I have been posting on the emotional needs board......but in a nutshell.....my wife of 12 years told me in August that she doesn't know if she has the right kind of love for me. One symptom of our problem is she is carrying on with another man...in what I feel is an emotional affair. He is a married man...and wife doesn't know about there friendship. However, back in July his wife.....told mine...no more contact. <P>Anyway, we have had a real hard time lately...my wife insists they are just friends, that she cares deeply for him...but has no plans to run off with him. I have coorespondence that says she and he are way to attached in my eys...but she says I took it out of context. Well, I have been doing a lot of love busters...she just keeps throwing jealousy in my face....but does not want to stop the friendship....I warned him once to stay away...but he didn't disappear....I sent him a email saying stop all contact.....but I think it is still going on....It is my feeling that my wife and I have no hopes of solving any problems....including intimacy etc....as long as someone else is in the picture. She says that friendship has nothing to do with us....and I need to accept it and her other friendships......or she is not sure our marriage will last.....Am I being unreasonable?<P>Are emotional affairs just as bad as PA? <P>Would you inform the wife?<p>[This message has been edited by WJK (edited October 12, 2000).]

I would do it. Form an alliance with the OM's wife to save both of your marriages.<BR>Insist on counseling. PLAN A.<P>Post here often.<P>lizpearl

I'm pressed for time but here are the short answers as I see them.<P>No, you are not unreasonable. I spent years wrastling with this very question: do I have the right to be jelouse of a friendship? Yes, you do. It is usually not something you can pin down but you know when her primary emotional support comes from another man. This is extreamly corrosive to a marriage. If you accept it as is I can assure you, the mariage will not last.<P>Emotional affaires are just as bad. The majority of my pain can from the emotional abandonment rather than the physical acts. With very few exceptions, PA will have EA as the basis. Sex is just the consumation of the emotional betrayel.<P>Tell her? Yes. Do not attack her with it. Be as calm as possible. Tell her how you feel. Learn how to be her best friend. Listen to what she says and ask interested questions about what she says (about life in general, not just about her "friend"). If you think you can handle it, ask her how he makes her feel and what you could do to help hre feel that way with you.<P>I may not be the best person to give advice because I blew it in this stage of the game. I shutdown and went into depression and withdrawl which only made matters worse.<P>Good luck and God bless<P>Joe

Thanks......She knows a lot how I feel....and we have discussed it...but she feels I need to just accept it..that she has changed. She said they have a lot in common........like child rearing etc......but I know for a fact....there is more to it.....When I bring it up.....I am jealous and taking it out of context. We are in counseling..though it all focuses on me...because the therapist says my wife is unwilling to change....and I am more receptive to it....I am about at the end of my rope....My whole marriage I have been the ultimate of Plan A......always put her first etc etc.....she didn't have friends etc.....now she has and oops now I do not fit in her long time plans unless I accept her and all her actions.<P>If it were not for our three boys.....I would have said take your freedom......but at this point I am struggling with keep it together for them.

And what of yourself? Do you have friends outside the marriage that you talk to? Women at work? Men at work that you go out and do things with? People with whom you have stopped off for drinks after work? go fishing with? <P>Does she work outside the home? Or was she a homemaker for many years? Have you looked at things you may have done to make her feel she can't talk to you, so she looks to someone else to talk to? and have you really listened to what she's said, Or only hear what you want to hear and block out the rest?<P>I'm not saying that you have done this or that you are..but it's something to look at<BR>within yourself..

WJK<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Am I being unreasonable?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Absolutely NOT!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Are emotional affairs just as bad as PA?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes - sometimes worse because the betraying spouse doesn't believe it's an affair as long as intercourse hasn't happened. Emotional affairs can drag on for years. Bottom line is this - if your wife has a friend that you believe is interferring with your marriage and she isn't willing to give up that friendship; it's an affair. Of course this goes for you too. <P>If my wife felt a friend of mine was interferring with our marriage and she asked me to end the friendship - I wouldn't hesitate. After all, my commitment is to my wife - not a person who is "just a friend". <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Would you inform the wife?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I would. It's best to get everything out in the open. Secrecy is what kills a marriage. <P>I know how you feel. My wife has been in the same boat for over two years now. This "just a friend" crap has nearly ended our marriage. If it weren't for our kids, I would have let her go too. I have been plan Aing for some time now, and things have gotten better, but deep down I know she doesn't have passion for me anymore. My wife's OM is slowly fading away (he's ending this). As he fades, I can see her pine away thinking "if only I had married him....". <P>Soryy, got off track a bit. <P>Hang in there, and do what you think is right. Marriage is open communication betwen two people. opposite sex friends ALWAYS spell disaster. <P>out of the ashes<P>

