cl...your viewpoint and insight are needed. This is a sticky area for me. I get it when it comes to my life outside my marriage, I am a little cloudy when I apply bounderies other than the most basic in my marriage.<P>WS..yes I agree, but give me a practical example of how you would accomplish this.<P>Sheba...you are a lot like me. My H is not a yeller, but he knows the look and the tone of voice that send me scedaddling. I think he uses it more to end the conflict or discussion more than he uses it out of anger.<P>And yes, I hate the discension, like you said. I hate tension in general or clamour. You are right, I do not have a problem sticking to my ideals as much as tension of the moment. Wow...thanks Sheba...that's insightful. So would that be more conflict avoidance than bounderies? I have to read the book I bought.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

I think it depends how you define conflict??? I also think that defining the word is confusing the heck out of me because :<P>I think that H is a conflict avoider but there are things that CONFLICT with that scenario!!!! Sometimes he Loves conflict - his family thrives on it!!!!<P>But they don't like to hear anything about themselves or how they could improve, etc.<P>As far as what we do? Is there a descension avoider catagory?

Boundaries are tough....we all have this thing called integrity, and when one gets close to our boundaries our integrity gets threatened. Along with many other things mentioned above. <BR>Then we have these big decisions-compromise and see everyone around us be happy?

Sheba...yes I think we belong in this new catagory.<P>cl...yes this is usually the decision. How can I keep everyone happy and meet everyone's needs without compromising our own integrity to a significant degree.<P>A tightrope.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hi, boundaries are a tough subject! I usually don't have a problem saying no to things that are not good for me, I have a problem setting boundaries for "good projects." In my marriage, I am usually the agressor, so any ideas on how to approach my h who is a major conflict avoider would be greatly appreciated. I know that I make him go out of his comfort zone when I approach subjects and really want to learn how to approach him without all of the tension. So, you conflict avoiders need to share any thoughts

OK...a fresh example. We have just gotten back from a trip and have been remodeling through summer.<P>Our house does not have a place for everything currently, and everything is not in its place.<P>My H in his coaching mode told us how we all need to work on this all weekend.<P>He might as well been screaming "I don't love you and I think you are incompetent to run a household."...because that's what I heard.<P>What he meant, when we talked about it, is we all need to focus our time on the house on the weekend when our schedule is free. Including him.<P>The difference is before I would not have broached the subject, just licked my wounds. Now I am better able to come back and resolve the issue.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Oh, this thread is going to be so helpful!!!!<P>Ok - in that same scenario FHL, my reaction would have been internally like yours (defense - onslaught) but I would have stood at attention and saluted with a "Yes, Sir" - That is my avoiding argument by getting a point across and having done with it. <P>Or, depending on my mood, I might have thought " Thank God - just tell me what to do so I don't have to figure out where to start with this mess, and who should do what!!!!<P>Isn't this interesting?<P>

to the top ladies and gents.

Hey I stumbled across a Christian radio program that is featuring forgiveness in marriage this week. I the first day, Sept. 6 was pretty interesting, I heard part of Sept. 7 and that was really good. It is based on a book by Chuck Lynch "I Know I Should Forgive, But..."<P>I'm not good at this link stuff, but if you follow this to Hear Today's Broadcast, then go to the archives and select your date. You can do other things while listening, but you need to stay on line. You may have to download real player if you do not have it. Tell me if you listen.<P>www.familylife.com<BR>click on listen to today's broadcast<BR>click on lower box for archives<BR>click Sept 6 or Sept 7<P>

hi derby, long chain leash with spiked collar and pull him out of the avoidance with a sharp snap? <BR>I am not real familar with your avoider issue, but am wondering if he would respond to the simple straight forward request approach when there is an issue? I suppose that firwst he must realize and accept that he is an avoider. Then when there is an issue, he needs to try to respond with some level of openness, no matter how hard. I amy very well be taking a rather simplistic view of this problem. Maybe some of our conflict avoiders can share how they are overcoming this and how it has effected the ability to forgive?

FYI: I am reading the book by Chuck Lynch and it is a very good book. <P>CL: I do try to ask very direct questions, but at the moment, I get all tense before I ask because I know it makes h uncomfortable. Then we are both tense. I am a person that wants everything out in the open and h wants to pretend that nothing ever happened. It is awful always having to be the one to bring up "issues." <P>Avoiders, is there some way to bring up issues that doesn't totally blow you out of the water and become a major lovebuster. I am working on phrasing and listening to the whole answer and body language because if I push h will give me the answer I am looking for even if he wants no part of it. I know that I do have a control problem. Isn't admitting a problem half of the battle? If only!

