Yesterday while my H was at work, I started to think about a couple of things and for some reason they started to bother me. One of the things I was thinking about never bothered me before until yesterday. Maybe I'm crazy for letting it bother me or maybe its just my self esteem problem again but I thought I would post it here to see what people thought.<P>My H and I are doing okay. It's not great yet due to my lack of opening up to what he needs to know as far as what happened. I am the betrayer and even though it's been over two years since my PA and almost two years for my EAs my H still has a few questions that I have not answered well enough for him or not at all. This is some of the reason why I think what is really bothering me shouldn't be bothering me. I feel that because I am not giving fully into answering his questions he shouldn't have to give me what has been bothering me.<P>Yesterday I got to thinking about the last time I actually heard my H tell me he thought I was pretty. Or that he loved me. He's told me he loves me if I say it first but I could remember a time that he said it first. I know he has a hard time expressing his feelings even to me. That has been a problem he's had even before we got married eight years ago. But it would be nice to hear it once in awhile. Not hearing that I was pretty or that I looked nice really never bothered me before. He told me I looked good while we were separated (only a couple of times) and that was over two years ago. The funny thing is I can remember when he told one of his female co-workers and our friend that he thought she was pretty.<P>Our friend was struggling in her own marriage and her H was off doing his own thing with his friends. My H told her that even with four kids, her looks and intelligence she could find someone else who would treat her the way she deserved to be treated instead of being threatened by her current H. He has left her a couple of times but has always come back. Even my H has told me without her being around that he thought she was pretty and had a nice body.<P>I know that I'm not the best looking woman in the world. Heck about 75 percent of the women in the world are prettier than I am but that isn't the point. My H still married me and for some reason I feel that he has found something attractive about my looks sometime while we've been together. It would be nice to hear him say that he liked the outfit I was wearing or that he liked the way I did my hair.<P>I've made a decision that as of today I'm watching what I eat. I plan on getting back down to size 3, which was the size I was when we first starting dating over eight years ago. Maybe if I make the effort to look better for him he will make the effort to notice a little. Maybe?????

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hopeful1771:<BR><B>Maybe if I make the effort to look better for him he will make the effort to notice a little. Maybe?????</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, it can't hurt, but I'm going to guess no. It sounds to me like your H may be stuck in his recovery from your A and harboring resentment due to your lack of openness and honesty about...whatever...the details he is requesting. I take it from reading here that to some recovering spouses those details are an important step o in recovery, and a sign of future honesty in the relationship. Your H is likely imagining answers far worse than the truth.<P>As you probably are aware, the Harleys advocate "radical honesty"...100% disclosure of everything to your mate. The Rule of Honesty article discusses that: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3800_honesty.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3800_honesty.html[/url]</A> <P>Once that issue is resolved, you can share with him your needs as far as admiration and affection...important ENs for many people. My W is also very reserved....I have to nag her about being affectionate and saying "ILY" It is annoying and frustrating at times, but it is sort of a training process....you have to realize that some people are just more reserved.<P>Good luck!<P><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited August 12, 2000).]

Mike C2,<P>I understand that he might be hurt by my lack of openness. Some of the problem with that though it this. I did answer many questions for him. Something like 4 or 5 pages worth of questions. He typed them out and then I answered them. <P>He posted about two weeks ago or so and talked about how he was feeling and that those feelings were bringing up more questions. But I have yet to hear or see any of those questions that he had.<P>What I don't get is why can he tell me that our friend is pretty and tell her that he thinks she is pretty but yet he can't tell me the same. Am I being punished because I can't be open and honest? Do I have to reveal everything about why I left and everything about the affair before he can say he loves me? Does he have to put everything behind him just to say three little words?<P>To me it seems that since I had the affair and left him and thought only of myself by having the affair, that the only way to get him to say he loves me is to think only of him until he can put my leaving and my affair behind him. I know he did everything he could think of to get us back together and thought only of me until we were back together. Yes he probably did most of the work during the recovery process. <P>Maybe this is just my taker taking over my giver. Maybe I'm just being selfish to want to hear these things. I just need to think of all he has done to get us to the point we are at know, suck it up and go on.<P>Sorry, I'm just rambling aren't I?<BR>

What details does he want to know? I am in a similar situation and will be married for 9 years in Sept. We are in recovery but its tough going at times. My affair started after my 2nd child was born and I lost alot of weight without dieting and was looking pretty damn good.<p><P>Since I told my husband some times I sense he needs to know more. He said to me one day I wont be able to stop thinking about this until you tell me every place you met and every sex act you did in detail. This scared me for I really am unable at this time to go into the details and hope to get around them. <p><P>So far I have said, "I hope someday I can talk about it. It wasn’t love and I always knew that. If anything he was as ****ed up as me. I can’t keep offering sporadic answers to your questions about him. I am confused myself. Perhaps one day I will be able to compose a letter on my thoughts about it. Looking back it’s so different."<p><P>However if he asks a direct question like did he ever call while I was home? I answer honestly...

