Leon,<P>Thanks for keeping up on my situation. I, too, feel like I am getting closer to the real Plan A, the focus on me. Intellectually I understand it perfectly and it does make alot of sense to live your own life and be a happy person with and without your spouse but now I just need to get there through my actions, and that is the hard part, but I am working on it!<P>You asked why I am in the infidelity boards-I just want to keep up on everything and try to learn as much as I can, and I haven't totally ruled out infidelity for my H.-I don't think it is the case, but I am keeping my eyes wide open.<P>I look forward to your upcoming posts of progress and I do hope you are way wrong about that sinking feeling you've got!<p>[This message has been edited by Wifeofcop (edited September 30, 2000).]

Leon, <P>real understanding of your W in your posts about her FOO. That is a very difficult situation, as I was in a similar situation also, and it is a repetition of what they think life should be, albeit without realizing they are repeating the past, and anger at you may be anger at them, etc.<P>Sounds like its bigger than you, and your W needs lots of personal work to get through this. You can read my post in EN on "How do you know when to give up" or close to that.<P>There may be some similarities. My STBX said that were parents should have been divorced, and since they didn't, and she doesn't want to live like them, we should. Now I wasn't living like them, nor acting like them, so it isn't my issue. But I never liked my ILs, they are weird and just wierder. So its understandable that STBX followed the same pattern as MIL but is not getting the same results, confusion reigns.<P>So hang in there, prepare for the worst, practice for the best in yourself, and life will get better, <someday><P>thl

aaa<p>[This message has been edited by Hurting Badly (edited December 12, 2000).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hurting Badly:<BR><B>She says it's all business now, but I'm getting the same signs again. Too subtle to really explain, but an increased irritability, frustration, and anger on her part. I may be imagining it, but I'm seeing more of the old signs creeping back in...</B><P>Hey bud....<P>Well, I was touristing through here, and came across this thread with a sinking heart. I guess you are off the EN board for a reason, huh?<P>I hope you are wrong in your suspicions. According to Harley, anger, anxiety and depression (pretty close to your terms up above)are part of withdrawal, so you should expect to see that. In fact, it may sound nuts, but you should be more concerned if she was skipping around the house whistling.<P>Remember, withdrawal from the OM should take some months even in the case of a complete no contact. With daily contact....you could be in for a long haul. The signs you relate could just be part of the fog from that withdrawal...<P>I suspect you have read it, but here is a good Harley article on dealing with a BS withdrawal in the wake of an affair.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html</A> <P>As far as your suspicions....what does Steve say?<P><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited October 02, 2000).]

aaa<p>[This message has been edited by Hurting Badly (edited December 12, 2000).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hurting Badly:<BR><B>Steve doesn't seem too interested in this issue at the present. He is more focused on progress.</B><P>Well...again. to mkae my point....I think if he thought GG's attitude, as reported by you and expressed in their phone counseling, was not indicative of a withdrawal phase from an affair, he wouldprobably be paying more attention to the possibility that they are at it again. I don't think they are, bud. Her symptoms sound like what they should be if she is going through the "mourning" phase.<P><B>I really hope she gives anti-depressants a try. I don't think there's any bad stigma associated with it.</B><P>I only have a fleeting impression of GG, but I would be concerned that the "dulling" effect of many anti-deps would drive a type-A person like her nuts. It did to me. She may have to try a few before she finds one she can handle her career on.<P><B>How's your progress? (and No, I don't want to hear that you got lucky again! ).</B><P>Well, there was sort of a big new issue that came up, and I don't think it is for the best. Maybe it is, though. I talk with Steve this afternoon. I don't want to post about it until I sort it out and get his opinion.<P>You and GG ever consider moving to a new state?<P>