WJK,<P>Sounds like what I have gone through. Same thing....<P>I was accused of taking things out of context, got the "let us be friends", all of the cliched things we read about here.<P>I talked to OM (was once a friend) and was told it was off, but it continued anyway (part of his thrill was secrecy and deception). I finally told his W and created some heat for him. Poor guy couldn't handle someone tampering with his marriage...he went nuts and confronted me twice telling me I hurt someone innocent. Hello!<P>Of course through most of this I didn't know about MB, and I LB'd my way into a very tough place. It did get better once I started to Plan A, and finally my W started to come out of her fog.<P>From what I have read here, there seems to be about a 6 to 8 month average with these after discovery. <P>I am pleased I kept the pressure on in that I did not let them go and have freedom to just do what they wanted. I figured that it was a fight and I was not going to roll over without making the A hard to have. Keep exposing it. <P>Even though I did tell me W through the entire time I loved her, I believe that my LBing prolonged things dramatically, so I would not do that again.<P>If you can ally yourself with the OM's W and together put a huge light on the A. Secrecy keeps them alive longer.<P>Bob<p>[This message has been edited by Dynamo (edited October 12, 2000).]

I don't have much to add that the others haven't already said.<P>Your scenario is very common, so you are not alone here. Most of what you say, I've heard from mine too. She's changed, that makes us incompatible, she has new friends that are mostly single and go out all the time, then there is the OM. Of course they are just friends. They all say that.<P>Definitely do Plan A, and stop the LBs, even though it is hard. And although some would disagree, talking to the OMs wife isn't such as bad idea. My wife's OM is single, so I don't have anyone to do that with.<P>Hang in there.

Dear WJK,<BR>Is there a club for people who have been married 12 years and decide that they have no passion for their spouse anymore, and "just happen" to have a Best Friend of the opposite sex? I think there should be. Last July, same speech. My H's EA has gone on for 4-5 years, she's married, "loves her H" and they have 3 kids. <P>I have LB'd big time, shrieked, acted horribly, said nasty vicious things to him. (Not good, I know. It gave him ammunition toward the "You never cared about me" mantra.)<P>EA's are more damaging in my opinion than the PA's because the two EA'ers draw strength from each other, and in my H's OW's case, from her dumb and naive spouse, who saw no harm in the relationship. <P>Yeah, I agree with one of the other folks here contact the wife of the OM, especially if she's not been happy about the EA in the past. Enlist her aid. You can help each other.<P>So, what is it about the 12th year of marriage? I used to hear about the "7 year itch". <P>I consider EA's worse than PA's because the primary emotional nourishment comes from the outsider, and it erodes your one-on-one relationship.<P>More later. Time to put the pork chops on.<P><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

Dear WJK<P>It is always better to stop the relationship then the futile attempt to turn back the clock later. But the delicate matter is how to go about that as counselling and OMW's calling didn't help. Did your counsellor give you some idea about the underlying issues within your W or the marriage that make her so insistent on continuing a friendship that is causing a lot of grieve to the spouses?<P>I remembered that when I got married, my H insisted that I gave up male friends and I did except for two non-hetero designer friends because I figured that they will never threaten our marriage. Unfortunately I had to ditch those friends as well because my H felt that I would be emotionally dependent on them in some ways and he thought he could provide the emotional support as well. I regretted that now because of WS 's infidelity but then that is another story...<P>I believe your wife is searching for validation of her self identity as a woman and an attractive one, unfortunately she is doing this through another man's eyes. I believe she thought it was harmless in the beginning but now she is totally lost and is questioning her role in life. I think she needs to 'fall in love with you all over again' and she needs you to 'fall in love all over her' as well. I think she has hit a plateau in the marriage and some spouses begin to question whether they should live for ME now. Suddenly, life is about GOOD FEELINGS and they need them like drugs.<P>It could even be hormonal in some cases. I hope you find the answer and pray that your wife and the OM come to their senses. <P>God Bless You<BR>weep<P>

