It's been awhile since I've posted. Been lurking on and off for the last few weeks, but have been steering clear since I did not want to get pulled down again.<P>Separation with my W (the WS) is imminent. I have given up most hope that anything in the marriage can survive what has been going on. <P>My W and I merely share two kids and a roof over our heads -- nothing more, nothing less. We rarely if ever talk. We no longer share anything, including a friendship. And, time has taught me that she has no desire to reconcile -- at least any outward desire. Counseling was a bust, Plan A was a waste, and she continues to hang out with her other sex friends, drink (in my opinion) excessively -- often in front of my kids (10, 13). Could even be that there's a bit of MLC involved.<P>Anyway, I'm at the point where I think I'm going to tell her I want to separate. Those who know me through the MB site know I'm most concerned about my kids. I don't want them to think that I have abandoned them or their mother. Yet, standing pat is not helping the situation at all. Frankly, I'm done and I need out.<P> will probably tell my W my wish to separate, but it will be me that needs to move out. I do not want the kids to move out -- it effects school, location to their friends, etc. I want it to be the least disruptive that I can make it.<P>My work does not allow me to be home to take them to school in the am, pick them up afterward, etc. Often, I work 12-14 hours, and almost one hour away from home. The work is specialized so I cannot just switch jobs or employers. It's what has given my family a certain comfort of living.<P>My questions: <P>Is it wrong for ME to move out? <P>I want both my W and I to talk to the kids together about the separation. Should I/we talk to them together, or one child at a time?<P>What happens if my W doesn't want to talk to them since I'm the one asking to separate? <P>I've been on the site for over a year now, know of Harley's principals, have read the books. My W refuses to read the books, made no sincere effort to make counseling work, and generally has not changed at all. I, of course, have suddenly become a "controlling", "jealous", etc., whose W's group of friends feels is an "anti-social a**hole".<P>Help anyone...!<P>Formerly of "chin up" fame...<P>--keystone

Alcohol is an ugly, ugly thing. It killed my father, and it has nearly destroyed my H, not to mention my marriage. The people that lurk at the bars all of the time are very lonely, and seemingly don't have much to live for. Your W enjoys the bar scene, you obviously don't approve, so she has made friends that will support and encourage her behavior. A bar is basically one big fog - almost everybody in there has a serious problem, but because they've all flocked together, they can convince themselves that there's nothing wrong with THEM, and the people who disapprove are "antisocial @$$holes." My H's barfly friends say the same thing about me, I don't care because my life is not limited to a bottle. I just don't want to see my H reduced to that sad lifestyle, especially when we have a son. Believe me, I understand!<P>The only things that I worry about, keystone are #1 - the fact that you're the one asking to move out. That will automatically put you in a "bad guy" role. Whether or not your W is the type of person to play that card, only you can know for sure. #2 - if your wife actually does have a problem with alcohol, your children do NOT need to be around it. If you move out, they could see it as you're abandoning them to a bad situation (I can only speculate, once again, since I'm not familiar with your entire story.) If your marriage is doomed, and you and your W hardly even like each other anymore, your children don't need to see that, either. <P>I would talk to both your W and kids together. Let your kids decide for themselves who they would be more comfortable living with, and keep a wary eye on the alcohol situation. Constantly reassure your children of your love, and that they can come to you for anything that they need. Make sure that they know that it's not their fault. They'll have a hard time with this, so you'll have to constantly let them know about these things. <P>Keep us posted on how things go. I wish you the best.

