Hey Steve H...er...I mean K. ,<P>I simply wanted to thank you for a post you wrote last week in the recovery area. You said - <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think that it's Steve's belief that my wife hasn't fully "processed" the affair and moved past it yet. Some people don't need to---they can compartmentalize it and learn new behaviors without going through the typical "grief---withdrawal---guilt---recovery" process. Compartmentalization is something I do very well at---I've learned to compartmentalize my sex life (which is extrememly important for me) away from how I feel about the rest of my marriage (which is extremely good---about an 8.5 on a 10 scale today). I used to use the sex as a yardstick for the marriage---I think it's a pretty useful measurement, but in some cases (like this), the dysfunction is in a specific area and not reflective of the whole of the relationship. Being able to separate the dysfunction from the relationship lets me function pretty well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've been feeling rather low lately. I was certain - I was different from others in that my marriage wasn't healing as it should. I realize that I have probably been using sex as a yardstick in determining the quality of my marriage. I have also been frustrated by those who sometimes post "we only have sex 2-3 times a week - I wish my spouse wanted sex more often" - aaaarrrrgggghhhhh! It makes me feel like a sexual failure. In reality, I know I'm not a failure. Practically every other area of my marriage is doing better than it ever has. <P>I often wonder in we betrayed men have a more difficult time healing this area of our marriage than betrayed women. It seems that women who have fallen to this sin have a difficult time recovering their sexual desire for their husbands. I don't know. <P>I too have been told I'm doing all the right things (very depressing). Perhaps more TIME - don't you hate that word?<P>K, thank you for helping me understand that I shouldn't use sex as a measuring stick. I've heard it before, but it needs to be driven into me. It is a problem area, but it doesn't mean my wife doesn't love me or that my marriage isn't getting better. My wife still has a lot of healing to do - and perhaps - so do I. <P>Thanks again K.<P>God Bless,<BR>SHA<P>------------------<BR>There is only one happiness in life, to love and be loved.<p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited August 14, 2000).]

SHA:<P>You're quite welcome... but hey, here's some earth-shattering news for you!<P>(No, not THAT... )<P>I FIRED STEVE HARLEY TODAY!!!<P>In all seriousness, my wife and I have discussed the fact that she's still stuck, and she's willing to give counseling another shot. And the fact that the phone counseling is pretty darn convenient (even if you do have to do the paperwork)---she thought that she'd give MB another try. But with Jennifer Harley Chalmers!<P>I talked with Steve briefly for a bit this morning, and he was pretty excited about the news. And I got some good things to chew on, that I'll share with you.<P>1. Are you an expert at meeting your wife's Emotional Needs? Do you know what they are? Does she?<P>When Steve asked me that, I basically said that I *think* I'm doing a pretty good job at meeting the needs, but yet if I grade myself by the "romantic love" (or sex) quotient, I'd have to say I'm missing the mark somewhere. We discussed why my wife was able to fall in love with the OM---what did he do for her that I didn't?<P>Basically it boils down to a combination of affection and admiration. And I'm probably not doing the admiration thing to enough of an extent. Why??? Because it wasn't on her "top 5" list...<P>But Steve warns that you shouldn't depend solely on verbal feedback from your spouse (and he makes a point of that in his "food for thought"). It's one thing to "ask" her what her needs are (you'll get one set of answers). But you need to also look to other areas, if you're in a holding pattern. So, it's time to increase the "admiration" dosage; especially in public situations. We're going away for a family vacation shortly (my brother is getting married this week), and that'll be a great opportunity.<P>Another thing that Steve pointed out is that my wife and I haven't really been on the "same page" as far as recovery goes. He's hoping that Jennifer can demonstrate the importance of that, so that we can be working jointly on a plan for recovery. If this is the case, Steve predicts full and rapid recovery. <P>I'm afraid that we're taking the long road, SHA. It might do you good to talk with Steve, and perhaps ask your wife if she's join in and try some counseling with one of them. I'm guessing that you've build up enough good will with your wife so that she'll realize that you have the best interests of your marriage at heart.<BR>

