I am sorry that the betrayers who participate on this forum feel offended and hurt by the words of those of us who have had our lives torn apart BY OTHER PEOPLE. I am fully able and willing and HAVE taken the responsibility for my part in the problems in my marriage.<P>HOWEVER - there are sluts and whores in the world who go after the husbands of women like many of us here. Some of them simply enjoy the idea that they can take someone away from someone else. I do not generally use words like that, but I refuse to start speaking softly and kindly about a woman who, if she hadn't been stopped by someone, would gladly have physically assaulted me. I refuse to feel sympathy toward a woman who has written the kinds of things that this creature has written to me (do a search in the read-only forum on my username). I refuse to forgive someone who TO THIS VERY DAY feels the need to talk about me to other people as if I was some kind of pathetic mental case. The slug is a cruel and selfish b*itch, and I will defend my words because they are FACTS.<P>As for how I defend my attitude toward my husband: I made a vow to love, honor and cherish him for better or worse. I made no such vow to the slug.<P>I do understand that betrayers feel pain. And when your spouses are cruel to you or leave you because of it, even though you are willing to work hard to make it up to them, I feel sympathy for you. But, I cannot feel that same sympathy for people like the slug - and I don't intend to try. She is despicable and I despise her.<P>If this is offensive to betrayers, I'm afraid I can't sympathise.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I can see clearly now,<BR>the rain is gone ...

New begining... nice try but pathetic just does not have the emotional impact that the word whore does. Plus I will admit to feeling pathetic alot of the time.<P>I think what we are trying to say though is that we do not lump together all who have affairs. We can tell the difference between those who made a mistake, are confused, have some mixed feeling about it and those like Terri and Resiliants OW who have done it multiple times, do it gleefully, and harass the wife. I do not think my H OW is a whore. But I would say some I have heard of here are. I cant recall anyone who has posted that I would consider one. We are all here for the same basic purpose, to heal from this. <BR>Lora

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>You don't go to a gathering where there are mixed races of people and start telling racial jokes or speaking of someone you don't like using racial slurs... it isn't acceptable and it isn't right.... so why do it here?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Big difference here, people don't <B>choose</B> their race, they are born a certain race, people <B>choose</B> to have affairs, so to me, there is a huge difference.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Sadly, another definition for the word "Whore" refers to your spouse as well as the OP... <P>verb intransitive<P> 1 : to have unlawful sexual intercourse as or with a whore</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, if the OP is going to be continued to be viewed as a whore, than the spouse should be viewed in the same light, they like the OP had free will and made a conscious, thought-out decision. If the spouse is not going to be viewed in the same light, then it seems to me that excuses are still being made for that spouse, which to me is just as much about being in a fantasy as the affair was.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>My H basically referred to me as a slut on a few occasions right after he found out...it was like he had forgotten the person that I really am.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I did the same thing as your husband, and it was because if you take the literal definition of the word, as hurtful as it may seem that I'm being right now, the word fits. <P>After the initial shock and pain subsided a bit, I knew that calling my wife these names was not helping at all, so I stopped calling her sluts and whores. I told her that I "hoped" that she was still the "good person" that I married, and that I didn't view <B>her</B> as a slut or a whore, but her <B>behavior</B> was definitely sluttish and whorish. This may or may not be acceptable to some of the people here on this site, but I did "try" seperate the person from the behavior. As far as your husband "forgetting" the person that you really are, was it your husband that forgot, or was it you? It was your behavior that caused him to look at you differently, he didn't just wake up one morning and start calling his wife a slut. I know how your husband feels, when you initially find something like this out, it's not that we have forgotten who you really are, we no longer know who you really are, the person that we thought you were, wouldn't have done the something like this. It takes years to build up trust, and only one second to destroy it. You, like my wife, have left us "wondering" if this is the "real" you or was this just a "blip" on the screen, and it's up to you and her to "prove" to us <B>over time</B> that you are who you say you are.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by F A (edited July 19, 2000).]

