There have been a few threads here about wanting an apology from the WS. It got me thinking. (This can be dangerous).<P>I feel sorry for the pain my husband feels but I don't feel that I can ask for forgiveness. It would never occur to me to approach him and say "I'm sorry. Do you forgive me?".<P>There are several reasons for this. <P>1) On some level the EA doesn't seem like it was something I did, but something that happened to me. I fell in love with another man. I didn't go out looking for it. But by the time I realized what was going on with me it was too late. I was hooked. I feel like I'm just as much a victim of this as my H was. It hurt me, too.<P>2) I don't feel like I deserve to be forgiven. If he wishes to grant me his forgiveness, it will be because he has truly forgiven, not because I asked him to. I feel like I don't have the right to ask him for that.<P>3) I'm still not sure where my heart is right now. I don't want to ask for forgiveness unless I'm 100% ready to re-commit to my marriage. I'm not there right now and I'm not sure I ever will be. I guess that's why I don't feel that I deserve it.<P>I do regret that this happened and that so much pain has resulted from it. But I don't think I'll be issuing an apology or asking forgiveness. At least not anytime soon.<P>There are other betrayers here who are much further along in recovery than I am that feel differently, I'm sure. But this is how I feel right now, this minute.

Hi TS:<P>I'm here to dog you about your "backwards thinking" , but first...<P>I tend to agree with you on "asking for forgiveness". I think that forgiveness is a process that the injured party must go through, and being "asked" to forgive isn't going to help in most cases.<P>On the other hand, apologizing for doing wrong and hurting someone is completely appropriate. It often won't happen immediately after an affair is discovered (because the wayward spouse is more upset about having been discovered), but it happens during the reconnection process of recovery. <P>In fact---one of the issues I have with your third statement is that you're doing that "backwards" thing that you do. You're not sure where your heart is at, so you'll refrain from acting in a positive fashion until you're "100%" certain. <P>Let me give you a hypothetical situation---have you thought that perhaps by "going through the motions" of apologizing, asking forgiveness, recommitting to the marriage, and investing yourself in your relationship with your husband, that you might not ACTUALLY HASTEN THE PROCESS? Perhaps by thinking (and doing) with your head---instead of wringing your hands about the condition of your heart---you'd be much further along in recovery, and enjoying your marriage.<P>Your "on-line" personna reminds me very much of my wife. From my vantage as "armchair internet psychologist", I'd diagnose you both as mildly OCD and depressed---it's not incapacitating your ability to function in this world, but it's certainly playing a large role in your inability to solve your "functional" problems and become a happier, more satisfied person. You both tend to compartmentalize things (see item 1---you as a "victim"), and you have self-esteem issues (item 2, don't deserve to be forgiven).<P>In spite of all these issues---I will let you know that you can become happy in your marriage. My wife is being successful at that (I help sometimes, too... ) But let me give you the "disrespectful judgement" advice that I can't give her---get yourself into your doctor to be checked for OCD and depression, get on meds (if necessary), and start working with a counselor where you actually will "do" stuff that you might not believe in (100%) for the benefit of the marriage---and stick with it, for at least 6-12 months.<P>You'll end up much happier in the end (or double your money back). And trust me on this one---it'll be a heck of a lot easier on your husband.

Hi K!<P>I appreciate your thoughts. You may be right with your diagnosis. I'll find out next Thursday. I finally got an appointment.<P>However, I still disagree with you about my thinking backwards (you didn't really expect anything different did you? ).<P>It just isn't in me to consciously do anything I don't believe in. Not for the good of my marriage, my H, or my happiness. Not for anything. I have to believe it first or I will feel like a fraud doing it. And I don't think feeling like a fraud will make me feel any better about myself.

Truthseeker:<P>From childhood we are taught that when we hurt someone that the thing to do is to apologize for the hurt we caused. That is what is expected.<P>To inflict the utmost hurt on the one you are suppose to love most in all the world and then never ask to be forgiven is to say that this hurt was not important. <P>Perhaps it was excusable or unintentional but it still hurts just the same. By asking to be forgiven we acknowledge and validate that pain so that the other person can let it go.<P>It's not for you...it's for him.<P>As for your 3rd reason, the pain you caused was not conditional...it didn't depend upon whether you stayed with OM or not...it was real in the minute and hours that you caused it and is not dependant upon your deciding whether you want your marriage or not. It is and was real and does not go away merely because you now feel your marriage is not worth it. <P>The apology is not for having the affair, it's for betraying his trust and no matter how you stand now in the marriage you did break that trust and he needs for you to acknowlege that.<P>Buffy <P><BR> <P> <p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited August 02, 2000).]

