I ever get through this...I will sure look at others in this place with different eyes. I hope I will be able to give them some answers and directions out of this 'valley'.<P>And by the way...I didn't think anyone was bashing me, or implying I pursued anyone. And my friend did NOT pursue me. We were both...in a tired place in our own marriages, and we 'stumbled across' each others path...and found refuge in each other's hearts. Like two lonely wanderers in a dark jungle, we began to walk together to find our way out. Spending that kind of time together, we were bound to grow comfortable with each other.<BR>Yes...It did "just happen". And...I will never regret meeting her. I feel bad that I let our hearts suffer in the manner that they have. I wish I could have been stronger and more helpful.<P>You've all encouraged me to come here and post to "vent" when I needed to...so here I am.<P>***sigh***

NoMas:<P>As a betrayed whose H "sat on the fence" for 8 months, all I can say is, if you have any love for your wife at all, if you and she have any history that means something to you at all, consider the pain you are causing her by continuing to vacillate, by clinging to your option to leave her and go to the OW. She is dying a slow death -- already her self-esteem has been rocked to the core. Obvously, the OW is a also hurting, but my experience of 13 months since discovery still makes it really hard to feel compassion for a woman who betrays her own sex by getting involved with a married man.<P>PLEASE, get off the fence. Obviously we don't like doing something that we know will result in pain. But, we still go to the dentist so we have teeth left in our heads in old age. We still go through embarassing and maybe painful medical procedures so our quality of life will be maintained. Every day that goes by without your making the final choice imperils your own mental, emotional, spiritual, and physical health and that of your wife, just the same as if you never saw a dentist of a doctor. Do it for yourself, as well as the sake of the 2 people you feel love for.

All right...waiting for the student/teacher analogy... <P>Did you as the teacher know in your heart of hearts that those students who perpetually fail could pass if only they believed in themselves? You could see their potential and knew if just the right situation came along it would open their eyes and they'd see the way...<P>Keep looking for the way NoMas...it's out there and you have the potential.

NoMas,<P>I feel for you guy - really. I was once where you are right now. Exactly where you are. I agree that this is definately a CHOICE that you must make for everyone involved. I don't envy you right now. It's truely an awful place to be.

Hang in there NoMas...<BR>Some of us know exactly what you are going through and just how hard it can be... And others are learning from you just how hard it can be.. that is a good thing...<BR>Try to relax through the weekend...<BR>Take care...

Looks like I need to clarify again.<P>Keep in mind, I consider you guys to be friends, and I don't aim to say things that hurt or anger you. But I do say what I feel, especially when I feel this strongly about it. So, please read this with an open mind, keeping in mind that my goal is to communicate a point of veiw which may differ greatly from yours.<P>I understand, contrary to what's been said, the fact that EAs can and usually do happen with a stealth and a strength which ended up taking those of us who were caught up in one with suprise. <P>The hardest part for me was figuring out when I stopped caring enough to keep the wall I had build around my heart from crumbling into decay, allowing feelings for the OM to come in and invade. When, exactly did I decide to stop keeping my distance and using my self-control?<P>Well, I might never know to the second when that moment came. But I do know that my feelings for the OM grew as a result of me letting him get that close to me. As a result of my failure to use self-control and take responsibility for my own actions. <P>Finally, when the affair progressed (uh, decayed?) to the point of being physical, that also didn't JUST HAPPEN. Obviously. <P>Maybe it's because I have never been deeply in love with anyone but my H, not even the OM, but I just am not comfortable in agreeing that I don't have any control over what my emotions become. To me, that's like saying that at anytime anyone can come along and I could just fall in love with him. Just because he was 'special.' or because my needs weren't 'getting met.' I know that I have a choice in the matter, I'm not Cinderella or Snow White who just falls in love.<P>Yes, it did take time and the onset of my love for my H was insidious, but I knew what was happening, and I was glad of it. So was my choice to begin cheating on him, but I knew what was happeneing then, I just made the decision not to stop it.<BR>Khyra<p>[This message has been edited by Khyra (edited May 26, 2000).]