<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I have seen it happen that the betrayed spouse finds some else & the betrayer "wakes up." However, most of the time it really throws a monkey wrench in the works for both spouses.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again, being a betrayed spouse, this may seem odd coming from me, but if after the betrayer "wakes up", then that person simply has to deal with the consequences of their own actions. If their spouse is now emotionally involved with someone else because of all of the pain that they knowlingly and consciously inflicted, then it is up to them to "win" back their spouses. If by the time they "wake up", their spouses are no longer interested in making the marriage work and wants a divorce, whether it is because of someone else or not, then they have to again live with the consequences of their decisions. I know that their are many people here that live and die with all that the Harley's teach, but I simply do not believe in laying around being a doormat waiting for a betraying spouse to "wake up." If missy believes that the marriage is dead, a divorce should be the next move, but if she thinks there is still a chance, then I believe that she should wait on filing until she knows for sure its over, but in the meantime, I do not believe that she should be sitting around being deprived emotionally while her spouse is out playing. <P>I don't have a problem with her relationship with this other person influencing her thoughts of whether her marriage is going to work, her husband created this situation. Has anyone ever considered that this friend of hers is actually better for her than her husband is at this time? <P>I do believe in marriage, that's why I am here, it's why I am trying to forgive and move on, but I also believe that maintaining a marriage does not come at any costs. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> God did not put this person in your life---maybe Satan, but not God. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>K, did I read that right? Who are you to interpret God's actions and determine His intentions?<P>Missy, I understand 100% where you're coming from. I haven't known about my husband's extra-marital activities but for two months, and I wouldn't say my husband is being "mean" per se, but I think I may have had enough of him. The only difference is that I'm wondering if maybe the fact that I found someone else to have fun with (just TALK to and ENJOY the CONVERSATION--we haven't done or implied doing ANYTHING else) may be a signal that I should end the marriage such as it is.<P>I think it is quite possible that God DID put this person in your life. But now it is up to you to make the right choices. If you want your husband to come back even a little, stay away from this new guy. If you're thinking the fat lady has sung in your marriage, get the divorce and enjoy your new life!!<P>That's my two cents. --Ripped

I don't post much, but I lurk alot.<P>trying2_4give, FA and Ripped, I agree with all of you guys.<P>K, are you on the Harley's payroll? I may not post much, but I read these threads almost daily, and it seems to me that tend to talk down to people, or as you put it, "coach" them in the Harley principles, if they have a different opinion or don't follow the Harley way of doing things to the very letter. As far as I know the Harley's are human beings just like the rest of us, which means that they too are not perfect, take you for instance, you state that you follow the Harley principles, and from the way that you speak to others, I am assuming that you follow the priniciples to the letter, and yet you continue to be celibate, and have been for 3.5 years........what has gone wrong?<P>missy9 if your support groups helps you, then by all means continue to have them in your life. If your friend can accept the fact that you still love your husband and that you still hold out hope that your marriage can be saved, then I would advise that you continue to see him as a friend as well. The nerve of some people to tell you to continue to suffer and play the "holier than thou", "I know what's best for you" role while, as FA put it, your husband is out playing. If this friend of yours is there for you and helps you, than fine. Your husband is a big boy, he knows what he is doing and he had made his decisions. <P>Life is too short to spend it unhappily. You and only you know if there is a chance for your marriage to survive, if you believe that it is beyond repair, than divorce, if you believe that there is hope, than work towards that, with whomever in your life you choose to help you. Good Luck to you.