I know that you can't agree with me---that's another reason you remind me of my wife... <P>I understand your "unwillingness to consciously do anything I don't believe in." And that attitude, in healthy doses, is what keeps you a (moral, caring, compassionate) individual. The key is 'healthy doses'---and I think what you're suffering from is common for OCDer's, and that's an inability to do anything unless it's a black/white decision. And even when it's black/white---OCDer's are experts at manufacturing some gray so they don't have to act.<P>For example, look at your post. You say:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I do regret that this happened and that so much pain has resulted from it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm assuming that some component of your regret for the pain is directed in your husband's direction (although OCDer's can be notoriously selfish as well---because they can't HELP but focus on themselves). If that's the case, why can't you offer an apology to your husband?<P>If you knocked a kid off his bike by accident, would you apologize?<P>If you grabbed a second doughnut and your office mate hadn't had one yet (unbeknownst to you), would you apologize?<P>If you were involved in a car accident and killed the children riding in the minivan you hit, would you apologize?<P>I'm guessing that the answer to these would be "yes".<P>So why can't you apologize to your husband---the one person on the planet you promised to be true to? You did a grave wrong to him---regardless of whether you see yourself as a victim of circumstances; regardless of his contributions to the demise of your marriage; regardless of any external circumstances.<P>It's your "reasoning" process that's currently "flawed" (for lack of a better word). You injured someone, but you won't ask forgiveness. That's not your general outlook on life---it's just for this circumstance. I think it's your "state of mind" that's imparing you from working through this and getting better. I'm guessing that you're dealing with depression/OCD and that it's not allowing you to process these events logically and productively. I certainly hope that your doctor can help you over this hump.<P>Francis had posted quite a bit on cognative behavioral psychology books---have you ever worked with these texts, in conjunction with your therapist? Although you might feel "fradulent" in doing the exercises, I believe it might be helpful for you to work through these---you might get to the point where you can forgive yourself, forgive your husband, forgive the OM, and start working on your marriage.

TS,<BR>First of all, know I have been both a WS & BS--and neither are good places to be, certainly in my case, BS was far worse for me. As a WS you at least get some decisions to make...as a BS 2 other people hold all the cards--and one of them, the OP, does not care ANYTHING about the BS.<P>I find a bit of a contradiction between your #1 you are a victim & #2 you don't deserve forgiveness. Victims do not create their situations in any way, thus they are not in need of forgiveness. If you don't deserve forgiveness, then you must feel you had input--and that would lessen your victimhood.<P>Then #3, being unsure...my H stayed on the fence wanting both his marriage and a single life that included the OW for 18 months. You don't want to live that way. In your personal life, how do you go about setting a goal or believing in something? I bet it doesn't just happen, goals and beliefs are almost always achieved step by step. You choose. If you don't take the first step, whatever that may be for you, you don't go anywhere, you don't believe in anything. <P>I probably sound harsh. But I've had a heartwrenching time these past 4 months giving up my EA and coming back to my marriage--now that my H came off his fence and landed on the marriage side. I also did not go looking for someone, in fact I was so Plan A it took over a month before I realized that even if I wasn't hooked, the OM was. I don't actually regret the EA--afterall my H had left me (these emotions are still in the process of sorting out and could change), but I have told my H I am sorry that my actions & words hurt him, which I truly am sorry for. He in turn tells me the same thing and we both forgive, but you are right in not forcing your H to say he forgives you, however it is important for him that he works out his emotions. You say you do regret this happened, you could say just that.<P>And, I guess one thing that my H & I realized, neither he nor I wanted to lose the other to an OP. Your H will never be so vulnerable to an affair as he is right now. That's in SAA as well, I'm not just using my own miserable life as an example ( my life is getting better all the time, read my "back from Mexico" post.)<BR><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