All my old friends are climbing out of the woodwork while I'm supposed to be 'MB-free'... <P>Keystone, if I were you, I'd probably take a couple sessions with Steve Harley to help you set up a Plan B separation. A separation without a solid reconciliation plan isn't very effective. But a separation CAN be a terrific motivational tool in a one-sided marriage (although it's the tool of last resort).<P>I'd suggest that you devise your plan with Steve's help, and then execute it. I'd probably line up your place in advance of telling your wife (don't put huge deposits down---try to find something short term that you can transition out of). I think after that, I would have a "Plan B" letter ready. And sit down and give it to her, and then discuss the logistics of the separation doing your best to adhere to the POJA. If your wife won't move out by herself (assuming that you could handle being the custodial parent), you're probably making the right decision to move out.<P>If your job is pretty rigid, then you're going to need to be flexible on the weekends. Try to arrange the schedule that you'd like with your wife in advance of telling the kids (using the POJA again).<P>Then I'd tell the kids together, if your wife wants to be there. Or you can do it separately. I would tell both the children at the same time---it's not like they're never seeing you again. Make sure that you're available to them to answer questions. Have a routine established where you call them at least once a day, and where they can get hold of you anytime.<P>Keystone, when I separated from my family it was the hardest, most frightening thing I ever did. I STRONGLY URGE you to set up a support system, and I'd include counseling with Steve as part of that. He was excellent in helping me work through the logistics of the separation and the emotional after-effects.<P>Good luck. And remember---no matter how prepared you are for this, you won't be prepared enough. This will hit you like a ton of bricks, and it'll be extremely disorienting for you (and the kids). Get a support system in place.

Hey keystone, <P>K gave you excellent advice. Definately be available to those kids at all times no matter what if you don't feel you could handle being the custodial parent. The sad part is if your wife is drinking excessively lately they would be better off with you, if you could possibly work aound your schedule. Planning is the key and you will definately need a support system because it is going to be a tough road.<P>Its been awhile and I know how hard this is going to be for you. I wouldn't doubt that your wife has some idea of how your feeling and what you are about to do. Although maybe with the drinking getting worse she doesn't. <P>I know in my case the planning has started. The weekly money I have been use to is getting less, the pay stubs from the second job I don't see anymore and the laywers card is in the wallet. He also has his little support system from all the ladies in the second job. Its just a matter of time before he decides to just walk out again, but this time he will probably be ready. I know now that whatever it is he is going through is not going to change. He has to want to do that for himself.<P>I believe you said it was your daughter that was older? She will need you now more then ever in her life being a teen. With my daughters not having their father in their life(even though hes living here) it has done a lot of damage in which I am now trying to repair. Counseling is doing wonders for my oldest who is now 15 and I am thinking of putting the other one in soon. But you should hear the way these two talk about males in general even in front of him and this is something else I'm trying to correct. My advice is to also seek counseling for the kids they need someone other then you and your wife to talk, just to be able to open up about what they are feeling otherwise it might just become a tug of war between parents for them. <P>Its going to be a tough road and I wish you the best as always. We have grown and learned from these experiences. <P>Now that I have said my 2 cents worth back to lurking for me. By the way I posted to you last week to update you on the cyst issue, I could use a prayer right about now from my old friend keystone. I think its on the second page or so, if I find it I'll move it up for you.<P>falsely accused

One thing seems to be common in the advice -- talk to the kids together as parents (if possible), and talk to the two kids at the same time. That would be my intention, but it's also nice to see it reinforced.<P>I'm going to look back into Plan B, but the one thing that I cannot do it cut off all contact. I am the parent of two wonderful kids. if I cut off all contact, it will really come off as though I have abandoned them.<P>Whereas I don't think my W would outwardly state it as such, the implications would be hard to miss. I also fear what her "friends" would say about it when my kids are around them (Three are parents of D's friends, two are coaches/former coaches).<P>Carolina Belle--<P>Yes, there's no reason for my kids to see that we no longer even like one another anymore. I cannot say that I have any hope that in the marriage anymore, and there seems almost no point in continuing with the status quo. <P>K --<P>Again, I'll look back into the Plan B material, but I don't think it's for me. Again, the abandonment impression would only be heightened. I cannot/would not tell my kids the circumstances leading to the separation, so the only idea they would have is that their father walked out.<P>Falsely Accused --<P>First, it's good to hear from you. I haven't been lurking regularly, but I was looking for you. I didn't see anything, but hearing now is good. I'll respond on the "keystone lurking?" thread re:cyst, etc.<P>A funny thing has happened since we last talked. It's the realization that I don't ned her anymore in my life. Sad, but true. I believe I can move on, but I'm not convinced that she can do the same on her end. <P>I used to use the analogy of the train leaving the station. Well, this train has left. I'm only stopping for my children. And, they are the ones that I cannot live without.<P>My D is at that critical age of 13. Peer pressure, etc. are in full swing. I am trying to be available, accessable, etc., without seeming overbearing or over demanding. I know the time is here where she will want to push me away. Hopefully I can weather it.<P>My son will be totally heartbroken. He's his "mother's boy", but we have grown very close the last year or so as he's gotten older and matured. He'll need his sister's support and I hope it will be there when she'll have battles to wage on her own.<P>--keystone