LST,<P>I have answered quite a few questions. Mostly dealing with the affair and why i left. Other questions I've either not answered and ignored them (by changing the subject) or I don't answer to his satisfaction. I had a eptopic pregnacy removed about 7 months after our D was born and can't seem to lose the weight I gained. In fact I gained weight and lost some, gained it back etc.<P>My H is the type of person who doesn't work well in the grey areas. Everything has to be black and white for him. He wants to know things like how many times OP and I talked about having sex, excatly what was said in those conversations, did I enjoy it (I didn't. OM was black and I only slept with him once. It hurt) He wants to know everything. When I left him I took our D with him. He wants to know excatly what I was thinking at the time I left and what my parents said to me when I left.<P>What was said and what I was thinking at the time, I have tried to erase from my mind. I don't want to remember what my parents said because I am trying to break the control my parents want to have over me.<P>I just hope that I can answer all the questions he has. He is meeting with the pastor of the church his co-workers attends. I have been going to the church as well a lot lately. I have a gut feeling that when he gets home he is going to have a list of questions a mile long. I just pray that I am able to answer all of his questions that he has.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hopeful1771:<BR><B>What I don't get is why can he tell me that our friend is pretty and tell her that he thinks she is pretty but yet he can't tell me the same. Am I being punished because I can't be open and honest? Do I have to reveal everything about why I left and everything about the affair before he can say he loves me? Does he have to put everything behind him just to say three little words?</B><P>It would seem so. And, in all honesty, as a guy, I can sympathize with him. My W hasn't had an affair, but if she did, and then wanted me back and wanted me to trust her, I would demand that she tell me everything I needed to know. <P>I think that recovery from something like this is sort of like hearing tragic news about a love one. The human reaction is WHAT? What happened? How did it happen??? What EXACTLY happened? Whose fault was it? How can I avoid it happening to me (again)?<P>Harley writes that the wayward spouse owes it to her mate to reveal all details openly and honestly. It may be that he actually is filling in the blanks with details WORSE than the truth..in fact, count on it. And your lack of openness is probably causing him to wonder if there is more deceit in the future.<P>All that said, there certainly has to come a time when this has to be put behind you. Perhaps the two of you have to POJA out an agreement-- one more round of Q & As, and then the subject is dropped forever.<P>You say your H posts here? What is his username?

Mike C2<P>I think maybe I should let you know that my H has known about my affair for well over a year now. Actually it will be two years in December. So I have answered many of his questions.<P>Correct me if I'm reading this wrong but it sounds like your saying that I'm not worthy of having my H's love back. I shouldn't expect him to tell me he loves me and it's going to be months or even years before he may ever love me again or even trust again.<P>I think he has to love me with all his heart to be able to take me back after I left him and to stay with me even after the affair came to light. Yes, I know it make take a long time before I ever regain his trust but I think love is keeping married to me and I would like to hear that he loves me every once in awhile. If he doesn't love me, then I wish he would tell me but I don't think that is the case. I think he does love me.

I think maybe I should jump in here for a minute. . .For those who aren't aware, I am hopeful1771's H.<P>To maybe help clear up some of the questions you may be having. . . <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/004146.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/004146.html</A> This is the thread my W mentioned my posting a few weeks ago. It may help explain a little more without having to rehash everything here.<P>Now, do I love my W? YES I DO. with all my heart. hopeful is correct when she says that I am not very good about expressing my feelings. She commented a couple of time about my say that this friend of ours was attractive. . .She is, she is also pretty young, however my comments are observations and nothing more.<P>My W also commented on my meeting with a minister today. . .I did. We spent nearly two hours today talking. It's pretty difficult to sum up alomst 38 years into 2 hours, but that's what I tried to do. We talked about everything from my fathers death when I was 6, to my W's infidelities, to my confusion of religion. He sees good things for hopeful and I, and has offered to help us, either individually and/or together to not only improve our relationship, but also our relationships with GOD.<P>I told him up front that I was very sceptical and suspicious about a great many things. I told him why I felt the way I do, and I was extremely surprised to hear him say that he not only understood what I was telling him, but that he would feel the same way, had he experienced the same things. This in and of itself was a major shock for me. Most people that I have told about my past and my feelings have made me out to be almost a lunatic, or have simply not wanted to have anything to do with me afterwards. I even told him this as well. He remiained very enthusiatic about offering guidance and assitance to hopeful and I. I plan on meeting with him agin. I plan on attending his church more often. I have a great deal to learn, and today I placed myself on that path. We'll see where I end up . . .<P>God Bless