Hi TS!<P>I'll add my 2 cents...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> On some level the EA doesn't seem like it was something I did, but something that happened to me. I fell in love<BR>with another man. I didn't go out looking for it. But by the time I realized what was going on with me it was too late. I was hooked. I feel like I'm just as much a victim of this as my H was. It hurt me, too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, this is the way I feel about my H's EA...it was never intentional to feel that way, and it caused him immense hurt also.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I don't feel like I deserve to be forgiven. If he wishes to grant me his forgiveness, it will be because he has truly<BR>forgiven, not because I asked him to. I feel like I don't have the right to ask him for that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't know how he feels about this right now...I do know in the past he's told me that he hopes I can forgive him for hurting me, and that he did not feel he deserved me being so understanding. He never asked me to forgive him, which would have made me feel "on the spot." I do know that his recognition that he had hurt me was important for me to hear.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I'm still not sure where my heart is right now. I don't want to ask for forgiveness unless I'm 100% ready to re-commit to my marriage. I'm not there right now and I'm not sure I ever will be. I guess that's why I don't feel that I deserve it.<P>I do regret that this happened and that so much pain has resulted from it. But I don't think I'll be issuing an apology or asking forgiveness. At least not anytime soon.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You don't have to be 100% committed to tell someone you are sorry you have hurt them. It's simply part of being open about how you feel (assuming that s how you feel, of course). And, it doesn't carry a promise unless you add one to it...<P>I've been thinking a lot about you today...hope things go well on your upcoming appt. <P>Big hugs--<P>Kathi<BR>

Riding the fence:<P>After my husband had made a commitment to me to stay married and work things out for the furture, it required me to get out of the army--to leave my re-enlistement commitment unfufilled--and go with him. There was no doubt in my mind what I would do. My command and the chaplain signed the paperwork, and I hung the uniform up and took off the boots with no regrets. I loved my husband so much, it was not a sacrifice to give up my career that I loved so much.<P>I found out much later that he continued the relationship with OW long after via chat and e-mail, bemoaning the fact that he was now "trapped," with regards to the price that I paid to be with him. <P>I asked him "Why didn't you just say goodbye and let her go after you made your promise to me and I made my promise to you? My promise went with proof of my commitment!"<P>And he said: "Cause I didn't know it things would work out between you and me."<P>Not work out? Sorry. This is a cop-out. Sometimes, you gotta MAKE things work out. Sometimes you have to CHOOSE correctly and let your good consequences follow, no matter how you feel at the time (This is what Dr Phil McGraw sez.)<P>And, I am sorry. Things don't "happen." You let them happen. You make them happen. I have lived a sorrowful life at times and have done some raunchy things. Looking back, in every instance, I am accountable for all the sh***y things that have "happened" to me. Like it or not, I am not a victim of anything but my own lack of wisdom and poor decision making at that point of life.

<B>buffy</B>,<P>I think the key phrase in what you said is this:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>To inflict the utmost hurt on the one you are suppose to love most in all the world and then never ask to be forgiven is to say that this hurt was not important. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Especially 'supposed to love'. The thing is ... I don't feel that for him. I'm supposed to but I don't. I think at some level I don't want to be forgiven. <P><B>K</B>,<P>I do tend to think 'digitally'. One of the reasons I do well with computers. Lots of 1's and 0's. Funny thing is, I have difficulty answering yes/no questions sometimes. The answer could vary depending on the circumstances and I always wish I had another option. (like 'sometimes' or 'maybe' or my personal favorite - 'undecided')<P>As far as the texts that Francis posted about, I looked through some of the information but I haven't done any real work with it. I will mention it at my next appointment. Thanks for reminding me.<P><B>Lor</B><P>The contradiciton between #1 and #2 isn't as great as it appears. At some level I feel that I was a victim. I can not control my feelings. I fell in love with another man. I had no control over those feelings. However I didn't stop spending time with him once I realized how I felt. This is what I should have done, but by then I was hooked. I didn't feel as though I was in control of the situation, thus felt like a victim. But I could have stopped it once I knew what was happening. And I didn't. I didn't have the strength. Fortunately, I was able to keep it from progressing any further than an EA (I came close to kissing him once, but didn't do it)<P>As for #3, you said,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I bet it doesn't just happen, goals and beliefs are almost always achieved step by step. You choose. If you don't take the first step, whatever that may be for you, you don't go anywhere, you don't believe in anything. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Huh? I don't decide to believe something. Either something makes sense to me and I believe it or not. I don't work towards believing things. I work towards understanding them. I process information to see if I believe. I can set goals based on my beliefs, but believing isn't a choice. <P>BTW, I like the verse quoted in your signature. "Let love be genuine". That is what I want. For love to be genuine.<P><BR><B>Kathi</B>,<P>You always come across so warm and compassionate. When I grow up I want to be like you. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>You don't have to be 100% committed to tell someone you are sorry you have hurt them. It's simply part of being open about how you feel (assuming that s how you feel, of course). And, it doesn't carry a promise unless you add one to it...<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I guess it seems like asking for forgiveness implies a promise. It's like a repenting - "I'm sorry and I'll never do it again". The thing is, I don't trust myself to never do it again. I have no intention of doing it again. But I had no intention of doing it the first time either. <P><B>Sweetpea</B><P>You never know, he may one day express his regrets to you. Some people feel it but have a hard time expressing it. It's like saying the words will make them feel it more intensely. And if he doesn't say the words, he may express it more by his behavior. I hope it works out for you.<P><B>Bernzini</B><BR>It was a pretty sh***y thing your H did to let you think he was committed when he wasn't. That was fraudulent. That's the type of thing I want to avoid. I don't want to go through the motions. I want it to be genuine and that's why I hold back. I don't want my H to think things are better than they are. It would be very unfair to him. I want to choose correctly. I need to find out what 'correctly' translates to for me. I know I won't end up with the OM, but I'm not convinced that I want to stay married either. I feel very disillusioned about the whole concept of love and marriage and my ability to keep a lifelong promise. I don't want to make a promise that I won't be able to keep. I've already broken it once.<P><B>all</B><BR>Point taken about the saying you're sorry part. But would that make it hurt any less if I didn't follow it up with wanting to make things 'right', by wanting to work on the marriage? The OM said he was sorry that he hurt me. But it didn't matter how sorry he was, I was still hurt. <P><BR>