keystone,<P>I really think you should spend the $$ for a session or two with Steve. Plan B is about cutting off contact with your wife, not your kids. You want to let her have a clear impression of what divorce will be like. I know that you're thinking she'll probably LOVE it, but I wouldn't be so sure.<P>The only need that I would advise you to continue meeting is a financial one---although if your wife is working, you may want to cut back on what you're willing to provide. If you look at your income and what child support is customary in your state, and then look at the bills (mortgage, etc)---if you think your wife can make it on her income with the child support, that's what I'd offer.<P>I'd like to see you get to Plan B pretty quickly, keystone---you've stayed in an unfair marriage situation for too long, and there's not much love left for your wife. I'd hate to see this separation trigger something in her that would have her fight for the marriage, only to find that you no longer care...

Point taken, K.<P>W is a hosuewife/stay at home mom. All income is from me. We've never had fights over finances, and she always gets my paychecks and pays the bills. It's something I'll have to think over carefully.<P>--keystone

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

OOOO--<P>Too close to home, too many similarities.<P>On the emotional side, it seems like a lose-lose proposition. I have to do something, yet if I do something, it will likely backfire. If I sit on my hands, the agony will kill me if it doesn't destroy everyone and everything in our home first.<P>On the legal side, I will check into the "abandonment issue". I live in California, and I honestly have not pursued the legals yet. I really haven't given myself that option yet -- remember, "'til death do us part" -- but, I guess I'll have to soon.<P>--keystone

OOOO --<P>A question for you...<P>Have you found that you've turned a total cold shoulder toward your W? <P>I am so exhausted at this point, I know that I no longer even make an effort. It is wrong, I know, but going so long without even as much as a response of any sort, you just hit the end of the line. Why should I put forth the effort only if/when she wants to? It's a marriage and both of us must contribute some effort towards reconciliation.<P>I'm there, the end of the line, and have been for some time now. I think I just want it all done with now.<P>--keystone

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

OOOO --<P>Lots of thoughts to consider. Thanks for your response.<P>I feel things are coming to a head perhaps in the next day or so. My W came to bed last night, crying. I'm not sure why, and she thought I was asleep. But, she woke me up when she came in. I continued to "sleep", and I listened as she tried to pull it together.<P>It's scary to think what time has done. Ordinarily I would have asked what was wrong, tried to comfort her, etc. Sorry, but I cannot say I care about it anymore like I once did. <P>Maybe the gravity of the situation is finally hitting. I honestly can't say that I'm going to respond in a favorable way since I've so empotionally cut my ties.<P>I'll keep you updated.<P>--keystone

Keystone<P>Something to think about, if she's out drinking or drinking at home..do You want to leave your kids in that situation? <P>Maybe if she had to move out and support herself and not have your income and yes she could pay child support..she'd wake up..<BR>but fight to protect those kids, because if<BR>she's drinking..and then bring in OM who drink no telling what could happen to the kids..Protect the kids at all cost there buddy..and be there for your kids..I'm sure they already see it..they aren't stupid..<BR>and yes, they would feel that you abandonded<BR>them..and didn't care enough about them to take them with you..

Keystone,<P>When legal issues come up...<BR>...get good advice!<P>If you need to <B>protect</B> yourself legally (and/or financially)... I usually make the recommendation of finding a <B>good</B> attorney. A good place to start off is at the <A HREF="http://lawyers.martindale.com/marhub/form/by.html" TARGET=_blank>Martindale-Hubbell Lawyer Search</A> site. Do a search within your county... look for only "family law" specialists(>80% in divorce/custody/etc.)... make sure they do a lot of "family law committee work"... if they know the judges all the better... You can normally find a few that will give initial counseling free of charge.<BR><A HREF="http://www.uslaw.com" TARGET=_blank>USLaw.com</A> (an alternative search site)<P> <P>Jim