Dear misy9, <BR>later I'll hope to elaborate, I read your post yesterday and I'm in disagreement with many who have been against your getting involved with this OM, <P>I felt good for you, because I know the pain of being the spouse who is second after the lover. And I feel good for you that your pain is diminishing. Sadly, that goes hand in hand with diminished feelings for the WS. But it is something I'm experiencing now, though we are in counseling, it is a defense mechanism. Like a shell on a hermit crab. <P>I am not interested in anyone else, but the pain has stopped lately and I don't want to feel "in-love" again because that is where he can hurt me. I have lost trust and confidence.<P>Bright side: you have friends who are decent people and are willing to shun the OW and support you. <P>Will write more later.<P><BR>Later: Okay, I've copied the posts and re-read them. My original impulse was: Do what makes you feel good. You're the innocent party. You haven't left your marriage to roll in the sheets with a creep. Why shouldn't you have a blameless friendship?<P>Then I re-read K's well written principals (SP?) and I wish I could be so brief and to the point. So I'm changing my opinion, though not my feelings. <P>What I read that K posted sounded just like my H's rationalizations as to why he continues contact with his BestFriend on the sly. And why he got to intensely involved (granted, they probably never got into the sack, no way to be sure) on an emotional level while leaving me out in the cold.<P>So much as I believe you are justified in allowing something to develop with this other betrayed spouse, and much as I am cheering for you after what you've been through, that a man finds you attractive and worth his attention, I was wrong.<P>If you are going to do a true Plan B, the purest way is to complete a divorce and then make yourself available to date. No fair, I know. But you are very special. You can continue being special by doing the right thing. And sticking to good principals.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Bellevue (edited July 20, 2000).]

KK:<P>Nope, not on the payroll... I could always use the extra income, however (Steve---you listening??? )<P>I do pretty much "preach" Harley's stuff because it's been demonstrated to be effective, and this is the MarriageBuilder's bulletin boards. When you sign up (and in) to use these, you state that you are familiar with the concepts. So, when I see someone like Missy starting to go against the concepts (remember the title of her post), and make "mistakes" that several others have made---I will step in and try to help.<P>Support means different things to different people. I'm taking time out of my day to "support" missy (and others). But not to give a blanket "it's OK"---but to offer my experiences (and the summary of a lot of other experiences I've seen after 2 years here) to help find the "best path". I don't do this to beat people up, to prove I'm right (I'm always right---that could be a cause of my celibacy tho, so I'm working on being wrong more often... ). It's to help.<P>If missy is (really) ready to divorce her husband---then I'm all for her doing so. But it doesn't appear that she's there yet. And to get involved with someone else because "it feels good" and "life is too short to be unhappy" is a mistake. Those reasons are always used to justify poor (selfish) behavior.<P>Again, if I thought missy's friend was a good thing for her or her marriage---then that'd be great. But I cannot recall one instance on this board in the last two years where this type of situation ended up good. So that's where I'm coming from. <P>You've stated in your profile that you've had three affairs. Did any of them start as friendships where you began to share marital problems??<P>That's the point.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by K:<BR><B>.....this is the MarriageBuilder's bulletin boards. When you sign up (and in) to use these, you state that you are familiar with the concepts.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Familiar with, not blindly following. I, like many other people here, have our own minds and thoughts, while we may agree with most of what is here at this site, that doesn't mean we all can't have our own ideas and tailor these concepts to meet our own unique situations.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>Support means different things to different people. I'm taking time out of my day to "support" missy (and others). But not to give a blanket "it's OK"---but to offer my experiences (and the summary of a lot of other experiences I've seen after 2 years here) to help find the "best path".</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't believe anyone has ever asked for a blanket "it's ok", but I also don't believe that anyone has ever asked to be talked down to and brow beatened about "what's best for them", or to have their "mistakes" corrected by you or to be told constantly to "give Steve Harley a call." I find it to be very arrogant for you to say that you know what's best for someone. And do you summarize only the experiences that support you and your way of thinking? Since I have been on these boards I have seen people succeed when not following the Harley principles to the letter, while I have also seen people who have followed a Plan A, then a Plan B, then go off to divorce court. You follow the principles to a letter, and yet you are celibate, sometimes there are many roads to success, and not all of them are named Harley.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>And to get involved with someone else because "it feels good" and "life is too short to be unhappy" is a mistake. Those reasons are always used to justify poor (selfish) behavior.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Justify poor, selfish behavior? Have you read anything that missy has written? Instead of poor, selfish behavior, how about having basic human needs met? This is not a situation in which she is the betraying spouse looking to justify cheating, this is a situation in which her spouse is openly carrying on an affair and has abandoned her. I don't think there is anything "selfish" about feeling good and having the pain of being betrayed and abandoned relieved. It is so smug, arrogant and selfish to insists to someone that is obviously hurting to sit around and do a "good and proper" Plan B, c'mon, please join the rest of the "real" world.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>You've stated in your profile that you've had three affairs. Did any of them start as friendships where you began to share marital problems??<P>That's the point.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, you want to know how they started, they all started by me telling my husband how I felt and how I thought our problems could be worked out. Want to know what happened next, he told me that I only thought of myself, that I was selfish and that all the problems in our marriage were either in my head or over exaggerated. They started because he told me that no one else wanted me, that no one else would put up with my whining, that I was stupid for feeling the way that I did. They started because he never took anything that was of interest to me seriously, it was all a waste of time. It wasn't until he found out about the last affair that he started listening, that he got rid of that smug, arrogant, know it all attitude that you seem to display. It wasn't until he found out that he started paying attention to what was wrong in our marriage, that he began to show interest in the things that I am interested in.<P>K, let me give YOU a little advice, while most of what the Harley's have to say I actually agree with, but until you get rid of your own little smug attitude, that know it all attitude, that I know everything and I'm here to save you from yourself attitude, you will probably remain celibate for another 3.5 years.<P><BR>[This message has been edited by Koming Klean (edited July 19, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Koming Klean (edited July 19, 2000).]