Hi everyone,<P>Just my thoughts about apologies, regret, and feeling sorry.<P>My husband has apologized hundreds of times to me in the past year for betraying me, hurting me, damaging our marriage, etc. There has never been one time when I didn't believe he was sincere and regretted what had happened. I absolutely know that he is sorry and wishes the affair had never occurred. He still apologizes to me often.<P>Apologies aren't miracles and they don't make everything better or change anything that happened. An apology doesn't take away the pain, and neither does forgiveness.<P>I often read posts from hurt spouses who believe if their partner would just apologize to them things would get better, or from cheating spouses who think that if their partner would forgive them their marriage would be healed. That is NOT the way it works.<P>Apologies and forgiveness are like small pieces of the jigsaw puzzle. There is a lot more to it, but the picture isn't complete without it.<P>I believe the real problem is that people WITHHOLD apologies and/or forgiveness as a way of punishing their partner. That itself is a big problem.<P>My husband apologized many, many times before I was ready to accept his apology and move forward. But every single one of his apologies helped our relationship, as did my decision to forgive him. All these things are pieces of the puzzle that we are putting back together.<P>As I look back over our life together, I can remember many times when my husband apologized to me when he didn't even know what was wrong or it wasn't even his fault. He apologized because he was sorry I was upset or unhappy about something and wanted me to feel better. Sometimes he simply said "I am sorry you were treated unfairly." And it always helped me to feel better. I have done the same to him, but not as often as he has for me.<P>It seems that some people have the attitude that they are not going to apologize for one thing because something else isn't the way they want it to be. For example, a betrayer refuses to apologize for an affair because their marital sex life wasn't satifying to them. Those are two related issues that need to be addressed separately.<P>Everyone knows that it is wrong to have an affair, no matter what the condition of your marriage is. When you have done something wrong, you need to apologize for it and try your best to make it right. I think in every relationship there are many things that both partners need to atone for. What does withholding apologies and/or forgiveness accomplish? Nothing good that I can see.<P>Peppermint<BR>

I hear you peppermint. What you say makes sense.<P>My problem is that my spouse says what he did was wrong, that it hurt a lot of people, that he would get into trouble at work and he knew this, he betrayed me, he used the OW, ect, ect. He says that he feels extremely guilty and ashamed of himself. He says that he acknowledges all these things--but still, it is "not my business" what he did. That's what he says.<P>He is doing a complete 180 from apologizing. He is like a cat in the flowerbed--trying to dig a hole and cover up the doo-doo and then pretending it never happened in there. That is bad. #1--it's going to eat him up inside, and #2--I will never be able to believe anything that he ever tells me again.<P>I am not trying to grind the poor guy under my heel. You know, the interrogater who shines the bright light in the eyes. I am not the priest in the confession booth who needs to hear all the dirt. I just want honesty in my marriage, and I want to know that the guy really loves me enough to change his ways. I don't think that's too much to ask. And if he really doesn't love me, then I guess I got my answer, there, too. I just need the answer.<P>Apology, answer, sme diff.

