Friends, I seem to have love busted this evening and I really don't know how I started, other than to come home and be quiet!<P>H asked me a bunch of times what was wrong; I was quieter than usual. I didn't lie and say "Nothing," but I was careful to try and phrase things in a non-accusatory way. (I thought I was.) But, in case you haven't heard, I found out my husband cheated on me AGAIN on the Internet with eight new women just last Saturday and, you know, I'm a little down. I'm pretty sure he heard...I'd be surprised if there was anyone in any of the surrounding counties that didn't hear me last Saturday. But I digress.<P>I told him that I was still bumming about finding out about the Internet women last Saturday (that is exactly what I said--none of the sarcasm of the last paragraph). So he asks me a couple more times and I was hardly even around him before the "what's wrong" and when I was he was on the blessed phone. I guess I was supposed to analyze why I was bumming after a long week at the office after a painful weekend with him and be perky and special in the 20 minutes I was home.<P>So then I got frustrated and groused at him for asking and gave him a few more reasons why I could be less than perky. All in all, I can find quite a few...but in reality I wasn't in a particularly bad mood before he started picking at me. Then he says some pretty mopey things so I ask what's wrong and he says my mood was rubbing off on him. So I know I genuinely love busted with the kvetchy things I said then...<P>ALL THIS AND I WAS ONLY HOME FOR 20 MINUTES!!<P>Then he told me to feel free to look at his computer while he was out...which got me to wonder whether he scrubbed it while he was waiting for me...which isn't fair...but not unlike him...but he supposed to be changing...and why was he picking on me if he wasn't up to something; that is his usual modus operandi..........AARRGGHH!<P>So here I am, left to mull it all and figure out how I could have avoided sashaying down Love Bust lane while he and the boy are out.<P>I'm working on this one...<P>Thanks for letting me write it out. If anyone has any sage bits of advice, feel free to share. <P>Thanks. --HBC

Hey HPC:<P>I've seen this behavior in my H at lot...that's why I recognize it...it's guilt...and they want you to get over it...so that they will feel better. I don't know about your H but mine doesn't like for people to be mad at him...he's a people pleaser...so he keeps being jolly and peppering you with questions until he either involves a response (LB big time) or kids you out of your mood. They just can't seem to let you alone...and let you get over it.<P>If they would initiate some kind of discussion on the matter in a calm ressonable manner and get the feeling out in the open, then things would not have to progress to LBing. That's not their style...they want it all to go away without dealing with it...sweep it under the rug.<BR>This doesn't deal with it and is the reason why things have gotten as bad in the marriage as they have (in mine at least).<P>I know this hard, but can you leave and go someplace else until your mood passes...and it usually does if you can talk to yourself a little. You were probably stressed out since you just got back. I know how you feel...it's like a fire building up inside you and begins to consume you and then it erupts and you can't stop anymore. Defusing the situation is the only thing that will help. And that has to start with you.<BR>I know this and it still happens to me quite regularily, but I'm trying to control it because it counter-productive to restoring our relationship. <P>Its not fair, its not right, but LB won't cure anything or make it any better.<P>I try to wait until I can come here and vent.<P>Buffy <P>

Joining the club here. I like your ideas, buffy. They make absolute sense. Last night, when my H was in one of his "what's wrong with you *NOW* for godssake?" moods, I asked to be left alone. But that infuriates him. But it infuriates him if I talk about "it" and share with him, because then I'm blaming him and accusing him of being a "bad" person. So I'm screwed. If I say nothing and he notices that something's wrong, I get it; if I *do* say something, I get it. The only choice I have sometimes is to leave the house all together. I simply cannot have my feelings. I have to hold everything inside.<P>belld

Hey Belle:<P>One thing I forgot to mention that does seems to work a little is sitting down at a pre-arranged time each week and opening a discussion on whatever is bothering each party. Each side is allowed 30 minutes to talk without interruption and then the other side is allowed to talk or respond. <P>Imposing a time limit to the discussion and rules of engagment during same seems to lessen the anxiety these discussion have for WS. You can prepare yourself before hand. And the rest of the time WS doesn't feel like he/she is always waiting for the other shoe to drop and it makes life with them more pleasant. The BS feels like they have a voice, can express what they feel and can be heard.<P>It seems to work, but you have to be prepared to listen without responding with LBing. Take turns with who starts.<P>Couples can go a long time without discussing anything because it's too painful and can evolve negative responses. But if nothing is ever discussed how can it ever be resolved. I found my H was perfectly willing to ignore it all unless I brought it up and usually that led to a LB.<P>Maybe it's worth a try. It's worked for me.<P>Faye<BR>

Buffy,<P>Are these passive-aggresive traits? My H is the same way! Would rather make light of things that talk them out.<P>Many Tears

Seems like people are posting my life again. lol<P>We did that same "What's wrong" this week. I said I'm fine, I just don't want to talk about it right now. Especially seeing as how we're not supposed to talk about it and I am supposed to well past over this already, it's been a whole 4 weeks for Pete's sake.<P>So he just can't leave things alone, has to keep pushing until I finally tell him what the heck do you think I'm upset about, same thing, still mad about you screwing an 18 yo for 4 months. <P>So of course that's his cue to remind me again that this is all my fault anyway, and of course my favorite line, "You're abusing me, I'm not going to talk about this because it's abusive to me, and other people agree!" You know who told him it is abusive to try and discuss things, a friend at work who has been divorced 4 times. Well that's a marriage expert if I've ever heard of one. NOT!!!