Can I horn in here, guys? (& *sorry* for that bad pun! )<P>I'd like to add my $.02 as a betraying W who had come to realize that her H was a pretty fabulous guy after all... make that AMAZINGLY fabulous... can you say GUILT????? How about SHAME?????<P>I had a huge problem with sex in my marriage after my affair. For years, I thought it was because (since Dunc hadn't known) I had a major skeleton in the closet. So six yrs after it started, I told. I hoped that would break down the wall between us. It helped, but not much.<P>This is the crux of it: in a word, sex was excruciating. Not physically, but emotionally. It wasn't because I didn't love Dunc, or desire him, or *want* to be close to him - it was because obviously sex is about as intimate as two people can get, and I had such a *deep-seated* sense of unworthiness and shame that I literally couldn't look him in the eye. How can you look into someone's soul, and allow them to look in yours...?... the more intimate we got, the more uncomfortable I got. A woman has to believe in the *value* of the gift of her intimacy to be able to give it.<P>As Just Learning phrased it recently to someone, "You really don't feel worthy to be in the marriage, do you?" I didn't see any way to re-earn my value within the marriage, to "balance the accounts". And this had nothing to do with the way Dunc treated me - he didn't throw my affair in my face at all.<P>I honestly think this is the trouble your W's are struggling with. They are perhaps not even aware of it. I wasn't, myself, until I stumbled across an article about shame in the Atlantic Monthly years ago, and burst into tears. It was like a lightbulb going off in my head.<P>OK, now the bad news is that I don't have a "fix-it" answer for you. It's a REAL toughie to overcome, even if you know what the problem is (& like I said, it took me years to figure even that part out). <P>I was making some progress in counseling, especially with a technique called EMDR (which is used to 'reprogram' deep-seated emotional problems - blockages - it is often used for post-traumatic stress patients). I can give you more info on that if you'd like.<P>Finally, what turned the tide for me was when Dunc finally ran out of gas emotionally, became depressed, and had his own brief affair. Which I had the pleasure of riding in on my white steed and rescuing him from . While this is NOT a technique I'd recommend -!- it gave me a chance to complete healing by being the strong one, the wise one, the needed one. I felt essential to the marriage equation for the first time in many years.<P>I just can't describe to you guys strongly enough how beat down, how useless, how foolish a betraying W feels, ESPECIALLY once she is back in the marriage and fully cognizant of what she almost threw away (you!). It is *very* difficult to grapple with. I think your W's can't make love with you because she literally has a visceral feeling inside that she is not worthy to. This is so deep down, subconcious, that I doubt she is even aware of it.<P>Like I said, I don't have a quick fix for you - I think that it is probably different in each marriage - but I'm nearly certain this is the main problem. She can find no way to redeem herself and her value to the marriage in her own mind and to her own satisfaction.<P>Gotta run - kids to dentist - food for thought I hope!<P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

suse:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>OK, now the bad news is that I don't have a "fix-it" answer for you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Then go away... if there's not a "quick-fix" involved, I don't want to hear it... <P>I think that you're probably on target here. I'm hoping that Jennifer will be able to help my wife over this in less than a few more years---and no, I'm not planning any affairs to "help the process" either. But I think that you're right---this is in essence a "self-worth/self-esteem" issue in terms of my wife not feeling that she contributes to the marriage.

Hi, K,<P>I'm glad you checked back in - have been meaning to post to you on this for awhile, ever since I spotted another of your posts on the subject recently.<P>Yeah, it's a heavy, heavy debt to repay... in your W's situation I'm not at *all* surprised she's having trouble. You know, "Saint K" & all that ! (We had a little Saint Dunc going on in my mind too... meanwhile, I'm feeling like Mary Magdalene or something!)<P>Good luck w/ her counseling w/ Jennifer - let me know if there's *anything* I can do to help. I don't know if she'd be interested, but I'd be willing to email privately if you two think it might help her to correspond w/ someone who really understands this situation...<P>SHA, glad to hear from you after a long time, too! And that your efforts have borne some fruit. Hang in there. My offer is open for you too!<P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