Hey TS, just a quick thought:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Point taken about the saying you're sorry part. But would that make it hurt any less if I didn't follow it up with wanting to make things 'right', by wanting to work on the marriage? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You agree that saying you're sorry is appropriate. Right? Just because it might not make your husband hurt less doesn't give you the "permission" not to do it---in Harley-speak, you're making a disrespectful judgement on how your husband feels.<P>And this comes to your "wanting" to work on the marriage. When you got married, that was it. You made a promise. And you're continually "breaking" this promise. Divorce is not an option for you. You'll be incinerated in hell if you divorce (or stuck dancing with a 500 lb guy with three left feet).<P>Your issue (digitally speaking) is that you consider "divorce" an option. It's not. It's no more a good option that was the OM. If you take divorce off your option list, that leaves you with one option. Marriage. Now---given the fact that you WILL be married to your husband for the rest of your lives, what kind of marriage do you want? <P>You're going to have to work for it. And some times, you're not going to "feel" like it. Welcome to life. I'm sure that your job didn't always come "naturally" to you. I'm sure that school wasn't always "easy" for you. I'm completely sure that raising a son to age 18 wasn't always what you "wanted". And I bet that you haven't always been a "natural" on the dance floor either. Why on earth would you think that a marriage was something different?<P>You invested time and effort in your dance, in your child, in your education and job. I'm sure that you've been frustrated in all these endeavors, but you perservered and they've all brought you joy as well. Nobody has guaranteed that you will be Mimi Rogers (?), or the CEO of your company, or that your son will get a Nobel prize---why do you need a "guarantee" on your marriage?<P>I'd encourage you to work just as hard on your marriage. You haven't quit work, you didn't put your son up for adoption when things got tough, you haven't quit dance just because a step was hard---why don't you commit to your husband and find a coach that will help you get the marriage you want? (You know who I have in mind...).<P>You can do it, even if you don't WANT to. You just need to spend the effort.<P>I'm

TS,emotions can be controlled to some extent, and they can certainly be modified. "As a man thinketh, so shall he be". My counselor works with me on my thought life because what I am thinking about affects how I feel. If I think about the OM, or, worse, if I think about my H's OW (nearly always murderous thoughts) I'm angry or upset, longing for my life to be different. And he hasn't been with her for many months.<P>If I think about my H and the changes he is making in his life--he's not the bad brain guy he's been the past 2 years--and I think about the good life we had together, the peace we have established between us now and the plans we are making for our future together, my love for my H flows. Christians call it taking every thought captive to Christ's will, others call it "focus", "direction" or "centering".<P>I personally believe that both belief and faith are choices and I think you and I are talking about the same thing "You believe it or you don't" but I attempted to jump ahead to what you do with that belief--build on it or discover it is in error. I also believe true love is a choice because the chemical/lightning strike "falling in love" rarely lasts a lifetime. It is commitment, honor, respect, cherishing, and fidelity that comprise lasting love. Those are all actions or active choices that lead to emotion.<P>I'd rather believe (there's that word again ) that the mistakes, or even wrong paths, I've made are because I chose to do so rather than I was "swept away". I think perhaps you are equally decisive or else your EA would have progressed. <P>An apology to your H doesn't mean you have to stay with him. It can be simply an acknowledgement that you didn't mean to hurt him. The apology does not become null if the marriage does not work out. My H's apologies mean a lot to me...and he still went back to her...and apologized again...and they were still important to me.

