OK...I must admit I am a marshmellow in many ways. I try to accomodate everybody all the time. One factor in my own case is I really am pretty flexible, a go with the flow type person, so it is easier for me to adapt than many other more structured people. The exception is no one can get me to compromise a value. When I do take a strong stand, it surpises people. Many times, however, strong willed people have taken advantage of my good nature and I end up feeling used. <P>In my marriage, I have been in Plan A mode since the beginning. My H has no idea how nice I am to him...since he is clueless he thinks a persons public side is the only side and most are pretty well behaved in public. He is getting better about being discerning about people. But he has tended to railroad me because he has the more forceful personality and being the Queen of Conflict Avoidance, I accomodate rather than negotiate or plan old say no. I can see that this is partly my own fault because my bounderies are blury. He would expect me to disagree if that is how I felt, but when I do, he agrues his point and I scidattle once again to avoid conflict. Good plan in short term, but the long term effect takes its toll on any relationship.<P>We must establish good personal bounderies to maintain a forgiving spirit. Otherwise you will revisit your anger and resentment as the other person continues to violate your relationship. So what are some signs that you may have a problem with assertiveness or bounderies?<BR> <BR> Are you too cooperative and do not communicate your feelings of displeasure or disagreement?<P>Strong-willed people seem to be able to wear down your resistance?<P>Do you state your opinions and preferences but that doesn't mean others listen?<P>Are you a conflict avoider?<P>Do you put more effort into relationships than the other person?<P>Would people be surprised to learn that you are really not as upbeat as you appear?<P>You say yes when you'd like to say no?<P>Even in close relationships you do not say what you feel?<P>Does it seem others do not take you seriously?<P>Do people take advantage of your good nature? <P>Do you feel manipulated?<P>Do you feel frustrated that people don't consider my needs as well as they should?<P>If you agree with 7 or more, you may feel disillusioned with your relationships. Although you can not always changes peoples attitudes and feelings, you can monitor your own behavior if you are unwittingly enabling others to persist in their insensitivity.<P>The bible instructs us to be angry without sin and to speak the truth in love. With that in mind, forgiveness is possible as long as you correctly manage your anger and take measures to minimize mistreatment.<P>This comes back to the healthy legitimate anger idea that we studied which preserves your personal worth, needs and convictions. Without healthy anger you will be imbalanced in your relationships. The communication of healthy anger leads to the establishment of healthy boundaries. You declare yourself a valuable person who should be taken seriously. Unlike aggressive or resentful anger, however, you need to communicate your bounderies without condescension or harshness so you do not become mean spirited, but you can be firm or even unbending if necessary. How?<P>1. Learn to say no. While a cooperative spirit is desirable, it should not conflict with inner peace.<P>When you say no, be prepared for a negative reaction, but do not lose your resolve. If you don't like "being the bad guy" rephrase it like you do not appreciate other people labeling you the bad guy when their manipulation fails to work on you anymore.<P>2. Do what is right, even if others do not agree. You may need to show that you are committed to fair play, healthy living, honesty and integrity, and that may mean choosing your own path. You can not count on others to hold the same priorities or too have the same understanding of situation. It is your responsibility to remain true to solid convictions to ultimately communicate the truth in ways that words alone may not accomplish.<P>3. Know when to admit your limits, asking for help when necessary. It is common for people that try to meet the needs of others that you can be so nice you overlook the fact that you are limited in what you can actually do. Sometimes we also believe no one knows or cares about our needs, when we do not express them or the violation of them. This of course hinders forgiveness. Most people will not take the time to contemplate your feelings or how they can help you. To educate them may require unapologetic speech and it may require that you choose not to backpedal once you've expressed yourself. <P>4. Confront problems as they arise. Usually the inability to forgive is heightened with the passing of time. The longer you go without standing up for your convictions, the more difficult it will be to address. <P>5. Establish consequences when Necessary. Remember that you will have to back up your words with action because you are probibly dealing with people that are not understanding. It is not pleasant, but it may be the only way to be taken seriously. Words will go right past manipulative or insensitive people. Your firmness may bring flack, but if to move forward in forgiveness it in necessary.<P>It is not your job to make others like your boundaries. You may find that others will continue inappropriate behaviors and attitudes. You have to let go of the fantasy is the assumption that you can change the thinking of the other person. <P>The chapter ends with the idea of delicately detaching from the person you are setting bounderies with. In marriage, I think this would be difficult. Actually I just ordered a book about Bounderies in Marriage, so maybe I'll gain more insight. I get disconnecting your sense of contentment from the person's response to you. That means not letting someone else control your emotions. I know I have the tendancy to hope that my H would one day wake up and see my cooperative spirit as a cherished asset instead of a given...but you can never make another person think anything.<P>So there it is...does this make sense? How can we walk that delicate line in marriage? Not to be sexist, but is generally harder for woman? <P>If you want to look up steps 1-3, they may be over 10 days old, but they are under Forgiveness Workbook discussion, Legitimate Anger and #3 Uprooting Bitterness.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