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

aaa<p>[This message has been edited by Hurting Badly (edited December 12, 2000).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hurting Badly:<BR><B>Mike, I hope you're right. Certainly her behavior is textbook withdrawal symptoms.</B><P>I'm sure it is. Again, I'd be worried if the opposite behavior was exhibitied.<P><B>You see, while GG is trying to work on the marriage, she is not willing to do many of the things that Steve would recommend (or that would seem obvious to most people). E.g. she won't change jobs (to get rid of OM contact or reduce her stress), even though she has many job offers from other places (many would be better that her current job, IMHO).</B><P>Well, you'll recall that pretty much is the first thing I said to her. It is going to be longer, more painful, and less likely a recovery with that contact happening.<P><B>She won't spend more time with me to try to "build good memories"; in fact she keeps asking for more space. I'm not even talking about things like dates, affection, or sex. Basically, she won't take any drastic steps that someone really interested in saving a marriage would take (IMHO).</B><P>I'm not sure, Leon, but I'm fairly positive that it is way to early to expect that from her. She has to get through withdrawal, which is several months under the best of circumstances, which is not the case here. Only then will her attention turn to you. <P>Mike

Leon,<P>I've said it to you, you've said it to me, and now I'm saying it to you again, it appears as though our marital situations mimic each other, what happens to one of us usually ends up happening to the other! With GG being depressed, that is just one more thing! <P>I have absolutely no proof, but I am starting to feel as though infidelity may be the main source of my marriage troubles, it is just a gut instinct, but I am usually right about my instincts-I just hope not this time! I am keeping my eyes open a little wider!<P>I know others have already said this to you, but you really do have alot to be thankful for that GG is counseling and at least going through the motions to see if the marriage will work for her--that is a huge step, one that I wouldn't mind my H. mimicing!

Test

Hello,<BR>PensiveGG lost her password, so I found another name and password.<P>I had to join this thread. For those of you that don't know me, I am Leon's WS. AND I AM NOT SLEEPING WITH THE OTHER MAN!<P>I am depressed, lost, and horrified. I fell in love with my husband 11 years ago and expected that we would be in love forever. My H did not meet my ENs--for years. Being a venutian, mostly I could not figure out why I was hurting or what I was feeling. In addition, given that my parent's relationship was so bad--and I was not going to repeat that mistake--I NEVER looked at my relationship with my husband as the source of my problems. That was off limits.<BR>But, when I did understand small specifics when things weren't right--I complained. Maybe I didn't complain properly (didn't read the martian/venus book at that time), but Leon knew what I was asking and chose to ignore it--for 11 years. So, I was miserable, and didn't know why. I guess I started withdrawing and in turn, stopped meeting my H's ENs.<P>I had an A and I understand what that has done. Leon did make HUGE changes--after I had given up for what I thought was for good. I made mistakes--mostly recently, Leon has made mistakes--mostly in the past. We are trying to work on this. He has bad days. I have bad days.<P>No, I am not optimistic:<P>1. My husband ignored my ENs for most of our 11 year marriage. I am wary of this "new him"--it is very close to the man I married 11 years ago that promptly did an "about face" after the honeymoon.<P>2. I fell in love with the OM. Didn't mean to, certainly didn't expect to. Stupid.<P>3. Regardless of my H's being reinvented, I have a wall of resentment about as high as one can be. I cannot imagine getting over all of the hurt that I felt for so long.<P>4. My H knows I had an A, and knows that I am still in love with the OM. And has misinterpreted by depression and pain and thinks that I am sleeping with him again.<P>So, who thinks this is going to work?<P>-GG<P>

Sorry!<P>I forgot to respond to the thought that HB thinks I have future plans with OM. I do not. We split because we both knew that we needed to s*** or get off the pot and we both decided to go home and try again.<P>L--I would have answered this stuff directly to you, but since I might not see you until Saturday morning--I figured I should respond before you go ahead and file.<P>-GG

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Leon's Wife:<BR>[B]I am depressed, lost, and horrified.[/g]<P>I think that about covers it. As I said elsewhere in this thread, that is where you should be, that is the stage.<P>You should be confused over Leon's changes...it is new. Will it be real? What do you think? I think that all of us that have been enlightened by all this marriage stuff will never act the same way again.<P>I think Leon loves your guts, and has hung in there remarkably tough in the face of...all this. He has inspired many people here.<P>Leon thoughts here were just expressing his worse fears. I think it is intuitive to a person in his situation to think that his mate, having decided to work on the marriage, would just fall passionately back into his arms. We know that isn't true, but it is what FEELS like should be happening, if you are Leon. <P>Hang in there. These are the tough days. Try not to get too low.<P>Mike <p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited October 05, 2000).]