Dear Truthseeker:<P>I don't understand you. I won't pretend too. I try to find the GOOD in almost every situation...To me, you seem to search for the WRONG in everything. I tend to see the glass as half full....never half empty. I tend to believe that if you have half a glass of water, than surely the sink must be just around the corner! I believe that we all have choices. I believe that it is up to US to make ourselves happy. I believe everyone has the power to ENJOY LIFE IF THEY OPEN THEMSELVES UP TO THE POSSIBILITY. <P>You keep saying that you have to be *true* to yourself. That you would NEVER do anything that goes against what you believe to be right. And, that is an admirable quality, up to a point. When it begins to make you "hard-headed/rigid/unwilling to bend" it becomes an ugly trait. It begins to look like self-love only...as if you could never bring yourself to do something for another just because it would bring THEM happiness/peace of mind--without the added bonus of *benefiting* you in some way.<P>Is it OK to to deny your H an apology because you've rationalized that it's not *necessary*? After all, your H will still be hurting even if you did apologize, right? And is he not worthy of an apology simply because you no longer feel love for him? Do you only apologize when it benefits you? Do you only apologize to those you love? An apology doesn't *promise* to remove pain, it doesn't *promise* that things will work out, it doesn't *promise* that a situation won't repeat itself, it doesn't even *promise* that you will receive forgiveness. It simply says, "I regret what I've done to you." PERIOD. Did you purposely hurt him? Did you want to hurt him? Did you enjoy hurting him? If your answer is "NO", than an apology would be appropriate. In fact, if you can't do it for you, it would be a very selfless act if you could do it simply to benefit H. <P>Haven't you ever done something, not because it benefits you, but because it benefits another human being? Just because you refuse to benefit from an apology (OM's apology to you), doesn't mean others don't need/want/desire/deserve an apology...it doesn't mean that they won't be able to benefit from it. <P>Quit making excuses for yourself (ie: playing victim). Take responsibility for your actions. You are a grown woman that CHOSE to become involved in an EA. You had the power to walk away, yet you chose NOT TO. No one twisted your arm. No one forced you. YOU CHOSE. YOU MADE THE DECISION.<P>You can MAKE THE DECISION to move forward. You can make the decision to apologize. I'm not saying you have to apologize for falling in love, for being what you say is *true* to yourself....apologize for the hurt you've caused another human being. Love doesn't have to be part of the equation.<P>In fact, I believe it's possible to hate another and still be able to offer up an apology. I believe it's also possible to forgive someone that you feel hate towards. You must open yourself up to the possibility...<P>There is more than one way to view life...there are many shades of blue, green, red, yellow, orange, and purple. Take your blinders off...open yourself up and see the world. <P>Peace, ~Marie<P>

I answered someone in the Recovery section about wanting an appology and I will give my two cents worth here.<P>If you have a WS that asks for forgiveness you are truely lucky and have someone that is very special. However, as in the case of TS's comments I believe that the WS is typically not the type of person to want to appologize. If they would not be trying to justify the A in their head they would not have had it in the first place.<P>I am the BS and I feel that we will most likely have to take the responsibility of forgiving without having our S ask for it. <P>Just as is the case with plan A'ing and being patient and understanding throughout the process of the A, acknowledgement, withdrawal, and recovery, we also should accept that we may have to go without being asked for forgiveness.<P>I can't understand the logic behind having an affair. Don't get me wrong, I do accept respsonsibility for putting my W in the situation were she could choose this. But to do this to someone you love without choosing one of many other options is just unexplainable. The logic of a WS is not rational and they are not thinking clearly which is why Dr. Harley prescribes solutions that revolve around the BS bearing the responsibility of being understanding and letting time, love and understanding be the method by which the couple gets through this difficult period. The WS is incapable of it at this time, just like I feel that they are typically incapable of appologizing. By having an A they show that they can justify most anything.<P>As the BS I went through an affair 10 years ago. My S never asked for forgiveness and I told her many times that things would be much better if she would just ask for it - that I needed it. She never did and a resentment built up in me. A resentment that grew into a bitterness and coldness that I took out on her in verbal and emotional ways. <P>By the time I realized that this happened I thought I had died inside. I went through a very painful process of introspective thinking, self analysis, understanding my responsibility for the affair, and changes that I needed to make to have a good marriage, and to forgive. The result was a feeling of being 'reborn'. I felt like a new person that was experiencing life for the first time. I had forgiven without her asking it of me and it felt good. I finally was able to let go of the pain.<P>More pain... <P>All this took so much out of me that there was nothing left for my W. All this on top of years of already showing my bitterness. The result was that we are now in recovery from a second affair that she has had. Again, driven to this because of me. I can't take responsibility for her actions, but I can for what lead up to it. All this because I was too selfish to forgive and I took it out on her. Now I go through the pain all over again.<P>This time I have a different outlook. If it were not for my changes and plan A'ing I would not be married because she would have left. She now sees the person she has always been looking for in our marriage. This time I forgive and look ahead and learn what I need to to have a healthy marriage and fullfill my W EN's. I will forgive even though she hasn't asked, because this is what God wants of us. To forgive and provide unconditional love.<P>I have learned that forgiveness is very fullfilling. It is extremely hard, especially given these circumstances, but the results are a feeling of fullfillment you don't find many places.<P>Sorry for the dissertation and self therapy. My point is that forgiveness is not something that should be discussed in terms of whether it is asked for or not. It is a gift that we should want to give to others and to ourselves. As Jesus hung on the cross he forgave even onto death.<P>Going through the pain just like the rest of you. May God be with you all, both WS and BS and may he show you the way to compassion.<P><BR>Reborn<BR>