I appreciate all the time you are taking, posting these forgiveness workbooks. They are truly enlightening, and although I haven't added anything to your posts, I have read them enthusiastically.<P>This one I am going to print for my H. He has always had a hard time disagreeing with me or taking a stand on different issues, because he does not like to have conflict. However, I would like him to learn these skills because it is so stressful for me to make all decisions in our lives! It also makes me feel that he doesn't love me enough to tell me his true feelings. The difference between me and your H, maybe, is that I know my H has these thoughts and I do care to hear them, he is just afraid to speak up. <P> thanks again for bringing these issues out for all of us to learn from!<BR> tamis

FHL, FHL!!!<BR>Sent you a note. I'll be back. I have to go paint the trim on the house.

FHL - Very interesting. A year ago, when my marriage was starting to unravel, i would have answered mostly "no" to these questions. Now, I find myself mostly answering with a "yes". I'm trying to figure out what that means. I think a good Plan Aer will probably answer 'yes' to most of these. As progress becomes noticable from the wayward spouse, you can start placing negoitated limits in your relationship. Maybe I'm just rambling.<P>Thank you for these questions.<P>SHA

FHL<BR>I just have a minute. Waiting for the first coat to dry.<BR>Now the title of this chapter is "Assertiveness helps Forgiveness"<BR>So I think the key is to be assertive rather than agressive.<BR>Unresolved anger stops us from forgiving as the Bible wants us to. So we need to resolve our feelings. We have to see the good that comes out of anger when it preserves our legitimate needs and convictions. <BR>Self preservation! Not being a doormat.<BR>That is the type of boundaries we must develop?

Yes, I think you said it nicely.<P>Now how can we go about setting up those bounderies and being assertive in a positive progressive way in an marriage with either a clueless partner or an uncooperative partner or a strong willed partner?<P>Is it a "lovebuster" when we assert? Does it matter if the boundry we set is healthy?<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

FHL, are we the same person?<P>Oh, yeah, right...I'm the lapsed Jew. I forgot. [sound of hand slapping forehead.] <P>Yeah, this sounds right on the money...particularly the stuff about disconnecting one's satisfaction from the person's response to you. That's kind of what I have to do. Problem is, being assertive with my H doesn't work, because he responds to conflict with anger and shutdown...and nothing gets accomplished.<P>I gave him that very good letter I wrote last week about what made me uncomfortable about his friendship with OW/"friend" -- and the net result was he got angry with me, said he thought it had all been resolved, refused to acknowledge any role he could play in putting me at ease, then said, "In the interests of domestic harmony, let's just drop it." End of discussion.<P>Makes it hard to improve communication, eh?

FHL, Dazed<BR>A thought between coats again. (Do you think setting up the scaffold for your wife is part of caring for her after surgery?)<BR> That wasn't the thought.<BR>The two of you are natural nice guys. So you enable others to be insensitive and mistreat you because of the lack of boundaries?<BR>I, on the other hand am far too assertive so my main struggle is to tone that down and be a nice guy like the Bible instructs.<BR>By doing this I enable others to mistreat me because I am concentrating too hard on trying to be a nice guy?<P>I think to create the boundaries we must first admit our limits as to how much we can influence others. Then we decide how much we will allow. <BR>We must develop consequences if someone oversteps our boundaries and use assertiveness to stick with the consequences?

WS...I don't believe for a moment you aren't a nice guy. I do think you think your bravada and extreme self sufficiency shields people from knowing the real you.<P>Dazed...yes we have much the same issue. For instance if I had a problem with my mom, I could distance myself as long as I took care of her physical needs and wasn't emotionally abusive. It is not so easy with a spouse you pledged to love and honor, whose life is entwined with your own and who you are supposed to be "as one" with.<P>It is easier to live in joyful service to one another if the other is on the same page. I have mulled this tightrope many times. And just what are the consequences. Emotional abuse and physical abuse is easy...you're out of there. Infidelity...a case by case issue. But what is the consequence for cluelessness or selfishness. My H knows I would do anything to raise my kids in a loving two parent house and he also knows I would never cheat. So where's my stick? I do not see that I have one.<P>Now we are getting along great and he is really trying...and he is responding to changes in me positively by changing himself somewhat. But what if he didn't?<P>This is my uneasiness. Of course you can assert in little ways, I have and have had good results...but major issues? Where's the line and how do you walk it?<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hi FHL!!!!!<P>THIS IS ME!!!!! <P>Boy - do I need this one!!!!!<P>Have to go back and read the rest - just got as far as the symptoms not the cures!!!! You do have cures, right?<P>Just letting you know that I'm going to need a lot of help with this one!!!!!<P>FHL -you made me laugh with the skedaddle reference - that's me to a 'T'!!!!<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba

Sheba...oh no...I thought YOU had the answers...now what are we going to do?<P>Reread carefully, I have lots a questions about this.<P>Good to hear from you...wish I could show you my pictures from vacation!<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Ask Chris how!!!!! He posted his pix!!<P>You have to tell me all about it and I am going to make a thread for us to do just that!!!! <P>I told you that I was a thinker - like you!!! Not the doer of routine chores or the sparring partner to keep a bout going!!!! I like to end arguments with solutions - not just yell and scream - YUCK!!!!<P>We will help each other - don't forget we have WS, CL, SHA and all the others to help us!!!!<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba

Chris undoubtedly has a scanner and/or a digital camera. I am behind in the tech dept.<P>We were the last on block to have microwave, VCR, CD, computer and we still don't have a cell phone.<P>We did have a great time...e-mail me at faithhopelove2@go.com for more details. They are interesting...no not personal or provocative.<P>Scanned what I have missed and didn't see any really new with you? Is there?<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Chris does undoubtedly have a scanner & a digital camera!<P>Glad to hear you had a good vacation FHL.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A> <BR>

Okay<BR>Now I'm serious. Watch closely it doesn't happen often!<P>Boundaries!<BR>We need to create boundaries in order to forgive. If we are doormats we enable others to mistreat us.<BR>So we decide what we are capable of enduring. We stop trying to be the better person just long enough to realize that we are interfering with the act of forgiving by trying too hard to do it.<BR>We start to step up and say what we feel. This keeps the anger healthy instead of bitter.<BR>We have morals. We state them. Whether or not others agree with them is unimportant. What is important is that we know what we believe. And that we stick to it. We cannot make others stick to our values. But by making them known instead of just following them we are taking steps forward.

Hiya WS!!!! How you feeling?<P>Is that the heart of what this means?<P>I can express myself pretty good just not during an "arguement"!! I have to come back and be calm and then say what I need to say. <P>I'm not a doormat in that context - I just have always hated fighting!! I will cry and not say what I want because I am too distraught about the descension. Has nothing to do with not being able to speak up for myself or my beliefs and opinions - it's the tension filled moment itself that I can't handle.<P>What can I do with that? If H would start and arguement and rant and rave I just sit there and let him go off then I would tell H that I would talk to him later when he was "more human" and would walk away without having my say. I would approach the subject later and try to get my view across without the tension.<P>Some things we never argued or fough about. Just made subtle references to and the other didn't want to discuss it in the correct detail.<P>What to do about that - when the other doesn't want to hear it.<P>FHL - I'm making that thread right now and by the way - I LIKE the personal and provacative kind!!!!! LOL!!!!<BR>Gonna EMail you also - but later!!<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba

Off the subject of the thread but...<P>WASSTUBBORN! WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON A LADDER PAINTING?<P>Okay, I've never had THAT surgery done before, but are you really suppose to be painting the trim already?<P>Take care of yourself lady! Or you are going to have to change your name to StillStubborn! LOL. <P>------------------<BR>Shoni<P><BR>

Scaffold Shoni, Scaffold.<BR>I use the ladder to get to the top.<BR>H and I are having loads of fun bantering back and forth.<BR>I'm being careful don't worry.<BR>The post surgery instructions say gradually get back to normal activity. Is this not normal activity for me.<BR>thanks for caring!!!<P>Sheba<BR>It sounds to me like you have the right idea. You discuss the boundaries when calm. not in the middle of the fight.

Hi SHA -<P>I just went back to read the "cures" and then saw your post. Very relevant!!!!<P>I think we have to have to separate sets of boundaries for now.....<P>For life in general - and a temporary set for the temporary situation that we are in now.<P>True - once our spouses start coming out of this "fantasy" or crisis they are having - we should set new boundaries to encompass every aspect of who we want to be and how we want to be.<P>Could be that our boundaries prior to this mess might change significantly as well as the current boundaries issued during the affair and early rebuilding.<BR>As long as the change for the better - it should be a good thing!!! I don't think our boundaries were working very well if we find ourselves in this situation so we need to change some of them or at the very least our way of looking at them.<P>Does that make sense?<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba

Hello All,<BR>I am a bit behind today.....willcatch up tonight at some point. <BR>One of my favorite subjects is boundaries. Seems we all need them, we have them, but we often put them aside for other people. Why? Is it in the name of love? Or ???