Ok - What's going on!!!!<P>I'm here waiting for my lesson!!!<P>HEEELLLLLLOOOOO!!!!<P>Future doormat here if no one helps me learn this stuff!!!!<P>Where is everyone?<P>

I'm with you, Sheeba...inquiring minds want to know...<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Oh FHL - I didn't know you had posted!! Shoot!! I have probably missed you!!<P>Oh well...you'll see this tomorrow then.<P>I printed this all out and in rereading have concluded that I have my biggest trouble with Cure # 3 and # 5 with maybe a tinge of # 1.......<P>The difficulty for me in understanding all of this is that I say sometimes or depends in stead of yes or no to a lot of the self analyzing questions (symptoms) at the beginning of your post.<P>For example :<P>Symptoms -<BR>#'s 1 and 2 - Too cooperative... & Resistance wear down.......<P>My response - sometimes and depends, respectively!!!<P>Sometimes I cooperate because it is better to do so in the long run for the overall purpose of the individual moment. (Does that make sense?) For example - say I don't want to do something and H really wants to. Although I really don't want it I can cooperate because it will add to love bank. If he wanted to ditch prearrange plans with somebody for no good reason than I would not cooperate - love bank be damned!!<P>See what I'm saying!!! I have scenarios for almost all of these symptoms that I can't really say yes or no to them.<P>With the "Cures" -<P>#3 - I will try and try to do as much as I can - constantly trying to widen my limits. Yes I go beyond the point where I should ask for help. This does not however, hinder my forgiveness capabilities. My struggle with my marriage is about the best example of this that I could give. Requiring unapologetic speech and no backpedaling cannot be used if following along with no lovebusters.....Right?<P>#5 Have a big problem with doling out consequences!!!! I feel like a punisher for a child. I look at it that people are adults and should patrol their own words and actions - who am I to punish because I don't agree with their choice.<BR>I feel that if I stand firm with what I have said or done I do not need to react to their inconsiderateness. They will know that I mean it by my standing firm.<P>#1 The problem with saying No comes in to play when my overwhelming need for cooperation and kindness towards others rules.<P>Ok - so what does all this say about me?<BR>Am I boundary - less!!!!<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba <BR>

You're asking ME?<P>I thought I had made it quite clear I needed help. Now I am feeling guilt because I am not helping you?<P>I'm thinking we need a person with one of those big stinky permanent markers to mark our bounderies for us....<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13<p>[This message has been edited by Faith Hope Love (edited September 10, 1999).]

hi all, the enabling spirit is something that I find interesting! Maybe because of my age group and upbringing, but it was the classic pattern in my family of origin (and the gender stereotype was alive and well). I seem to have missed some of the lessons, but learned others very well!<BR>Like others taking advantage of my good nature. I must have been 30 before I realized that those that do this to me really were pissing my off, and I had little respect for them. But instead of telling them that kindness is not weakness, I practiced avoiding them. I did find that rather than confronting, I carried it around and whenever I thought about that person, this little barb of irritation would settle. this was a lesson I should have learned as a child, not when I was 30 yrs old!! <BR>For some strange reason I never had this issue with my H or with family or close friends-they always seemed to respect my boundaries ad limits. It was only with casual aquaintances and co-workers. <BR>I sure hope I have this area under control these days....I think I do!? <BR>I absolutely agree with fhl that while the chapter may suggest detachment, this does not sound pratical at all! I would think, unless you are dealing with one of our famous conflict avoiders, that a direct explanation of the boundaries and reasons would be appropriate. Yeah, mark off the area with a stinky magic marker, but iterate them to your h also! They need to know. <BR>I am not sure how I feel about the consequence part....I guess when I use that word, I tend to think of negative ugly things. Maybe it really does not have to be so negative? Such as, this is how I feel, and this is what I would like to feel, and what are you willing to do to help with this issue? To me, that is a much better way to get there than to say something like this is what I want, and if I don't get it, then this is what will happen! <BR>Of course I may be reading a lot into that number 5 "cure", and the word consequences has negative conotations that may go way back to childhood! <BR>

Is this what you do - FHL?<P>Is it the same or are there differences from mine?<P>you made me laugh!!!!<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba<P>HI CL - be back tommorrow - have to think on what you said!!<P>Hey, where's WS?

OK...I'll get serious. I am seeing that conflict avoiding and not setting good bounderies go hand in hand at times. <P>The rule I hold myself to if I knowly go along with, do or not do something just to avoid a conflict or to be accomodating when it is not really what I want, is to clearly understand my reasoning. I then think of it as my choice (sometimes a wimpy one) I realize I do not have any right to feel put upon or resent the other person. <P>It works for me. Now if someone comes along and takes my good nature for stupidity...they are not likely to repeat. I give them a gentle warning.<P>About consequences. I guess I look at that like "actions have consequences" one of my favorite mom sayings to my kids. By that I usually mean natural consequences, some of which I can not even control. I don't see consequences as a punishment in this context. For instance if my child blows his allowance on something silly, when she sees something she really wants, she may not have enough money. That's a consequence, not a punishment. In setting bounderies outside marriage I think this is easier than within a marriage. Again, if my sister was, I don't know, using abusive language around my kids...I could tell her I loved her and wanted to remain close, but I would not let my kids be exposed to this...if she continued, then I would not invite her to my house, or go to hers until she agreed to abide by my wishes. If you want is healthy or reasonable, then the consequence is natural. You are not punishing by breaking contact, you are doing what is necessary to maintain your boundery. <P>Which brings me to my point how sticky this all is in marriage. Like I said, I have a new book on bounderies in marriage, so maybe I'll have more insight.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

I've edited this post, and deleted it. It was too off topic, and that was selfish for me not to post it on a separate topic.<P><p>[This message has been edited by trustntruth (edited September 10, 1999).]

We are here for you!!!<P>You are valid problems and are filled with legitimate anger.<P>Your H is not honoring you, or does not appear to be. He is not requiring that his daughters honor you.<P>You are trying to protect your son.<P>I have a feeling you don't have total trust in your H right now. You haven't mentioned Hooters again.<P>Are these the problems? More? Feel free to mail me...you never did replace the lost one. I will be limited in time tonight, but I will try!<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13