OH MY!....<P>My H's OW is a beautiful, loving, caring individual that simply made a "wrong turn". I wish her peace and happiness....WITH ALL MY HEART.<P>Some inspiration for us all:<P>If we practice an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, soon the whole world will be blind and toothless. ~Gandhi<P>To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover the prisoner was YOU. ~unknown<P>I will permit no man to narrow and degrade my soul by making me hate him. ~Booker T. Washington<P>Peace to us all, ~Marie<BR>

At MB, at THIS gathering, we all knew there were betrayed and betrayers when we got here. <BR>We are both here for help... <BR>both here to share our experiences... <BR>both here trying to work on our marriages... both here are hurting... <P>If we were all together in a room, actually looking into each others eyes, would it be just as easy for you to call the OP a Whore? <P>FA, very true we do not choose our race. But that wasn't the point now was <BR>it? The point was manners and courtsey. <P>Here at MB, we should all be treated with respect for what we are here trying to accomplish. Without prejudice or discrimination or being made feel uncomfortable. We are all here looking for help in doing the right thing... <P>Marie, beautiful inspiration! You are a very unique woman..

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>If we were all together in a room, actually looking into each others eyes, would it be just as easy for you to call the OP a Whore?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It would be very, very easy to call the OM a whore, if he happened to be in the room with the rest of us, it would also be very, very easy for me to kick his A#$ as well, unlike the people on this site who are here seeking help, my W's OM could care less, during my conversation with him shortly after discovery, he called my W "an opportunity that presented itself", and a "whore", so it would be no problem for me at all.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>FA, very true we do not choose our race. But that wasn't the point now was <BR>it? The point was manners and courtsey.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree that everyone here should be treated with respect and courtesy. I am assuming that everyone here is here because they are trying to make things better, make things right. The example that you used just made me raise my eyebrows because it seemed like you took something that we have no choice over(race) and compared it to something that we do have control over(fidelity), and to me there is a huge difference. <P>I am not trying to offend anyone or disrespect anyone, but I haven't seen any posts where a betrayer was called a whore or a slut. I admit that I haven't read every posts on every thread, but could it possibly be that some people are being a little over sensitive? If I call my W's OM a low life, snake in the grass, Son Of A BI#%$, that doesn't mean that I am talking about anyone on this board, there may have been something that this person did specifically outside of the affair that causes him to be called that. <BR>I would only say that if you are here and you are trying to make amends I wouldn't consider you to be a whore or a slut, but those who have done this kind of damage and feel nothing about it, I can only say if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck.......then it's a duck.<P><BR>

Marie,<P>Your post is incredibly touching. With those quotes, you've exactly hit upon what doesn't feel right (to me) about downgrading *anyone* (at least openly) to whore, slut, or dog status - "two wrongs won't make a right".<P>Yet, I can understand some of what terri mentions. Think about it, do we feel the same for cold-blooded killers, murderers, and rapists among us? - their actions have made them cold and calculating, with no value for the sacred in human life. I can certainly understand where betrayers, (including me!) might be thought of in a harshly negative fashion for what looks like, at least, a blatant disregard for the sacred in marriage. However, there is also the matter of the not so blatant disregard in terms of marriage, and the two sides to every coin, and I guess that's what makes hearing terms like "whore" and "slut" so shocking. In the future, I will not personalize, and try better, to understand where the individual writer is coming from in using such terms. This thread has helped me to see that a bit more - so thanks again. <P>Delilah

(I also posted this in "definition of whore" topic below)<P>I don't like labels. I'm also a stickler about semantics. When I refer to my H's OW, I simply refer to her as an adultress, because that is the most semantically appropriate label I can think of without name calling or flowering her up with romantic names like "mistress" or "lover" or, even worse, ambiguous descriptors like "my h's friend" (sorry ... I don't sleep with my "friends!). I also tend to refer to my H as an adulterer. To me, these words are laden with meaning, as per my beliefs that cheating is morally wrong, and yet it's not casting someone down in an entirely negative light. <P>I think that my H's adultress (OW) was actually pretty nice to him, and in any other circumstances, I think that we could have been friends. Mutual friends who describe her say that she was like a lesser version of myself, but I think they only think this because she was the adultress in the situation, and that prevented them from viewing her in an entirely positive light. If she hadn't been an adultress, maybe we would on an equal level. But simply the fact that she did what she did made her and him, in our mutual friends' eyes and in my own eyes, people who weren't really morally astute at the time the EMR was going on.<P>This is my feeling on the subject: you only wear the label as long as you're committing the crime, IMHO. Once I know for a fact that my H has severed contact, he will no longer be an adulterer, and she will no longer be an adultress.<P>belld<P>