dddddddddddd<p>[This message has been edited by TMD (edited July 19, 2000).]

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TMD - no justifying my affairs, because there is no justification, just answering a question that was posed to me. <P>Has what I have written hit a nerve perhaps? Did your spouse tell you that they were unhappy and why?, did you ignore them? If you weren't told of their concerns and feelings then I am truly sorry for you, but if you were told and you <B>chose</B> to not only ignore what you were being told, but to continue the behavior, then you are just as much fault as your spouse.<P>Yes I am a the betrayer, but I am also human, I have feelings and needs, just as you do, and while I was wrong for having an affair, my only other options were to continue to live in misery or leave him, because he knew all of my concerns. <P>From the attitude that you just sent my way, what would you have said if I left him? BTW, I didn't leave because, for whatever reason, I still loved my H, still do.

KK:<P>I missed whatever TMD said to you---but you didn't answer my question.<P>Your answer concerned what poor behaviors your husband exhibited prior to having the affair. That's fine, and I'm in agreement that most affairs start in marriages that have deteriorated, due to BOTH partners poor behaviors.<P>But---how did you find yourself in three separate affairs? It's highly unlikely that these men were sailors standing on a corner who you passionately attacked and said "take me" to. They were probably opposite sex friends who met the needs that your husband wasn't meeting, and being a "needy" person, you ended up taking things too far. And specifically---did you discuss your marital problems with these three men? I'm betting that you did---there's great potential for "love bank deposits" when finding a friend who will willingly sympathize with you concerning your horrible spouse.<P>And that's my point. My wife did this with one man (and I'm "guilty" of having several of the poor marital behaviors your husband exhibited). Most affairs here on the MB boards start the same way.<P>Missy is married right now. Not happily married, but married nonetheless. For her to get close to opposite sex friends who she discusses marital problems with has the potential for a big problem---as far as her marriage is concerned. I think everyone here is in agreement that there is the potential for strong (loving) feelings from this relationship. The difference is that "my camp" would say that it's inappropriate---regardless of how your spouse is behaving. And "your camp" says it's OK. I can't presume to exactly know what's best for missy (nor do I pretend to), but I will say that the preponderance of these cases would indicate that she should cut off this friendship until she is divorced and healed---for her sake.