GG,<P>I'll use the first name I have known you by. <P>I won't disagree with any of your points. How could I? I wasn't there. But I will say that you are making one very large mistake. The Leon you married never really changed, but he did misinterpret signals. You say he should have known how much he was hurting you from your signals.<P>But the fact of the matter is he didn't. He isn't unique GG. This web site is littered with people who did see or misinterpretted their spouses signals: men and women. The reason the Men are from Mars and women are from Venus, books are so popular is not that they may be right in detail, but they do represent peoples lives. The misinterpretation of interpersonal communications.<P>I will say one thing to you and one thing only. <B>In all that Leon did wrong, he never meant to hurt you. </B><P>Pleae if you understand one thing in all of the information posted here understand that. If he had, he would be gone now. You have gotten him back in spades, in a way that I don't think even you appreciate. The only thing left for you to do is show up pregnant from OM. <P>So GG, when you review the past 11 years, I believe you should ask yourself. In all of the dumb and painful things Leon did, is he aware of them know? Would he be more aware now? Can I communicate what I need better now? If you can GG, your marriage cannot only be restored, it can be something way beyond anything you have experienced so far.<P>That is a fact Lady. You two have alot going for you and you easily feel for OM in less than 4 months. So you know love can be developed. You did it by meeting OM's needs and he meeting yours.<P>GG, just remember, he never meant to hurt you. <P>God Bless,<P>JL

Hello,<P>JL: My inititaing the A had nothing to do with "getting him back". I didn't even understand at that point what I was running from. I was only just getting to a place where I was understanding what my problems with my H were.<P>I started the A because I was emotionally empty. It was obvious to me that though my H might "love" me--MAYBE (weak at best)--he certainly didn't like me and he made it obvious. We are very different people and it was clear to me that he didn't like "my type". However, as angry as I realize that I was/am, never did the thought cross my mind that I was "getting him back".<P>I also have to share that I do understand what that decision (The A decision) has done (lots of references to me not fully owing up to the A and not understanding the impact it would have). I have apologized--many times; and I am amazed that H can stand the sight of me.<P>But I also don't think it was completely my fault. Certainly, yes, it was my decision to sleep with another man. Making that decision BEFORE I left my H was a mistake and totally my responsibility. However, the marriage environment and emotional state I was in was in large part due to my H. If I had been happy at home or even felt liked by my H, I would NEVER have had an A. If my H had paid ANY attention to my complaining (note I am not a whiner or a nagger) and acknowledged his part in my being unhappy, this would never have happened. I feel that I was beating my head against a wall for 11 years.<P>So, where does that leave us? With better understanding of our mistakes and lots more pain. No other conclusions, we will wait and see.<P>-GG

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Leon's Wife:<BR><B><BR>So, who thinks this is going to work?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I do! Your story is mine w/out the affair! I have tremendous hope for you and here's why:<P>1) You are on this forum, learning things about yourself and Leon that you never knew before! You are educating yourself for your own good and for the good of your marriage, no matter how it ends up!<P>2) You are counseling w/Steve! Enough said there.<P>3) Leon is extremely committed to making your marriage be all the wonderful things you two originally intended for it to be!<P>4) Even though you are pessimistic right now, you do have hope-that is very evident or you would not be here!<P>My H. is where you are right now (except you are trying and he is not)-he is not in love w/me, doesn't know if he wants to be, is depressed, thinks he is or will end up being the "bad guy" if divorce does happen.<P>I don't think you should feel like the "bad guy" or that you are being bashed by Leon or anyone here. I don't know if Leon feels this way too, but I told my H. that if he does try to restore the "in love" feeling and it doesn't work then I agree it is time to move on and i would not blame him. I don't want to be married to him if he does not love me-that is not fair to anyone!<P>I will, however, lose alot of respect for him if he does give up w/out trying!<P>Hang in there and try to deal with some of your resentment, you may find some peace if you do! I am currently reading "Relationship Rescue" and it deals alot w/identifying your resentment, dealing with it, and letting it go! I think Leon may have this book in his reading arsenal!<P>