Thanks Everyone for your words of wisdom....the struggle continues.<BR>ThornedRose: I do have friends outside the marriage.....but rarely go out with them...never been one to stop off after work etc.<P>She is going to school...almost finished with her teaching degree....but for years before that was a stay at home mom....her life revolved around me and the kids....and now says she wants her own identity and life outside of us.....she even recently changed her name back to her maiden name. <P>As far as listening to her.....I always thought i did......but maybe not good enough.<P>out of the AShes: Sorry to hear of your plight. I always told my wife I felt that men and woman could not be friends without problems...she said I was wrong....but it has certainly caused us problems.<P>I feel the same way...If I had a freind that was causing her pain.....I would drop them like a bad cold.<P>Did your wife meet him often? My wife feels she should be able to go out with him just as if it were a girlfriend.....but the problem is I seen coorespondence that basically spells out her involvement is very deep. How do I erase that from my mind and go on....she tells me we can never heal if we keep rehashing the same thing.<P>Dynamo: My wife says its not fair to her to make her get rid of a friend......and not the OM wife is none of my concern....that it shouldn't matter how they run there life....that she isn't keeping things from me. So do I insist it end.....tell the wife etc.....or just go about Plan Aing.....If I tell the other man's wife....I know **** will hit the fan.....and he has basically threatened to ruin my life(LOL) if I hurt his family.....but he doesn't she his actions as hurtful.........<P>Ricky37: Howe is your marriage now? Do you constantly bring up your problem with the realtionship? Have you given an ultimatem?<P>Bellevue:<BR>I want to tell his wife so bad......but I do not want my actions to cause major resentment from my wife....I guess I will know when the time is right....I told my wife...that we can't work on our marriage as long as this relationship continues.....she feels it doesn't matter...I can't compete with him....My wife and I have bills to pay, chores to do etc.....and he and her can bloom with no baggage. <P>I am beginning to beleive though that I won't be able to go on long without love from her....I used to think I could continue for the sake of the kids.....but I don't know now. <P>Thanks for all your help.....and keep it coming.<P> <P>

Hey, weep, you're onto something, you know that? My own little adventure with H and Dragon Lady took place at -- you guessed it -- the twelve year mark. <P>Interesting.<P>The biggest problem with the "just friends" thing is that it's insidious. The spouse may TRULY BELIEVE that it's "just a friendship" -- right up until the moment when he or she is in a hotel room in his or her skivvies with said "friend".<P>Sometimes a friend is just a friend. I used to have male friends (which my H threw in my face while all this was going on), but I was never secretive, and always tried to include my H in our outings. That H never went is another story. But there did come a time when I got more attached to a "friend" than was appropriate. I recognized it, and broke contact. It wasn't easy, and some people aren't introspective enough to see it until it's too late.<P>I think that EA's like this are just as addictive as PA's, perhaps more so.<P>Keep Plan A-ing; though...it's the only thing that works.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WJK:<BR><B>Dynamo: My wife says its not fair to her to make her get rid of a friend......and not the OM wife is none of my concern....that it shouldn't matter how they run there life....that she isn't keeping things from me. So do I insist it end.....tell the wife etc.....or just go about Plan Aing.....If I tell the other man's wife....I know **** will hit the fan.....and he has basically threatened to ruin my life(LOL) if I hurt his family.....but he doesn't she his actions as hurtful.........<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Boy, this is like living it again. I wonder how common this is...seems like the "friend" line is patented and sold at a discount somewhere!<P>My situation was that we were friends with this couple, so I felt strongly that since the OM's W was my friend, I should inform her of the deception being applied to her marriage. What happened with the information was not my concern....it was their issue beyond that point. I feel strongly that if I was unaware of cheating, I would welcome a friend or anyone else to shine light on the deception.<P>Of course when I told, it really did hit the fan. Not only did the OM confront me (twice!) with the most ridiculous statements, my W was mortified that I did it. It was a big LB. She was very protective of the OM and his family. The whole thing was so surreal.<P>All I could do to get through it was to really Plan A and tell my W my reasons for doing it...not vengence, not a desire to hurt, but out of compassion for a friend. I am not going to lie and say that I didn't feel good when OM got grief. I liked it! But it was not my motivator.<P>Now, his reaction to me actually worked in my favor. The effect of telling his wife was like lighting a backfire on him. It was a distraction that he had to deal with. It was very unpleasant, and took some of the thrill out of the A. So when the heat was on he cracked, and started to show his true character. My W was shocked and appalled at his cruel behavior...I believe that things began to turn in my favor then, although it was so subtle I didn't see it. She also didn't rally right away to my side like I hoped she might when he attacked me. She took the position that I had to accept the consequences of my behavior. Irony!!<P>As for him ruining your life. Fat chance. He can only ruin what you let him ruin. Pretty arrogant statement...that he has so much power he can destroy anything at will. Right! He sounds hugely insecure to me.<P>Your W is not going to change her mind about this right away. If you go with telling, you will be LBing. That is the risk. My experience was not fun, but I would do it again in a minute. It was the right thing for me to do. <P>Through all of this I did continue to express my discomfort with the relationship, and I tried to do my best Plan A...that was the only thing I could depend on. My W is now emerging from her fog....I told the OM's W in late July.<P>Hang in there!<P>Bob<P>