missy, I haven't had the same success (as yet, but I am not divorced yet, either) that K and others have found with the Plan A and Plan B method (could be because I've not yet gone to Plan B).<P>HOWEVER, I DO feel completely qualified to comment on finding a friend of the opposite sex. In March, a male acquaintance of mine started paying me a bit more attention than he had been. It started out as email and IM conversations, a little light flirting, fun stuff. One night, I commented that, as we were only about a mile or so away from each other, it was silly for us to IM when we could be sitting down face to face with one another. He agreed, and I wound up at his place... you might be able to imagine what happened: him - a single young man with a sexual appetite, me - an 18-month separated woman who hasn't had sex in over 3 years ... yup.<P>So ... we attempted to resume our friendship, even though I had developed much deeper feelings than that. I thought I was absolutely done with my husband by then! I didn't need him - someone else was filling my emotional needs. Well, my friend couldn't deal with our relationship the way it was - and we wound up parting our ways with him giving me some very hurtful words - and telling me never to speak to him again.<P>I was pretty devastated. It hurt to be treated that way. And a shocking thing happened. After I got my emotions back under control and dealt with the hurt of my friend "dumping me" because he felt I was "too needy" - surprise of all surprises: I discovered that I still love my husband. And that I still want to be married to him. And I am going to do a little more Plan A'ing and then a TRUE Plan B.<P>So ... what did I learn from my experience? That when you enter into a friendship with a member of the opposite sex, it always has the potential of becoming more. And when you do so while you are needy and vulnerable (and believe me, I do so understand needy and vulnerable), the person most likely to wind up hurt badly by the situation is yourself.<P>I hope that someone else can learn from my experience, too.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I can see clearly now,<BR>the rain is gone ...

As for Lu's point that Guard may have reacted to Lor's involvement with another man, well, that might be true. Another HOWEVER - there is a flip side to that coin, and it is important to remember: Lor is now suffering through her "withdrawal" from her friend, and she almost LOST Guard due to her difficulty withdrawing from his friendship - she even states in this thread how she misses the friendship, and how her counselor has made the very truthful point that she has other, more appropriate people who can meet these needs for her... yet she avoids using them because she does not have the same emotional attachment to them as she has to the friend.<P>We say over and over again as betrayed: "He should have divorced me FIRST if he was so unhappy, and THEN had his relationship." Yet when we are hurting and needy, our same selves can find a way to justify our own friendships with members of the opposite sex - because it makes us feel good ... because we deserve better ...<P>We are all vulnerable. I was the Queen of Plan A: 18 months of it. I knew better. And I did it too. Who got hurt? Not my husband... I got hurt. Set my self-esteem and self-confidence back more than a little bit. Lor, in her situation, she got hurt. And I'll bet her self-esteem and self-confidence has suffered a bit as well.<P>Lor and I are good people. We made unwise choices when we were not capable of making wise choices. We would have both been better off in many ways if we had AVOIDED placing ourselves into situations where we needed to make ANY kind of choices.<P>I still "ache" from the way my friendship ended ... and not every guy is as unstable as my friend apparently was ... but I don't want to see anyone place themselves anywhere near where I was... <P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I can see clearly now,<BR>the rain is gone ...

Missy:<P>Only one question, and answer it with a "Yes" or a "No." No "but" or "technically" allowed.<P>Are you still married?<P>Think about your answer, and then go back and read what Chris, K and terri wrote. Then think some more.<P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die<p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited July 19, 2000).]

missy,<P>I can understand after all you've been through needing some friendship, but at the same time you're vulnerable right now if you truly are hoping and working toward the goal of getting back with your H. <P>I think if you know it's over between you and your h, that you should proceed with a divorce (exhausted all efforts, which it sounds like from what you've said), and then pursue this friendship. From what this guy says, he's not just interested in friendship. If you have TRULY given up on hope with reconciling with your H, the decision shouldn't be hard.<P>Good luck to you in whatever you decide. <P>

