Ok, my turn to vent??<P>Things worked out in such a way that my h went with me to my first counselling session (the flooding down here in the sunshine state had a lot to with it - I'll tell you about last night if you're interested enough to reply to this vent...)<P>Anyway, it was very positive - great counsellor and I think my h will go for individual counselling.<P>So why do I want to scream???When he's there, I cannot relax and be myself. I want someone to hear me for a change!!!<P>I believe Jennifer Harley got us on the right track working on meeting each other's needs, etc. Now, I finally have an h that wants to do his part. Don't know why it took him so long to get there!!! <P>I feel like I'm now dealing with the downside of the Harley approach. I'm the one who was betrayed here! And I protected him with his fragile ego from my anger and did my best to make him feel loved, etc. I must have done a good job since now he's afraid of losing me.<P>But what about me? Jennifer didn't tell me what to do with the anger, the hurt, the total loss of trust. I think I could give our marriage a 9 right now on a scale of 1 to 10, but myself, my emotional health I can only give a 2.<P>After all the resistance he's had to my going for counselling (finally admitted he was threatened by me getting strong and well), he shows up with me today and tells the Doc something about how he's there to support me. I said, no, he's here because his car is flooded and I'm his ride. (We gotta get some things straight, right?)<P>I know I'm rambling more than usual, but I am just so frustrated.<P>I feel like you here at MB are the only ones who hear me, who validate my feelings! I am so tired of being told to just "decide to get over it". I'm not the one that went and cheated on the marriage for two years with two different women!<P>

Of course you want your feelings to be paid attention to. They're every bit as valid as your H's feelings. Why did your H go into the seesion with you instead of waiting in the waiting room? That way it would have been YOUR counseling session, which is what you had planned and were looking forward to. Next time go alone. Or at least keep him out in the waiting room where he belongs. <P>Good for you for speaking up about the real reason why he was there.

Schizzo-<BR>Was it individual counseling or couples? I'm a veteran at the individual stuff. I found a great shrink first time out. Got very lucky! He helped a lot. When I left my first H, I was having panic attacks, afraid to leave the house, couldn't sleep. That's when I started smoking. (Nicotine eased the panic attacks, whiskey helped me sleep.) Nothing like self medicating from the local party store!<BR>Anyway, the shrink helped me deal with all the old issues with my family of origin. I went to a support group for adult survivors of child abuse, too. I gained a lot of strength and self-confidence in that time. I haven't had a major depression that confined me to bed for over 7 years. <BR>I hope you find the help you are looking for! A good counselor can make the difference between looking for the emergency exit and deciding to continue dealing with life!<BR>Best of Luck! M

OK schizzo,<P>Let loose a big scream for both of us! Ahh, thanks.<P>I know exactly how you feel. We need to stifle anger so we don't LB, but we have to get it out somehow.<P>Like you, nobody asked my permission to change my life forever. Granted, I like the person I'm becoming, but the workload is just a bit heavy, and the timing is terrible.<P>Seems like we do all the propping up, and there is little support coming back...just "get over it", "when you gonna trust me again?" Hello!<P>I'm with you...this is about the only place to vent and whine (my specialty!) and get some empathy.<P>Don't worry, I know that you are on your way to full healing and this is just a quick mental blip. You'll be fine.<P>Bob<p>[This message has been edited by Dynamo (edited October 04, 2000).]

Please go alone next time. You definitely need someplace where you can vent..<P>Do you really think he was there to support you? I wonder since he has admitted that he feels threatened by you getting well. He might want to be there so can somehow "control" the sessions.

Oh Yeah, I know all about the marriage being a 9 (to my happy as a clam H), maybe a 7.5-8 to me (still seeking that intimacy), but my emotional health way way down on the score.<P>I think I used to be certifiable, now I'm just a little nutty <P>Did you ever specifically ask Jennifer this?<P>Anyway, consider yourself validated!!!!

schizzo, ditto what has been said here and what you said about having to "just get over it" or "let it go" which seems to be the phrase I hear from Dr, therapist, concerned persons. I am way down on the scale of emotional well being and H still waffling between doing all he can at work (which includes late hours with OW) and wanting me to be happy. <BR>I am going to watch this thread for some hint on what to do with the anger, because it is very real. It makes me feel guilty, because I don't really feel like being the queen of plan A while I am simmering beneath the surface, and then I am compromising my relationship. <BR>Hang in there and we will all let off steam here. L