Hi H1771,<P>[QUOTE]Originally posted by hopeful1771:<BR><B>Mike C2, I think maybe I should let you know that my H has known about my affair for well over a year now. Actually it will be two years in December.</B><P>Yes. I saw the timeframe in the first post. I also see that you two had a thread going in late July, and I got some history. <P><B>I have answered many of his questions.</B><P>I'm sure. Multiple typewritten pages, that is impressive. But I also see that your H had some issues with inconsistencies or evasions in the answers. Being less than forthright or honest (and being caught at it)is certainly not going to help give him closure. You yourself tied his remaining unanswered questions to the problem in your relationship. Here's what you said:<P>"""My H and I are doing okay. It's not great yet due to my lack of opening up to what he needs to know as far as what happened. I am the betrayer and even though it's been over two years since my PA and almost two years for my EAs my H still has a few questions that I have not answered well enough for him or not at all."""" <P>Answering SOME of your H's questions about an affair is not going to give him closure. I mean, this isn't a theory, you are living proof. You also posted here, in a thread that he was participating in, that you are afraid that a truthful answer to some of the questions might be so dire as to cause him to leave you. <P>I think that there is no truth in the world as painful as seeing your W post that. His imagination must be torturing him. Can you see why he would have a problem opening his heart to you while waiting for the other shoe to drop? And you post here saying "Darn, why isn't he more affectionate?" <P><B>Correct me if I'm reading this wrong but it sounds like your saying that I'm not worthy of having my H's love back.</B><P>That may be right or wrong, but I didn't say it, and it is not for me to say. What I'm saying is what you are saying above -- <I>chances are, your husband will not love and trust you -- to the degree you want-- until you become open and honest with him.</I><P>Hey, let's be frank. As the Harleys say, you've given him ample reason NOT to trust you...first with the affair<s>, then with a refusal to give him the honesty and answers he needs to move on. Sure he continued the marriage, probably in hopes of a full recovery to the intimacy, honesty and protection you once enjoyed together (or most people do in early married life). You say yourself that your avoidance of honesty and continued secrets are standing in the way of a full recovery. If there is a wall in his heart, you can't blame him.<P>Did you read the article link I gave you? Why don't you talk to Steve Harvey? He may give you some help on how to get over this hurdle and complete your husband's recovery from your affair. <P><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited August 12, 2000).]

Hopeful1771,<P>I think Mike has hit the nail on the head. I have been betrayed (early on in our marriage) and my husband would not tell me all that I asked after discovery. He would answer some, tire of the questions and start avoiding the questions or saying that he didn't know. I feel that, among other things, contributed to my betrayal of him later on (not saying that I was right or had a right, etc. for having an EA). <P>Since we have been in recovery, I have asked some of those same questions of him, and now he truly no longer remembers. So, I encourage you, no matter how uncomfortable it is to answer all his questions. There are some things that will not make sense to him, most likely, nor you, but when you are in an affair, our reasoning and decisions are not always sound.<P>Do you feel like if you answer these questions, that he will use it against you or put you down? Maybe you fear being this open with him?