<BR>Hi GG!<P>[QUOTE]Originally posted by Leon's Wife:<BR><B>We are very different people and it was clear to me that he didn't like "my type".</B><P>Funny you should say that. I forget whether you were in on the Myers-Briggs discussions, but I seem to recall that Leon thought that you were an ENFP (like me), and he was an ISTJ (almost like my wife....she tested to an "F" instead of a "T", but I think she is very borderline there.)<P>Our combinations make for high maintenance relationships but very powerful couples. We bring an awesome array of strengths to a family. But we have to work harder on communication and understanding, because our outlooks are different.<P>So...you are different people, yes. But look at the combined skill sets you have! Look at how you can fill each others gaps. Opposites attract for a reason.<P><B>But I also don't think it was completely my fault.</B><P>I think Leon has very consistently expressed his guilt and remorse over his part in the fracture.<P>You know, sometimes it is the little things that make you think about your marriage. Last year, perhaps in the same ENFP/ISTJ frustration you found yourself in, I went alone to a local marriage counselor, without my wife knowing.<P>He turned me onto marriagebuilders, but that is incidental.<P>We had a pretty fun conversation, strangely...I found it liberating to take all my thoughts out for a walk. We had a lot of laughs...<P>At the end of the session, he said "You know, my wife and I (his wife is a counselor too) were commenting the other day on something. Every single day, almost, someone sits in our office having problems with a second or third or fourth marriage, and almost inevitably, they express the same thought. "I'll never find the bond I had with my first spouse again. He/she was the best. I'll regret forever that I didn't work harder to make that relationship work."<P>Anyway, that throwaway comment at his doorway has shaped a lot of my thinking over the last year.<P>Mike<P><BR>

aaa<p>[This message has been edited by Hurting Badly (edited December 12, 2000).]

Hi GG:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Leon did make HUGE changes--after I had given up for what I thought was for good. I made mistakes--mostly recently, Leon has made mistakes--mostly in the past. We are<BR>trying to work on this. He has bad days. I have bad days.<P>No, I am not optimistic:<P>1. My husband ignored my ENs for most of our 11 year marriage. I am wary of this "new him"--it is very close to the man I married 11 years ago that promptly did an "about face" after the honeymoon.<P>2. I fell in love with the OM. Didn't mean to, certainly didn't expect to. Stupid.<P>3. Regardless of my H's being reinvented, I have a wall of resentment about as high as one can be. I cannot imagine getting over all of the hurt that I felt for so long.<P>4. My H knows I had an A, and knows that I am still in love with the OM. And has misinterpreted by depression and pain and thinks that I am sleeping with him again.<P> So, who thinks this is going to work?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Add me to the list of believers. My H ignored my ENs for 18 years. But, as JL says, he never meant to. Nor did I mean to ignore his, but as my love waned, I certainly did. So, this left us with 2 people who didn't feel at all in-love with each other, and then he fell (hard) for a co-worker...certainly not something he'd intended either, but hey...love tends to rush in to fill a vaccuum. For several months, he had no faith that this recovery thing would work, and my faith was sorta intermittent.<P>The wall of resentment won't fade over night. I think we are still dealing with remnants, but they are now occasional stumbling blocks, not a solid, high wall. Same for the fear that he will revert...as time goes on and you see that he is committed to his new behavior, it will fade.<P>Both of you are going to have bad days for a while. But eventually the lows become less frequent & less low, and the good parts become more and more of the relationship. <P>Hugs--<P>Kathi