Good lord Scizz, where are you? We definitely need to sit down and have a talk...<P>I would have sworn I wrote your post... I'm sure others feel the same way.<P>Do you feel like H always comes out smelling like a rose or something like that? H used to dominate our counseling sessions. It is like he is my voice and I never get to say my piece or he does it for me, so much better, that I don't need to.<P>My H, I believe, is also leary of my gaining strength and independence (he's afraid I'll leave him or do the same to him). I think that is why, if he went to counsel. with me, he would dominate the session in attempts to not get to the core of our problems. It is all so confusing. I know exactly how you feel. <P>You love him, you do all the patch up work and then you look back and think about how and why and what he did to desecrate your marriage and you wonder what in the hell are you doing!!! How do you get on with it and you know it will never quite be the same, hopefully better, but we have no guarantees, do we? We, BS's, have to bury so much, don't you think? I have a funeral every day!!! <P>H said many times in his vascillation and fog days that he wanted to understand WHY he has done what he's done, twice, and didn't want to be back with me until he knew what makes him do this, because he absolutely did not want to hurt me like this ever again, it is all him and has nothing to do with me.<P>I was also feeling like a 2 on that emotional scale... not so good about myself, him, or our future. Was I wrong to have these doubts?... If I tried to express any disappointment in him or any anger, the worst hurt would come if I mentioned anything to my daughter and she would get so upset with me. I have held back so much anger at him. Sometimes I would want to really, really hurt him, beat him up, literally.<P>I also think that he wanted me to get angry, because he felt like he deserved it. I finally did show much anger the night I called OW, after I discovered she had been calling him and he had returned those calls. I went ballistic, he was very glad.<P>I felt very humiliated afterwards b/c it is so out of character for me to behave that way. But, ever since, he has been a totally different person to me. He finally even wrote that no-contact letter to her out of the blue!!!<P>I know where you are in this episodic dilemma, girl!!! You are angry and you need to tell your counselor that, and let her/him give you some tools to overcome this anger. One thing about counseling is you won't come away from there feeling good all the time, sometimes you leave there very pi$$ed off at everything and everybody. That is when you really have to hunker down and think and vent and ask yourself thousands of very serious questions. This is when you go into withdrawal for a while and I think your H should be made aware of what is going to happen to you. <P>Let me know how you're doing. I'll validate you anytime. You have great value and worth, don't forget it !!! Yum, yum beat em up!!! Trust and love???<P>Cathy <P><p>[This message has been edited by Catplay (edited October 04, 2000).]

This is the same problem I'm having and what is making me feel stupid. I have a big problem treating my H with kid gloves and acting as though I'm the one that did something wrong. I think that being willing to work though it with them should be enough for them, and that any a$$-kissing(for lack of a better term)or making up to do should be on their part. I understand that they feel ashamed and that they have a hard time owning up to what they did. I don't deny his feelings, so why should he get to deny mine.<BR>I'm one who doesn't know if I'm strong enough to take the driver's seat in sucking up and spear heading our recovery. My H still denies it even happened and won't even acknowldge my pain, let alone validate it. So I know how you feel and I validate your feelings for you and in a way help validate my own.<BR>I just can't get over.............<BR> FeelingStupid

Yup, I totally understand! We were the ones who were scre*ed around on, betrayed, hurt, etc, and we are the ones (usually) who end up busting our @$$es to repair the relationship. Doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?<P>I expressed my emotional frustration with Jennifer the last time I talked with her two weeks ago. Basically what she said is that it's normal to be upset and frustrated - these MB principles go against our instincts. It's a growing process - sure, we can get mad, but will it get us what we want? No. She suggested that I channel my energy into other things (ie, and this has worked - keeping a pack of gum on me at all times. When I start to feel angry or upset, pull out a stick and start chewing until I can leave the room and read a book or something. You can play with it, but that's something that she suggested that helped me get away from my anger.)<P>Spending time together helps a lot also. The pain will still be there for a while, because you're still in recovery. But the more new, good memories you and your H create, the more the old, painful ones will start to fade.<P>Good luck, I hope this has helped.