Mike C2,<P>After re-reading your last post again I started to think about a few things. I guess with my lack of openness and honesty maybe I'm not willing to have my H love me. I shouldn't expect his love or trust. Heck I'm lucky to have him at all for that matter.<P>No I haven't spoken with Dr Harley. Frankly my H and I don't have the money to be able to do that so I don't see that happening anytime soon. We have been speaking with our pastor and I think over time that will do a great deal of helping with everything.<P>Raskal - <P>I have always had a fear of opening up with people. I even have a problem doing so with my family (parents and sisters). Growing up I never told my parents what I was really thinking because I thought they would think less of me or use what I said agains me. I think that is some of the reason I have problems now. It's hard to break years of habit. <P>I also think that my H will use things agains me and think less of me if I open up completely. Heck I even think if given all the honest answers to his questions, he will leave, take our daughter with him, and I will never see them again. I don't think I could deal with not having them in my life. I love my H very much. I am very angry at myself for letting things get to where they were. I should have not left him. I should have never let my family influence me to leave. If I didn't leave then none of this would have happened. Now I just need to grow up,act my age and talk even if it means losing everything and not getting anything in return

Hey Hopeful and ES,<P>Been a long time since I hung around here on a Sunday (or any day, actually) and I'm certainly not qualified to give actual advice, since David and I are within months of the final date of our D, but... I do have some things to say...<P><B>Hopeful</B>, you are worthy of being loved. No matter what - fat, thin, confused, clear-headed - doesn't matter - YOU ARE WORTHY. Lose the weight if you want to, but not to get love, because it isn't real love if you have to be a size 3 to get it. Yes, you need to tell him the details about the affair(s) if you plan on saving your marriage. I know how hard it is! Remember, I've been on both sides of this thing, and it sucks big time no matter what. When David had his affairs in the 80's, he never told me the whole truth. In my heart, I knew there was more than he was telling, and it ate at me for THIRTEEN YEARS. Do both of you a favor, and answer his questions.<P><B>ES</B>, Ask what you need to know, and TRY to move forward... you have so much going for you! Don't tell Hopeful about the pretty young friend. That comes under the "too much information" catagory, not the total honesty catagory. It hurts her feelings, and does nothing to propel you guys forward. David used to say stuff like this: "Look at that woman at the ice cream store. SHE really belongs there". It would be some overweight woman who was SMALLER than me. What did that say to me? See, ES, it's the underlying messages that hurt the most. It's what we say in our heads, as women especially... and what the remark about the friend said to Hopeful is that "friend is pretty, I am not"... Be careful, no, more like, be gentle. Good job talking to the minister, by the way. You're a good guy. <P>Okay, off the soapbox. <P>You both were so helpful to David and I, and I just wish I could help more. Don't get to where we are: nicer in the midst of our divorce than we were when "working" on our marriage. <P>One thing about David and I is that the truth is out there in all it's ugly glory. It has to be to move forward. Painful as it is. You guys can do this!<P>Sheryl<P>

Hopeful,<P>Have you read Surviving an Affair? I think it mentions that for one to be open and honest, the spouse makes the environment comfortable, so it is easier to "come clean." Maybe, using the POJA, you can ask ES before you answer these questions, that there will be no repercussions. <P>As for ES making mentioning other females are pretty, my husband has done that, and I try and remind him that I need to hear that on ocassion, too. He is good about telling me he loves me, now. <P>Like Sheryl said, you are worthy of your husband's love and adoration!

new_beginning<P>I really didn't expect to see a response from you but I'm glad I did. I realize that I need to tell everything and I have given quite a few answers. I just need to answer those few questions that have come up in the last few months and a few that I just couldn't bring myself to answer when they were first asked.<P>I have seen the "pretty friend" and I do have to agree with ES when he says she is pretty. She's drop dead gorgeous actually and I think he has every right to say she's pretty. I just wish I could look as good as she does. She has four kids and is probably a size 5. The type who could wear a bikini and look good in it. I don't care too much that he tells her that she is pretty but I wish he would tell me the same thing even if its just about the outfit I'm wearing or my hair. Small compliments are better than nothing at all.<P>Raskal<P>I started to read Surviving an Affair but haven't finished it. When ES and I got the book, it was right after our anniversary last September. I had gotten His Needs Her Needs for him for the anniversary and he started to read that book. The reason I haven't finished it is because about a week to a week and a half after we got it we moved and I never got back to finishing it. That is something I need to do.<P>As far as the comments about the pretty friend, I guess I just need to boost my own self esteem about myself. I need to make myself look good or lose weight for myself not my H. It would be nice to hear it from him but it shouldn't affect me as much as it has this weekend. I just make myself upset over something that shouldn't upset me