I had to hope in on this post. I have been trying to get into full recovery with my wife who has been having an EA/PA with OM who lives across the street for almost two years. I have Plan Aed my butt off over this time and am about ready to go to Plan B. <P>Though many times I have felt like calling her the above mentioned names. I have never been able to utter those words, which to me have such a negative associated with them.<P>To Sobeit and the others who have betrayed and post here. I have a tremendous amount of respect for you in your efforts to repair your marriage and find out what went wrong (on both sides). It is not easy to relive something that went so wrong in your life and to have people take shots at you. I have found your side(s) of the story very helpful as I try to figure this whole mess out. So please find comfort that you are helping people like myself get through a period that is very dark and am learning a great deal from your side of the story. <P>I would give anything for my wife to come to this site to really understand how much hope there can be. I am sure it is very painful for you to relive some of the hurt that has happened on both sides.<P>With all that said, I would like to try and provide you with a point of view that may or may not make sense. In general we are living in a socitey in which many people refuse to accept the consequences of their actions. Or if they do they one someone to forgive them right away or blame others. I am not saying this has happened in Sobeit's case or some of the others. <P>But again in general we hear people that have committed crimes blame it on their upbringing and someone that maybe had beat them. How many times do we hear I shot up the school because I watched something on TV or heard someone say something that pissed me off. That caused my reaction and I can not be held responsible. <P>I was listening to an interview of a jury member that was dealing with a white coller crime in my hometown. He said that he found the convicted person very sorry for his actions and asked the court to find him not gulity. He was a family man and by all accounts a very good person expect for this major mistake. The jury member agreed that he was a good family man and by all accounts seemed like a good person.<P>But his comment is what stuck me. He said that though this man was a well respected businessman, he clearly knew what he was doing was wrong at the time he did it. His excuses for his actions were not valid for what happened. He convicted him and because of this mistake he is now in jail. Point being he clearly knew what was right and wrong here. He took the chance of not being caught and he is now paying for it.<P>Sobeit and other betrayers, everyday I have to look at myself in the mirror and know that I did play a part of getting my marriage to where it is today. I did many things wrong and now I have to pay for it with this affair. But as my wife and I have discussed there where many other options then the path she took. I am sure I would have woke up (as she says) if she had told me she was falling in love with someone else. <P>I am more then willing to accept my part of the failure of our marriage. But I can't accept that her actions where caused by me when there where many other less destructive options. I also can't forgive everything right away and sweep 2 years of pain under the rug. I want to understand what happen so it never happens again.<P>We are all here because we are hurting and want someone to understand our point of view.<BR>I assume we all want to become better people and learn from our mistakes on both sides. <P>I don't know if this makes any sense. I just hope we can all take away something from both sides and pass on what we have learned to others as we go through our journey in life. <P>Sobeit and other betrayers, please don't take this the wrong way. We are all responsible for our actions and often times the pain on the betrayed side is so great that it overtakes the pain you are going through. <P>Zip

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lacee:<BR><B> If we were all together in a room, actually looking into each others eyes, would it be just as easy for you to call the OP a Whore? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Unfortunetly "YES" Lacee, it would be easy for me to call this woman a whore or slut to her face. I feel bad about it but I do feel this way for now.<P>I would never go out of my way to do it or initiate any contact with her, BUT if she contacted me face to face, YES, I would call her what she is.<P>I've never professed to be Mother Teresa, or a Saint by any means, I am so dang human, more human right now than probably I have ever been, it's raw emotion and what she has done and is doing isn't right. <P>My prayers are for me to someday somehow find forgiveness in my heart for her, but right now it's not there and I am still trying to survive under her unsolicited threats, abuse and mistreatment.<P>So again "YES", I would tell her what I feel she is.<P>Jo

Ok, time for my 2 cents worth. I personally will call the OW in my H's life the "skanky ho" for the rest of my natural life and I don't feel an ounce of remorse or shame for it. And I will NEVER apologize to her either. However, I have never called you one and I have never lumped all OW's into the "ho" category...only my own personal OW has the distinction of "skanky ho". Sorry if you don't like it...oh well. She is inhuman to me. She thinks the "love" she and my H have is perfect and beautiful (her words) despite the fact that his stbx-wife tried to commit suicide (me) and his children are having problems. She thinks of no one but herself. You however, obviously have a conscience. I just wanted to clear up that when I say "skanky ho" is it specifically addressed to the OW named Julie D. AKA "pretty ann" AKA "blue eyes" AKA "Julie Ann" AKA "skanky ho" (the last one's mine . )<P><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