VALIDATED! VALIDATED! VALIDATED!<P> <P>L

More than validated! I agree totally with what you and Carolina Belle said. Our H's get to go and have the time of their life, and when it's over, we get to pick up the pieces of our marriage and try to make things better. There is nothing that makes me more angry than my H saying to me, "but you haven't changed". Well, sorry, but you're the one who messed around on me, babe--how about you change and get rid of OW once and for all!!

go ahead and scream it helps I have been in your shoes and it is very difficult to get an answer from anyone what to do with all the pain and disappointments of the past i still am struggling with it everyday . <P>my marriage is over after eight months of counceling when i realized the only way forme to get past it was to end it for me it was the only way . <P>i am sure to deal with certain things in my future relationships but i am in individual counceling for myself so i don't make the same mistakes H is also seeking councel for his problems that i believe stem from his past . after all if you don't look at why you made the mistake you are destined to repeat them.<P> hang in there and think of what you have good in your life everyday and be greatful for it will keep you going.<P>Every day counts <P>Every day is an opportunity to make your life the way you want it to be. Anything is possible when you work toward it, one day at a time. Skip a day, and you lose momentum. Try to do it all at once, and you burn out.<P>Steadily, consistently work, making every day count, and you will reach your goals. Today is a chance to grow -- to do a little bit more than you did yesterday, a little bit better, a little bit more effectively. Anyone can do a little more, learn a little more, and grow a little more each day. Soon, with consistent effort, those "little bits" add up to major accomplishments.<P>Is there something you want to change? Today is the day to start changing it. Do you want the happiness you deserve ? Today is the day to start making it happen. Do you need to lose weight? Today is the day to start doing it. Not next Monday or next month -- today. You deserve to reach your goals as soon as possible. Control today and you control your life. <P>peace love and happiness <BR>IMBC<BR>

TS - in his defense he first invited himself to go last night (since I was going to be his ride). Then realized this morning that it should be up to me. I thought it would be good for him to also meet the Doc and get his opinion before I start spilling my guts.<P>I make it so easy for him to be controlling since I've had no voice around here for so long, I have only recently learned to start standing up for myself.<P>Mourning - I went for individual, but the upside is that I think h will get some individual too. He has no idea how bad he needs it!<P>Dynamo - here's one for you AAAAARRRRRGGGHHHH<P>No, I don't think it's a blip. I think I'm finally getting on the right road here.<P>TMD - Doc made both appts. alone and together. So that's ok. It's two weeks away, though.<P>FHL - Hi buddy. Sorry to hear you're down on the emotional healthometer too. Wanna know what Jennifer said? Carolina Belle spells it out real well. It's more what she doesn't tell you. I'm telling you, it's not just fading.<P>I guess what it did do is to restore the in-loveness feelings which are holding us while I now begin my own journey.<P>LAD - I think the only thing to do with the anger is find a safe way to let it out. I asked the Doc if he had a punching bag, he says they use a bat. Now, I just need a lifesized dummy (pun intended).<P>Catplay - I hear you, it sounds so hard. Again, in my h's defense, he didn't take over the meeting like he used to. He was pretty quiet. I just didn't feel free to talk, but it is good for me to learn since I'm so bad about saying what I want.<P>FeelingStupid - Sounds like the pain is still very fresh. Don't get me wrong, I'm still very glad I did plan A and am at this point. It is not about kissing [censored]. You treat the way you should have been, based on his needs, no more, no less. I really din't make many changes. But it was good for ME that I got to know him again, past my anger.<P>Carolina Belle - you explained her position very well! I totally agree. It is after it has all WORKED very well, I've found the old ones don't exactly fade. I was also willing to attempt to give total domestic support (he only has to go to work, no chores, no kid responsibilities) FOR AWHILE. Now, I'm questioning some of the inequities.<P>It has been almost a year since he broke contact and yet I have done most of the work. For me the goal has been a full partnership period.<P>Leilana - back at you <P>hurtinginil - I thought he did get rid of her. Did I miss something?<P>I made changes that I believed in, none "just for him".<P>Imustbecrazy - I loved what you said about every day, and a little each day. In the end we have to do what we think is the right thing. There are not too many roadsigns on this one.<P>TO ALL - I hope I have not discouraged some of the "newbies". I do not regret the recovery we have had. Because of the love we built up, he is trying as much as he can to now be there for me. For me, this is more of a post marriage recovery, now how about recovering me? I have had multiple traumas in my life and this is the first time I've sought professional help. He asked several times, "and you've never been for any counselling?"<P>And I promised you guys a brief story of last night...<P>I'm posting here when I get a call...h says he may be late, that he has water in the car - splash - (yep, heard it over the phone) that he is sitting in the car with a visiting client. They took their shoes off and were in ankle deep water.<P>When it rains down here in sunny Florida, it pours...He was trying to drive, but I reminded him of our friend last year, ruined his engine by driving in deep water. The water was waste deep in places...<P>So, I pack in the kids and come to the rescue in my SUV, yeah! Left dinner unserved, thought I would be right back! 2 hrs, 15 minutes later, I get to his office after barely avoiding several altercations with furious drivers. We were in three lanes, in deep water, and traffic is not moving anywhere. Got there at 9:15.<P>Had to go to the mall to find his client's wife who had called hours ago and was stranded. It was the one time we were allowed into a nice restaurant with no shoes! Only ones there since it was surrounded by deep water. Yeah, welcome to Miami, you need a boat to drive here! Got home at midnight and started all over today...<P>