I don't want to intrude here, but I'm going to anyway. <P>Suse, what you wrote here was a big, flashing neon sign to me. My W has expressed the same things. I need to know everything you can tell me about how to help overcome this. She is really stuck in the "I don't deserve anything, every nice thing you do for me must be repaid" mode of thinking. It's getting to be tough on me. It's also a way for her to deflect the lovebank deposits: If she does something nice back, the books are balanced and she don't risk getting loving feelings back and being disappointed if I change my mind about loving her.<P>Anyway, I am very interested in how to approach this problem.<P>Slightly Sane<P><p>[This message has been edited by o2bsane (edited August 14, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suse:<BR><B>This is the crux of it: in a word, sex was excruciating. Not physically, but emotionally. It wasn't because I didn't love Dunc, or desire him, or *want* to be close to him - it was because obviously sex is about as intimate as two people can get, and I had such a *deep-seated* sense of unworthiness and shame that I literally couldn't look him in the eye. How can you look into someone's soul, and allow them to look in yours...?... the more intimate we got, the more uncomfortable I got. A woman has to believe in the *value* of the gift of her intimacy to be able to give it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Wow, I just wanted to say that your post really spoke to me, as I mentioned to K on another board. (Actually, it was while I was playing tennis with him in his Steve Harley costume <P>We have not suffered an infidelity, but my W is very withdrawn and has self esteem issues. I think that is a major block for her.<P>Anyway, thanks for the insight.<P>Mike<BR>

suse:<P>Are you sure YOU'RE not Steve H? I can't remember if I ever discussed this on the board, but...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You know, "Saint K" & all that!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Steve and I had that conversation quite a while ago (to that exact phrase). It certainly doesn't help things to have that personna, and I think that's one of the reasons she's never really participated in the board here (there are others, of course).<P>Ah well, we're looking forward to vacation. <BR>

Not Steve H....I swear... I just have a little more experience in these matters than I'd really like to! (makes you wonder how HE knows so much, doesn't it?? ) Besides, I've been married to Saint Dunc (aka "Jesus of Bridgeport", no offense intended to anyone...) for 22 yrs. I know whereof I speak!<P>Have a *great* vacation! Along those lines, do you (or have you) & Mrs. Saint K ever get away w/out the little ones? I swear, that weekend or two a year kept our marriage limping along... helped us remember we could actually *enjoy* each other when out of the every-day stuff! ('Course, the key is figuring out how to enjoy each other IN the everyday stuff... but that's another story! ) It really reminded us that there was stuff there worth saving.<P>Anyway, hang in there K. I know you two will work this out. It didn't happen quickly for us either - but it did happen.<P> <P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

We got away without the little ones once about 4 years ago... <P>But we're planning a trip this winter for a week together sans rugrats, and this has been a "joint" project. I offered to take her on a V-day cruise, but she didn't think that having Steve H on board would make it so romantic (I think she has visions of a cabin with electroshock therapy gear, and 50 LB/EN questionnaires to fill out... . This upcoming trip (tomorrow) will be for 10 days: we're going to watch my brother get hitched (and yes, he does get Harley's "Four Gifts of Love" for a wedding present), and then we're spending a week with my extended family on a lake. It'll be the first family vacation like this for us---ever! We're also trying to schedule a week "family" trip down to Florida for next year.<P>We're actually doing a terrific job enjoying ourselves "in" real life---but it's not to the point where my wife has let go of her feelings of inadequacy and guilt. But honestly, she's been sprinkled with holy water a few times in the past year, and she no longer bursts into flames---you'd think she would have figured it out by now. <p>[This message has been edited by K (edited August 15, 2000).]

"Holy water", hmmmmmmm?

Hey Suse & K, <P>Mind if I butt in? <P>Suse, you have an excellent point in your first post. I know my wife feels as thought she doesn't deserve the treatment I shower her with now. I don't do the things I do to make her feels guilty, I do them because I love her. Earlier in our marriage I think she really questioned whether I loved her or not (of course I did). I'm just much better at expressing myself now.<P>We are moving forward in recovery. It...is...just...a...very...long...process. But, as long as we coninue to move forward, I'm sure we'll get there. <P>I doubt my wife would be interested in emailing anyone about this. I think she is trying to bury it and bury the shovel. I will keep it as an option. <P>Thanks again you guys. As usual, you have been a tremendous help.<P>God Bless,<P>SHA<P>------------------<BR>There is only one happiness in life, to love and be loved.

Just had to drop in to say, K and SHA...you are two cool guys!<P>Suse, you are one wise woman!