C2[QUOTE]Originally posted by hopeful1771:<BR><B>After re-reading your last post again I started to think about a few things. I guess with my lack of openness and honesty maybe I'm not willing to have my H love me. I shouldn't expect his love or trust.</B><P>Well, I'm not sure about whether you "deserve" or should "expect" his love or trust.....I don't know, I think your situation is much simpler than that. Some betrayed spouses, say, lostva, aren't interested in the details of their spouse's affairs. They are secure in their recovery. To others, the lies are almost worse than the affair...they need a coming clean and fresh start on honesty in the relationship. Which way a betrayed spouse goes is an individual thing...it could depend on a lot of factors. My guess would be that lostva is the exception and your husband has much more of a mainstream reaction.<P>Clearly, your husband will not live happily with the mystery you have left him. You may stagger on for another two years or thirty two years, but I don't think you will recover his unconditional love until his questions are answered.<P>Hopefully, with the passage of time, your H will be able to handle any revelations, helped by the fact of you being a faithful mother and wife for the past two years.<P>Perhaps you could make a deal like this....<P>On your side, you promise TOTAL honesty to all questions for, say, a 48 hour period during which he can assess and reassess your answers and come back to you for followup. <P>On his side, he promises that he will not move out of the house or react in any precipitous way for a period of time, say 90 days. He also promises that, following this last Q&A, this subject will be CLOSED between you, and he will do his best to become a loving and trusting husband.<P>The kind all women deserve.

Mike C2 -- I feel compelled to respond to some of the things you have said to my W. While it may seem as though I am singling you out, I truly am not. I fully realize that there are probably those who have read this thread and thought the same things, but simply did not respond. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Which way a betrayed spouse goes is an individual thing...it could depend on a lot of factors. My guess would be that lostva is the exception and your husband has much more of a mainstream reaction<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't know how accurate this assement really is. There have been and will continue to be those who need very different levels of disclosure. Unfortunately for me, I am the type of person who has to understand everything. I am not capapble of accepting things at face value. I never really have been. There are times when I truly wish I could change this part of my personality, and I have tried. . . <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Hopefully, with the passage of time, your H will be able to handle any revelations<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have been able to "handle" ANY revelation for a very long time now. Granted had I gotten "full" details immediately, I may not have been able to say this, but it is something I have thought about a considerable amount. NOTHING that my W says is going to drive me away, and i think she knows this. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>following this last Q&A, this subject will be CLOSED<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You have made basically the same comment to her a couple of times now. I honestly don't think this can happen. The general consensous (sp?) was that when I wrote out a list of questions before that the subject was closed. Hell, in some ways, I thought it was closed. As time goes on, things which were intangibles a year ago, are questions today. Isn't this how life itself works? We make a decision. we live with the reamifications, good or bad, of that decision. There almost always comes a time when we sit down and reevalutate that decision. It's not something I chose to do. I didn't intentionally hold back a list of questions. But there are things which I question today just the same. They do not hold the weight my questions did before, but the exist.<P>Wile I was talking with the minister yesterday, he and I discussed this exact topic in some detail. The bottom line is I don't know if I can come up with a "list." I wish I could. In fact hopeful asked me today if I was going to give her a list. I told her that I didn't know. That a lot of the "questions" I have had could be answered by her replying and attempting to help others her on this forum. I am not looking for necessarily difinitive answers. That time period in our lives was extremely convoluted, and I am sure that attempting to give direct answers would be just as confusing.<P>When you take the time to help another, by explaining what you were thinkin and how you were reacting at that point, you give much more information than saying the answer is "B"<P>Does this make any sense at all??<P>God Bless<P><p>[This message has been edited by Empty Shell (edited August 13, 2000).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Empty Shell:<BR><B>The bottom line is I don't know if I can come up with a "list." I wish I could. In fact hopeful asked me today if I was going to give her a list. I told her that I didn't know. That a lot of the "questions" I have had could be answered by her replying and attempting to help others her on this forum. I am not looking for necessarily definitive answers.</B><P>Well, that complicates things. Your previous posts (in late July) seem to speak of specific inconsistencies in her answers....hopefuls posts seem to indicate precise questions that she avoided or doesn't want to answer.<P>It seems like even if you can't devise the questions, she has some secrets. Maybe you play Jeopardy, and she gives the answers first. Ironic name, huh?<P>I think you should also realize that the secrets she holds may be a burden on her heart. Maybe she fears that somehow you may discover something down the road, from other sources or third parties.<P>ES, it sounds to me like you have less need for specific answers and more need for general trust rebuilding....an understanding of WHY your W acted as she did, not so much where, when and what, but why.<P>I can understand that. How can you open up and trust her unless you feel that the dynamic that led to the previous problems is changed?<P>I don't know how to advise you....I'm surprised that you can't come up with some questions...is it that you realy can't come up with ANY, or is it that you don't want to commit to a definitive final list and an "ending" of questions, since you say that they arise over time? <P>Perhaps if you can create an atmosphere where she believes that you will stay with her, over time these secrets and your general issues can be addressed. But I can see that hopeful is struggling with more of a general feeling of malaise from you...she is actually asking for the questions.<P>Have either of your read the article on overcoming resentment here? I can find the url if you haven't. (back with url) <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html</A> <P>I'm sure that there is also a dynamic out there where the betrayed spouse just can't totally forgive and forget...maybe that is what you have to focus on.<P>Mike <p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited August 13, 2000).]