Pam - <P>Jinx, 1-2-3, buy me a coke. My H uses the "abuse" line on me too. If I bring the A up or attempt to talk about it, I am accusing him of being a "bad" person, and that is "abuse." His coach on this one? A man he represented in court who was put on probation for physically assaulting his girlfriend. Nice. Real nice. The more I read these posts, the more I realize how cliche my life is, and how similar - if not exact - a WS is when responding to the spouse, post-A. Is there a script somewhere that they sell the WS? There has to be. The similarities are too similar.<P>belld

Hey Everybody:<P>This is one of my H's favorite's lines:<P>"The best defense is a good offense."<P>To take your perfectly reasonable questions about the A and turn them into claims of "abuse" a perfect example of that line.<P>It's a conversation killer...a way to end the conservation quickly so that it doesn't cause undue stress on him. That's why I like the take turns scenerio...he has to be quiet during the time you are talking...and visa versa.<P>Belld...is your H an attorney too. Don't expect to ever be able to manipulate them into a corner with words...they make their living at this...you can't win....not unless they are forced to be quiet. And everything you say they twist and turn around on you.<BR>It maddening. <P>Many Tears, I don't know that much about passive-aggressive traits. I think it's more a defense mechanicism...a way to lessen the stress that confict causes them. To do that he will lie to himself and to me...will say anything to get the conversation to end...even something he knows will hurt...that usually works...but it's a crappy thing to do. Or he makes light of it so it can all be sweep under the rug.<P>Knowing that the discussion will be limited in time and scope is the only thing that I have found that works...but even that has to be very non-threatening in nature.<P>Faye <P> <P> <P><BR>

Thanks all.<P>It's good to know I'm not alone.<P>When H came home on Friday he wanted to talk all about the one non-affair-related item on my list of reasons why I was bummed and to tell me why I shouldn't be bummed about it. <sigh> At least he didn't keep asking me what was wrong!<P>Buffy, I can definitely see that this could be guilt talking. I agree that if he could have one thing it would be that this would all just go away and let him be. May I ask one procedural question about walking away until I calm down? How do I escape without getting into an argument? I mean, I really wasn't in a particularly bad mood all things considering, and was just a little on the quiet side. I would love some ideas on how to convey the concept of "Please just let me simmer down after the work week and I'll be back with you in a half an hour." (That particular phrase has not worked in the past, BTW.) <P>I like the idea of the pre-arranged meeting, too. I tried something like that at another time and got a lot of grief, ranging from "I can't say anything without making you mad," (no, you can't say anything without feeling guilty--big difference) to "Why should we have a discussion about what's wrong? There isn't anything wrong." Again, oi.<P>PamO: "Abuse?" Well, I haven't heard that exact line, but I have heard how if I intend to forgive him I should just do it and get over it. What good is a reality check when the account is overdrawn?<P>Wives of attorneys being talked in circles...again a familiar theme. H is a "reformed" lawyer (no longer practices law). I do have a couple of ways to stop a lawyer-style argument from coming to a head with my H:<BR>1) "So, Mr. Prosecutor, when did you stop beating your wife?" This is brought out when he asks some twisted question for which there is no answer. Think about trying to answer the question: "Uh...I never..." "You never stopped?" (H taught me that one and it stops him in his tracks when I use it back. It comes dangerously close to love busting, but I figure it's heading off a bigger argument.)<BR>2) If all else fails I have been known to stop an argument in motion with an "Objection, Your Honor! The persecution [sic] is badgering the witness!"<P>So I've gotten through the hot wars, it's the cold wars ("What's the matter, baby? You seem so sad." Well, duh. Yeah, I'm sad.) that I'm having trouble with.<P>I'm working on detante here...<P>Many Tears: I don't exactly know what the definition of "passive-agressive" is, but I think this might kind of fit that category. Do you have some resources for dealing with passive-agressive behavior?<P>Again, I'm interested in making the agreed-upon discussion times work. Buffy, how did you get them started with your H?<P>Thanks for all the responses!<P>All the best! --HBC

That's exactly it buffy, can't say anything without feeling guilty. So why in the heck don't they just face the guilt. Don't they understand that if they showed their guilt and remorse we would have proof that they are actually sorry for what they did instead of just sorry that they got caught? <P>And I'm so sick of hearing "What's wrong, honey?" Same thing honey, nothing's changed. You're still not acting remorseful, so I still don't think you are. Not to mention you haven't done the things that I set down as conditions to staying together. I'm not going to forget them, and until you do them we're not moving forward.<P>Mine's not a lawyer, but still another one that it's hard to talk around, a car salesman. And he's so good, that sometimes I actually start buying the bs he's selling.