Finally got the chance to sign back on tonight. Thanks for all your responses. They all make great sense. <P>Quickly, I have spent the last 7 months doing my best to Plan A, Plan b, Counsel with Steve Harley, going to my own counselor, etc... I have sought out so much support and help. My one regret about thinking about giving up on my marriage is the annoying fact that I still to this day have no idea why this affair occured. <P>My h can only tell me that he was very happy with me and he wasn't looking for someone else but it just happened. He just fell in love with someone else. I can honestly believe that he did not go looking to get involved. This OW just happened to be placed in his classroom for the year and she herself was involved in a bad marriage and leaned on my h for support. One thing led to another and she is an expert at flaunting her stuff if you know what I mean. She is extremely sexual and My h just fell for it. I think it developed into something very exciting for him and the type of sex they got involved in really changed him. He is no longer the same person. He is not capable of seeing who he has become. I don;t think he wants to. He is so selfish right now. He had alienated everyone. He has no close friends anymore. All of this and he goes out of his way now to do everything he can to convince himself that I am this mean person to help him justify why he did this. All of this after 19 years together. 17 of which were wonderful before he met OW. <P>Again I am not just saying this and its not just my opinion. Everyone says you guys ahd what we all want. A great marriage. My h himself has spoken to a priest, our counselor and his attorney and has told all three of them that he loves me and he was happy in his marriage but when it comes to this OW he just can't help himself.<P>When I heat things like that and I think about it, it just screams ADDICTION to me. But, and the biggest BUT to me is that it is very possible given the way my h currently behaves, that this addiction is so powerful that I feel in his case there is no turning back. <P>I am disgusted at how I have been treated by him. Finally, someone comes along,who has been there before in the same situation and I finally for the first time in 2 years feel a little bit of happiness and excitiment.<P>I am just not sure where any of this will lead. I feel like I have fought for my h enough. He just does not me or the kids or hte wonderful life that we had.<P>Even if he did wake up one day, I am not sure I will be able to reconnect with him. <P>You all make great arguments why not to get involved at this time and I will take your advise. I will try to keep things on the lighter side and just see what happens. Besides nothing has happened at all so far. <P>However, I am done fighting for a man that wants no part of me. I do much better when I do not think about or see him. <P>DO any of you see any reason why I should continue to fight for this man, even when I am not speaking with him? IF you were all treated this way, why would you fight? Again, perhaps my love for him is clouded at this time but I just don't feel for him at this time as well. I have has it.....

The "Plan B" time is supposed to do a couple things---insulate you (and your love for your spouse) from the daily "bad habits" of the affair, and provide the wayward spouse a dose of reality concerning the choices.<P>The problem is that if the "addiction" is strong, the reality may take months to set in. Up to two years. If you've been fighting this for 7 months, then I'd urge you to stick to the "plan B" mode for another 4-5 months. Give it at least a year for your husband to come back to reality---for the affair to crumble (and it's likely that it will).<P>Heck---I was only in Plan B for a couple months, and I was having all the feelings that you were. I was dying for some companionship, some attention, some sex. In that state, it's very easy to latch on to someone who's willing to provide it. It's also easy to completely lose hope that your marriage can ever be restored. But the statistics are on your side that your husband's affair will fail him. And the fact that he seemingly has such good feelings about the marriage prior to the affair would indicate that it's very likely that he would reconcile with you. And that you'd have a good chance of making it (especially after we get done with a little "elective" brain surgery on him... ).<P>But while you're trying to stay in Plan B mode to save your marriage, contact with opposite sex friends is really dangerous. Because you WILL compare these people to your husband, and as I mentioned before---Attila the Hun would look pretty good in comparison right now. I'd really suggest that you not have these contacts---I think it's going to be harder on you, in the long run.<P>If you're truly to the point where you have NO LOVE for your husband---then you're right: one of the "successful" outcomes of Plan B is a clear-conscience divorce in which you know that you did everything you could to fight for your marriage, and there's just no fight left. I'd suggest that you have another session with Steve: he'll help you assess whether you're at that point. My guess is that you've hit a frustration-peak, and one of the ways to deal with that frustration is to find someone who treats you like you deserve to be treated. That's perfectly natural---but it's not going to help your fight for your marriage.