Hi, FHL!<P>Thanks for the kudos... been following your Big Thoughts & Big Plans threads lately - how are you doing this week? I can tell you have lots of "stuff" burbling around in that head of yours! <P>Also been thinking about you & "Clueless" - since he seems to be a close relative of my FIL - my MIL went through a very difficult period awhile back, she & he are VERY different (he's ISTJ, she's ENFJ), and she was feeling very resentful and not 'understood' - but somehow they seemed to be able to work out finding some common ground in the middle - "Mr. Logic and Mrs. Emotional Do Dialogue"! lol! But you know, my FHL is utterly devoted to my MIL - he has trouble even understanding what the fuss is all about sometimes - but he *cares* and he tries. And I'm sure your H is utterly devoted to you & your family too. <P>I know maybe you don't have "too much to work with" sometimes - my MIL has had to satisfy some of her emotional needs outside the marriage (NOT affairs!! Deep discussions w/ friends, church things, school, etc - and now she is a Christian counselor) - but I know you two will work it out. Dunc & I have learned to enjoy our differences more too. I think all the thinking & learning & planning you're doing is wonderful. You are a very wise woman too!

Hi Suse,<BR>I'm fine, but my MaDonna recreate was put on hold.<P>When I put Old Pup to sleep, my H and girls drove all through the night to be with me. Now I choose to believe my H did not want me to be alone, but there is just a tiny piece of me that counters with the idea that he had three sobbing girls and he needed to get them back to their Mom before his head split open <P>While at the vet, I spontaniously broke out in a horrible rash all over my chest and stomach which blistered oozed and now am on prednisone and an antibiotic plus an antihistimine. I think the infection and medication is making me restless and tired, quesy and unfocused...and my body looks like a raw piece of meat, so it hasn't been the romantic reunion I envisioned. Plus of course we are all grieving our loss. I think I may have worked much of it out the last few months, so although I miss her, it is easier to "let go" than I would have figured, except the actual letting go which was quite horrible.<P>Other than that, H has been very nice and actually very considerate, for him.<P>However, I really almost fell out of the bed the other night when H and I were talking about a sail boat for sale. We had agreed not to look until next spring, but living in a harbor town, sometimes deals are just too good to pass up. Anyway, I though we were talking pros and cons of this particular boat when H asks me if I really want a sailboat.<P>I pause, wondering where he was going on this and he said something like "I've been thinking (something new) and it seems that this marriage has always been about what I want, and you always let me have everything I want. I want you to have what you want."<P>Believe me, this was big. Not that my H is selfish, he is not. He really always wanted me to have what I wanted, but really mde no joint effort, kind of expecting me to budget for it if it was important. I would have loved new carpet, furniture and a more decorated house and landscaped yard, but it truly was never as important to me as whatever he had on his recreational mind was to him. I did give in and deny my material wants, but it was not out of weakness as much as I was more easily content with what I had than he was with what he had. So I never really blamed him openly or in my own thoughts, although sometimes I would tire of paying for one toy as I saw him cast his eye on another.<P>So maybe clues are surfacing?<P>You are right, he is totally devoted to our family, which in his mind most definetely includes me. I see signs that he may be willing to single me out more than he has.<P>Anyway, it was good to get this down...maybe a bridge back to revisiting my Madonna recreation. I think I will let myself heal a few more days and tackle the laundry before I push myself too hard. Thanks for listening, Suse!

Wowwww.... poor you!<P>I meant to post on your "pup" thread but got sidetracked... I do know how awful it feels. We had two wonderful dogs (one golden retriever, one half Irish setter mutt) - got them the year after we married. We had to put down the goldie at age 10 (she was my baby!), & the other at 13 (literally the day I was told to go into hosp to be induced w/ my 2nd baby - now 7!). It tears you up, doesn't it? We had adopted an aged Dalmatian from friends who moved - had her for 2 yrs - had her put down 2 yrs ago (RIGHT AFTER DUNC CAME HOME FROM "THE" TRIP TO CA. TO MEET ONLINE OW!!). *Now* we're thinking about getting another golden...& maybe another mutt?? <P>What is the rash?? Do you think it was just mega-stress? Hope you're looking (& feeling) less like hamburger very soon! I think you need a loooong weekend away *just* w/ H. <P>It's sweet he's getting a clue. There's hope!<P>Gotta run outa here now - hang in there, FHL. Hey, for a real upper, have you read Ceecee's new thread, and Lori (Lostva)'s ramblings? Lots of good things going on here lately. This place is truly amazing. I can't help coming back over & over.