Mike C2 -- <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Your previous posts (in late July) seem to speak of specific inconsistencies in her answers<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes it does, and my W has responded the same way knowing that this is the case. There is no reason for me to revisit to questions. She knows waht they are already. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>ES, it sounds to me like you have less need for specific answers and more need for general trust rebuilding....an understanding of WHY your W acted as she did, not so much where, when and what, but why.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You must be a master at restating what has already been said. This has been discussed many times, and while there are some specific questions concrening her affair's, there are also many more questions which are the why's, much more than the what's. It is these type of questions which are difficult if not impossible to form into specific questions.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Perhaps if you can create an atmosphere where she believes that you will stay with her, over time these secrets and your general issues can be addressed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You obviously have missed some very important points in all of this. Go back at look for posts by hopeful and myself from a year ago (in the read only section). I have made it more than obvious in writing, in words and in action, that my leaving is not an issue. I have also made it blantantly obvious that my having a retaliatory affair is not an option either. I would not wish that type of pain on anyone in the world, and that includes the OM.<P>Hopeful and I have read just about every word on this forum. We have been here for a very long time, and have been involved with things on this board which you can only imagine.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm sure that there is also a dynamic out there where the betrayed spouse just can't totally forgive and forget...maybe that is what you have to focus on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Again, longevity on this board gives much more insight to comments like this. I forgave my W a very long time ago, and this has been discussed here many times in the past. Forgiveness can and does happen fairly regularly here, however, forgetting is another issue all together. We (both betrayed and betrayer) will never forget what has happened. While we may loose some of the specific details as time goes on, we never forget what happened, It simply is not possible, short of a physical injury or illness. The goal for all of us who want our marriages to survive is to forgive, and to rebuild. we really don't want to forget. After all it has been said that <B>if we forget the past we are doomed to repeat it.</B><P>God Bless<P>

Mike,<P>I am a bit confused here. The quote below I found from a previous post started by you. You were asking a hypothetical question and this was in your second post after you received a response. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Again, this isn't in my personal experience, but I guess that if my W discovered an affair by me, part of me would HOPE that she would go totally nuts, not just sort of accept the situation and let it go on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This quote is from your second post here on my thread.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And, in all honesty, as a guy, I can sympathize with him. My W hasn't had an affair, but if she did, and then wanted me back and wanted me to trust her, I would demand that she tell me everything I needed to know. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Here is what I don't understand. Did you have an affair or did your wife? From these two quotes, neither one of you had an affair but you post like you have lived through infidelity. <P>I do not know for sure whether you have lived through this horrible tragedy. I could be wrong in assuming that you haven't lived through it but it seems to me not. I tried to read your story under the sunglasses but there was nothing there so I don't know your story. I would like to know what you have been through so that I can relate it to my story and maybe understand your posts here.<P>I believe that people can forgive infidelity. It might take time but forgiveness is obtainable. I know that God has forgiven me for what I have put ES through. I also know that ES has forgiven me, but forgetting is harder to do. And forgetting what happened and the problems that lead up to the infidelity may lead the same problems and another affair to happen again.<BR>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Empty Shell:<BR><B>You obviously have missed some very important points in all of this. Go back at look for posts by hopeful and myself from a year ago (in the read only section). I have made it more than obvious in writing, in words and in action, that my leaving is not an issue.</B><P>Well, I may have missed that, but more to the point, your W must have to, since she has repeatedly posted recently that it is still her fear. In fact, she said this a few hours ago: "Heck I even think if given all the honest answers to his questions, he will leave, take our daughter with him, and I will never see them again. I don't think I could deal with not having them in my life."<P>So, I would think that you may still need to build that atmosphere of her trust in your staying...not here on this board or in the archives from a year ago, but in the heart and mind of your W. <P>Mike<P>