Hi there,<P> Thought and thought about all of this (I think I need to get a life!) and I have to say I really do feel deep down as K and the others do that advise you to not become involved with this "friendship". Even though it does seem like Lor's H finally came around after her friendship with another man now she must deal with the complications.<P> Missy, the way you talk about your H leads me to believe that if he would be the H he used to be you would want him back. HAVE FAITH.....he is addicted and the fact that he can find nothing wrong with you makes me feel that if you wait it out he will come back.<P> In my situation, my H had a 2yr. affair , we had had a good marriage and he turned into some mean nasty person that I have never seen. NOW, 1yr. after we have been in recovery it is unbelievable, the old H (the kind, thoughtful one) is back....if you would've told me -that he would change back after the way he treated me, I wouldn't have believed it ( was hoping though but losing faith ).<P>Think carefully about your goals....if you want to restore your marriage and (trust me it can be good again)......keep your eye on the cheese. In my opinion you have a very good chance of this affair crashing and burning........LU

Gee, i feel like this is a programming for a cult! Someone said "why is it okay for you to date while married but not for husband? WHAT! Let's look at the 2 VERY DIFFERENT situations. Missy's husband was deceitful, lying and sleeping with OW without his wife's knowledge, that has ALL changed now. He is openly with his OW now HIS CHOICE, he is dating while still married! Missy has had nothing to hide, has not lied been deceitful, but has a friend of the opposite sex. I have always and will always have male bestfriends, and you no what, they are just that FRIENDS. Who wrote this rule book on this board that EVERY opposite sex friend is going to end up with sex. THAT IS LUNACY and FICTION! Not EVERY opposite sex friend ends up in a danger zone for sex or relationship. How about they have similar interest. I for one get along better with males than females, woman talk too much, gossip, not enough action or daring enough for me, maybe i was a man in another life but goodness gracious. You gals/guys have written this whole womans future already and have already condemned her for her marriage not working because you are 100% sure that husband will ONE DAY COME BACK TO HER! You all have let her know that you know of not one relationship that ended up good when started during seperation. Some of you don't get out much! Either that or you don't WANT to see it because your whole life is consumed by following the Harley's principles to your last dying breath. So with her precious life and time she is to continue to be emotionally abused, self-esteem shot down, self-love gone because she didn't stick by her abusive man. A bit unrealistic to me. As I said before, I do believe in the Plan A and Plan B methods but you know just because it worked for Lori after 2 years, why would you believe that it will work on EVERYONE else here. Maybe it is what you need to believe to get you through your day and that is fine FOR YOU. But please stop beating up on this poor woman and that is exactly what you are doing with your words of..."I too made the same MISTAKES that Missy is making" WHAT!! I didn't know nostradamus (sp?) was here on this board to predict the future! I respect a lot of the people here on this board and understand that everyone has their own opinion and SHOULD express it, but now some have taken to a form where I am made to feel that some believe that "no one should come to this board if you don't do, act, live the way we/Harly say you should". As I said before, this is starting to feel like a programming! <p>[This message has been edited by trying2_4give (edited July 20, 2000).]

trying2_forgive:<P><BR>No one ever said that EVERY OPPOSITE SEX FRIENDSHIP LEADS TO AN AFFAIR. But---a high percentage of affairs start off as OPPOSITE SEX FRIENSHIPS in which "precautions" aren't met. One of those precautions is to never discuss marital problems with one of these friends.<P>It's funny to compare this to Nosterdamus. Here's a thought excercise for you: not everyone who has gone over Niagra Falls in a barrel has died. Not everyone who has been in a plane crash has died. Would you knowingly put yourself in either of those positions? Probably not.<P>The situation that missy is approaching is putting her marriage in harms way. And it's also highly unlikely that any good (a long term relationship, or even a short term relationship with no hurt feelings) will come of it. This isn't necessary "Harley-isms" here: Pittman, Weiner-Davis, Vaughn, etc would all agree. Most counselors who deal with divorced people reentering the dating pool advise against "rebound" relationship. There's an overwhelming bunch of evidence that would indicate this isn't a very good idea.<P>It's called "the cult of common sense".