Hi Everybody:<P>HBC, you know he really doesn't particularily care what's bother you as long as it is not something about him. So if your in a bad mood and he's asks why then you say "Oh, I've just had a bad day at work. I'll get over it in a few minutes. Thank you for being concerned." That takes aways the potential that it's going to be a guilt trip for him and he can relax. <P>After you've gotten yourself under control then you can enjoy the rest of the evening and not let it be ruined by LBing.<P>It takes a little bit of control at first to manage the alternate speaker conversation...I have also experienced the "Anything I tell you turn everything around and use it against me later." "There is no use taking about this." You can arrange your session to discuss just one topic and limit it to that topic. For example, if your still interested in the details of the internet affairs, then you could ask one question like "Why do you think you need to talk online to this women? Is there something that I not giving you that you are getting from them?" Listen to his replies and don't comment at that time. The next session will be an opportunity to explore his replies more fully. You do have to be very non-judgment if you want to acheive anything...if they detect blaming in your questioning, they will shut-down. Go slow and be non-threatening.<P>The reason why I started doing this is because, he would always conplain that he didn't like those "relationship" discussion sessions because they never ended and I was never satisified with his answers.<P>If he is aware that this is the one time during the week you will be discussing these matters and you will try not to bring them up at anyother time unless you cannot help it.<P>H was pretty willing to go along with this when I explained that I didn't think I actually listened to what he was saying during our discussions....and I thought it was inteferring with our progress. Take the blame on yourself and you'll get more cooperation.<P>Pamo, these guilt ridden people are never going to fess up to what they're feeling, even to themselves, so expect to never hear any words from them that sound like an apology. If you ask them why they have never apologized, they will assure you that they have...by being there and trying to make things up to you...by trying to make you happy...buying you things...taking you places...somewhere in there there's suppose to an apology...you just have to find it.<BR>And perhaps you have to accept it for the only apology you are going to ever get.<BR>The most I ever got was "I was crazy" or "I couldn't help myself" or "I didn't mean to hurt you." Oh, he did tell SIL that it was a big mistake....and that's why he did it again, huh.<P>I sometimes feel sorry for my H because he is so out of touch with his emotions...so much that he could fall "in love" with OW, leave his wife and children to be with her, forsake his profession and integrity, and after it all still not realize the enormous <BR>mistake he made and is still making...and how pitiful his efforts to make retribution seem.<P>Well, I getting wordy again so I end this quickly with a prayer that each of your Hs comes to see what he almost lost.<P>Faye<P>

Re., deflecting the guilt. <P>Why? I mean ... why? I don't understand this concept. It is so alien for me to simply push my guilty feelings aside that I cannot possibly understand how anyone could maintain this and do it over a long period of time without having a complete mental breakdown. This is what keeps me from truly understanding what my H is going through, I guess. Because he doesn't like feeling the guilt and the remorse - and so he simply doesn't. It's like he's able to erase every negative emotion surrounding the EMR. Which is a shame; because feeling the pain of "The Lesson" is, to me, the most important part.<P>Why do you suppose it's so difficult for them to even talk about it rationally? I've never screached at my H or threatened him if he didn't give me any answers. I've always been very calm and egalitarian with respect to the way I communicate. But simply bringing it up is a no-no, because then I'm telling him that he's a "bad person" again. Oh ... whatever.<P>Does anyone ever just get tired of this? Ever just want to just walk out and never come back? Sometimes I do ...<P>belld

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

"If he wants to be with you, you can have him; but, you'd better have a pot for him to p*** in, 'cuz YOU darn sure aren't p***ing in MINE!" <P>What exactly did this mean to you Sweatpea?<BR>She can't take what you have? Do you think that's what she wants? If I dreamed about OW it would probably be about setting her on fire...or pushing her off a cliff...or just giving her a big bottle to drink herself to death. Just kidding. Ha...Ha.<P>As to H's wanting to stick their stupid head in the sand until it all goes away...this is not unusual behavior at any time for my H.<P>Ok, H's make a mistake or obviously be in the wrong, what does he do? If you confront him about it, he gets extremely mad that you brought it up. Mistakes on his part are suppose to be overlooked. Just my mistakes are open to minute dissection. Familar to anyone? <P>Extend this to what must be the worse mistake they ever made...and you can see the reluctance and resulting anger when you try to discuss it. Anger has a purpose though...it keeps you from bringing it up as often.<P>Yeah, it's not right, we shouldn't have to manipulate someone into doing what's right, but.........we do....if we ever want it resolved. Otherwise we'll be having to mow around that big lump stuck in the hole forever.<P>Try something and if it doesn't work try something else until something does...just don't keep trying to approach this head on...that will never work.<P>Angels and Prayers ~ Faye<P><BR> <P> <P> <P> <p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited October 17, 2000).]