K,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>You'll be incinerated in hell if you divorce (or stuck dancing with a 500 lb guy with three left feet).<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If I follow that line of thought, I'm already doomed to Hell because I've already divorced once. And the fat guy with 3 left feet is what I get if I stay married. Or is that my 'punishment' for divorcing the first guy?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>You're going to have to work for it. And some times, you're not going to "feel" like it. Welcome to life. I'm sure that your job didn't always come "naturally" to you. I'm sure that school wasn't always "easy" for you. I'm completely sure that raising a son to age 18 wasn't always what you "wanted". And I bet that you haven't always been a "natural" on the dance floor either. Why on earth would you think that a marriage was something different?<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My job DOES come naturally to me (when I'm not depressed and I'm apable of thinking - also I need it to survive - can't buy food without it), school WAS easy, dance is VERY nary to me (and practiciing is fun, not work). Raising my son was (and still is) difficult. But that is not a forever thing. Yes, he will always be my son, but I am not forever responsible for him. He WILL be going out on his own one day. The problem I have with marriage is the 'forever' thing. I just don't think I have it in me to do 'forever'. If I had known 9 years ago that I would feel this way today, I wouldn't have married. I was short-sighted. I couldn't see beyond my son growing up. I couldn't imagine life with him all grown up and on his own. Now it's happening, my life is changing, I'm changing. <P>And my H isn't going to hold me to the promise for the sake of the promise. He has told me that. He doesn't want me to stay unless it's what I really want. What does the Bible say about a couple mutually deciding to end it?

K & FA & others covered the Bible verses pretty thoroughly in this thread:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/004131.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/004131.html</A>

TS...<P>You know, you don't have to settle "forever" today, or even tomorrow. You can take a little time, get on the anti-dep and give the counseling a little time first. I know you know that and have decided to give yourself a year...<P>But, you are still trying to decide forever right now. Just spend a little time "swimming" and "floating" first, OK?<P>Kathi<P>Hey, thanks for saying that about me being warm and compassionate...that's the way I want to be when I grow up too...I often wonder if I'm not a better person to know online than in real life however...<P>

Marie,<P>You're right you don't understand me. And I don't know how to explain myself either. It's true that I'm not an optimist. I consider myself a realist. If I have half a glass of water, I have half a glass. There might be a sink nearby, but it might not work. I consider all the possibilities, not just the ones that look attractive. It does get confusing for me because many times the possibilities contradict each other.<P>And it's not that I want the apology to benefit me. I just want it to be sincere. It's no good if it's not sincere.<P>Lor,<P>I read that thread, but what I've seen of the Bible is talk of one spouse leaving another. It doesn't speak specifically to both deciding to end it. not to my knowledge anyway.<P>Kathi,<P>You're right. I'm getting stuck in solving forever when I should be focusing on solving today and letting forever take care of itself. I just don't want to let it all slip by me. (whatever 'it all' is)<P>I should probably refrain from posting until I get on the meds. I seem to get people a little riled up with my thoughts.

Hey, don't worry about getting us "all riled up"...one reason I usually respond to you is because you often voice things that touch issues on my mind, though often from a different perspective. It often helps me think through things to read/respond to such posts.<P>Anyway, I do think you need to relax more, but I also know how hard that is to do, when what you (& all of us, really) want is a guaranteed blueprint of the future. However, I've found that things I'm trying to resolve tend to resolve NOT when I worry them to death, NOR when I ignore them, but rather when I alternate working and "floating."<P>Kathi<P>BTW...on another subject, H and I took 3 beginning swing lessons...in a few weeks we will start the next session. We have only a few problems:<P>1) he doesn't lead well<BR>2) I don't follow well<BR>3) I have the worst sense of rhythm known to man...the music changes tempo, and it messes me up totally.<P>We managed to have fun anyway, and learn the basic steps, turns etc. And, this instructor is very big on teaching HOW to lead, so that is good. Anyway, it is fun.<P>Kathi<P><BR>