Keridwen,<P>I can understand where you are coming from. I would be able to forgive the OW in my H's life if she showed an ounce of remorse, or if she took her share of responsibility in acknowledging that getting involved with a married man was just plain WRONG. If she apologized to me for her share of the pain. You know, I have never been tempted by a married man, and I never will. I cannot ever see a circumstance where I would have sex with someone else's spouse. No matter how bad their marriage was (or rather, proported to be), no matter if the couple were separated, no matter WHAT, I would walk away. <P>It plagues me that the OW in this case still has the BALLS to want to be my H's "friend." She seems nice enough, but at times, I want to ask her, "Were you raised by wolves? Have you no concept of what is permissible in a marriage, between two people? Do you *know* the deep, deep pain, anger, resentment, and grief that this has caused me? Do you understand that I was almost suicidal because you were f*cking my H? Why are you asking me to make such a big sacrifice, for your own personal gain?" Of course, I know why. Because she still wants to [censored] my husband. It's as plain as the day is long.<P>I want to ask her these things. I wish that she knew what it was like, for one fraction of a second, to feel the way I did for those six months while she and my H were living together. I wish I cared how she felt, but I simply do not. She knew what she was getting into. She has NO RIGHT to ask for my husband's friendship, and NO RIGHT to ask my blessing on this unholy alliance. It drove a stake right through the heart of our marriage. And yet she wants to be a continual reminder of what I consider to be the darkest period of my life.<P>What a ---- <P>Wait. Stop. Breathe. Okay.<P>What a really immoral way to conduct one's life.<P>belld

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by belldandy:<BR><B>What a really immoral way to conduct one's life.<P>belld</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Amen Belldandy! Amen Amen Amen!<P><BR>Thank-you ...<BR>Jo<P><p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited July 19, 2000).]

Dear friends: I want to thank everyone who responded. As I said in my earlier post, I do understand the anger that the betrayed feel. I also understand where the anger from each is geared toward and not to me or others on this board personally.<BR>As I also mentioned earlier that there are those who do not take responsibility for their actions. I don't know the reasonings for their actions. Reasons could range from personal gain, a challenge, savior mentality( I am saving this MW or MM from his evil spouse) or they might not feel that they are doing anything wrong. In my job I deal with these type of folks often and it is difficult to get them to realize that their behavior is unacceptable or to accept responsibility. The brain is complexed. I am not making excuses for your thorns in disguise, but maybe providing some insight to their behavior. Especially those that I have heard seem to enjoy making your life miserable.<BR>NO, it still does not make it right and there may be more to the story than the examples I have given. I will not argue with you over that. <BR>However, you might want to think who's important here. I have heard a few mention suicide. Is the OP worth it? Are you letting the OP get to you and your children? When it was me on your side, I used my anger to rebuild myself. It took me awhile and I will admit that I am still working on me, but I looked at my children(because they are my life) and decided they are my focus. I will not let them go down with the ship. So, I took measures to get them involved with outside activities, took them on day trips, listen to their opinions, had picnics in our backyard, ate lunch with them at school, took them out to eat when we had extra cash, went to free concerts anything to keep their minds focused on the positive. They knew what was going on with their father and I, but they also knew that I wasn't going to let that get in my way to better us. My children, up to this day, when they see my spouse's former female friend, they will either glare at her or block the aisle that forces her to go the other way. I have seen her do an about face when she sees us. My kids never heard a bad word about my spouse despite the troubles we were going through, but they knew. <BR>In regards to myself, I continued with college, exercised(part of my OCD), read alot and just enjoyed the time I had with my children. When my kids started leaving, it became increasingly difficult for me so off I went to the other side. I learned my lessons the hard way. <BR>I am still trying to deal with the empty nest syndrome. I have one more left and I am scared. <BR>I am so sorry for being long-winded, but I hope I gave you some ideas on how to put yourself and your children first since you can't control the situation between OP and your spouse. <BR>I know that there will be decisions that you will have to make, steps you will have to take to better your relationships or end them and my prayers will be with you. <P>Everyone hold your heads high and think positive thoughts. We will get through this.