Thanks Bob,<BR>For now...I haven't said a word......My wife and I had a good weekend....no love busting on either side.......but I just wonder when it will start again.......we haven't solved any issues.....she just seems more hopeful that we can solve our differences. I hope she is sincere........but I have to admit at times I wonder whats going on? <P>

WJK,<P>The fact you had a good weekend means a lot. Any positive time together even if you don't solve anything is great.<P>I think the main thought should be building good time together. She is most likely still fogged out, so problem solving is not going to happen. I am going through it too even though the fog is clearing. <P>Don't be too hard on yourself if she is not willing to get to work on your troubles. There will be plenty of time for that. Right now just getting some positive time between you will be a big accomplishment.<P>Bob

WJK,<P>You sould check out my stuff which dates back to last year. I have heard all the same stuff you have for almost two years now. Check out Keystone's stuff also. My wife has been "friends" with a stay at home dad for two years now. Even though we have taped phone conversations and phone records to prove otherwise. <P>I have gone to OM's wife a couple of times and she to me. We try to keep tabs on what is going on the best that we can. I would suggest that you talk to the OM's wife and let her know what is going on. My guess is she is having the same thoughts that you are. <P>A couple of questions;<P>Are you having sex? We have not for over a year and Harley will tell you this is a big read flag?<P>Do you date as a couple? Go out just the two of you? We don't and have not for over a year. This is another red flag<P>

Yes ...we still have Sex..just not as much as we used to........I am not sure if part of it ...is she has recently started Antidepressants (about 6 weeks). But we do....this weekend was more like normal in that department.<P>AS far as going out......we try toi get out once a week.....not much alone....we usually go out with friends. Adddtionally, with the kids schedule....the weekly date has been limited....but we still try to if possible. <P>Just hoping the problems just somehow go away...at this point...though I know that is silly....would like to get thru a least a few weeks without love busting......but still feel uneasy......still holding the trump card(talking t the wife)....however....If I feel like i am being lied to ...I will play it....at this time just trying to beleive in the woman I love....and work on issues that directly pertain to us......outside of this!

WJK,<P>Sounds like you are where I was about Feb of 1999. We still in someways acted like a couple. But you could tell the problems where already there. <P>I wish I could tell you how to get things back on track and where they need to be. I do know that as long as there is another person involved it will be very tough. The counseler that we went to told us that unless my wife stopped talking to her friend, that we can forget about rebuilding and working on the real issues.<P>Sounds like that might be where you are. I wish you the best.<P>Zip

Zip, <BR>Our counselor.....doesn't say that....basically tells me that.....I need to shift my intention off this OM...an realize my wife is the one doing this.....and by focusing on the OM.....and not why my wife chooses to do what she does....I will never be able to live without feeling overwhelmed.