HI schizzo,<BR>Validated feelings all around! Hey, I thought you chose the screen name because it is exactly how many of us feel at times.<BR>This is one area that I feel the MB principles really leave a void. A huge black hole that we have to crawl out of once we get our marriages back on track.<BR>In my case the h wants to know why I am suddenly drepressed when all is so wonderful? Hello?!?!?! Is anything in that cranium.......nah, just wishful thinking on my part! <BR>My marriage is great, but I am not. I used to be such a strong, independent person, full of life, love, and passion. There are times lately when I know I am just going thru the motions while I try to get my SELF back and keep the marriage on track. Rats....another juggling act?<BR>ps-we are not floating up this way, but it is a little wet.

I admit am angry a lot. But usually it is when i am alone or venting here, or with a friend(who knows). I let it all hang out.<P>But to my H, I am patient and understanding. BUT I am also honest. i try very hard to tell my H all the things I am feeling good and bad, but in the most non-LB way possible. If I didn't, he would just turn off--built in LB monitor! I do not criticize his behavior or his fence sitting, but I tell him how much it hurts me. He may not confide in me, but I feel it necessary to do it with him.<P>As far as the primary anger, the A, the betrayal, deception, etc--my therapist had me write an anger letter to him. I had to read it to him in therapy!! I even tried to write that as a non-LB! I tried to focus on my emotions--every one I could think of that applied. I never used the word "hate", however. I used ashamed, betrayed, worthless, valuless, embarrassed, like a lier to my friends and family I can't tell, anger, ----get my drift?<P>Now if you don't think you should deliver the letter, it is up to you. But just having written your whole heart out, it helps to exorcise some of the heat. <P>If any new things come up, write it out too.<P>I guess that is why keeping a journal is helpful--I just rant and rave when i need to. Or if I am overcome with fear for the future--or what ever. Mostly I just do that here at MB, though!

cl - I had an incredible conversation with my h. I know he would not be at this point if I had not done so much to bring him here. Now, it is his turn to hear me, support me...<P>I thank you guys for the validation, but the most meaningful validation is to feel like he is really understanding where I'm at, for the first time in our ten month recovery.<P>cl, I think I'm finally working on me, and realized I can't do it alone. So I'm going for counselling for the first time.<P>My h and I have both realized the incredible baggage we each brought into the relationship, industrial size steel trunks. We each need to deal with it.<P>This is what I've been thinking. If I deal with mine, and he doesn't, he'll be the hobbled wheel. The great thing about him going yesterday is that he saw clearly for himself that he needs to sort himself out. Boy, is this going to be expensive. <P>Burnedspouse - I think I will be writing a letter in counselling as well. And I do want to share it, no holds barred. Of course, I have a bunch of other people to write these letters to that I won't share with, but it's time to get it all out.

We have had times we've gone separately to the counselor. We've also split sessions, say I get 20 minutes, we have 20 minutes together, then Guard gets 20 minutes--or any variation. Your counselor has to agree to this of course, but I found it really helpful.<P>Or pre-warning or pre-discussion of things you want to bring up in joint session, "I am angry about ________and want to talk about it with the C." That way Guard isn't blindsided, he has some time to think on that topic and then we have the C to referee, keep us on track, and translate.<P>I chose a male C, thinking my H could talk to him easier than a female. It worked--and sometimes they talk sports! It's ok as an ice-breaker and making my H feel it is safe to speak. I've also learned to interrupt when they've completely veered off to the Nebraska Cornhuskers.<P>Our counselor is great, but we've been going off & on for a year and a half, so there are times, especially as we get better, that it is more like visiting with an acquaintance. <P>Just remember, the counselor works for you. If you aren't getting what you need, tell the C, call later or before the session or drop a note. The counseling is for YOU, and unfortunately at times may need a little management--they aren't mind-readers, even if gifted in knowing how people tick.<P>You can do this Schizzo. <P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."<BR>(Proverbs 15:1).