To HurtButCoping--I posted this under your thread but it showed up here.<P>As I understand it, someone with a narcissistic personality disorder is nigh impossible to cure. There was a WONDERFUL website about psychology or personality disorder's that described it. Wish I could find it. <P>The pattern was something along the lines of severely arrogant, seeing themselves as superior to everyone else, seeing themselves as only deserving of the BEST clothing/vehicles/neighborhood/furniture/a snobbish-type job position, etc. They have VERY few friends because they are unable to "give to others--attention and focus", and they only want to be friends with a select few in superior positions of society or church or the workplace. They have many obsessive/compulsive patterns with regards to themself, their appearance and their world as far more important than anyone elses. They are generally INCAPABLE of learning to be in any way giving or supportive of others long-term. I hope I'm not exaggerating the description. It was desribing an unnatural and excessive sense of self-importance and inability to have successful long-term friendships or relationships with others.<P>I became familiar with this following my past affair. A couple in our church started pursuing us for marriage counseling--the husband that is. In retrospect the wife fit the narcissistic pattern to a TEE. She wanted our attention to the EXCLUSION of everyone else's--wanted to be in our center-stage. She was emotionally abusive beyond description to her husband. She'd lose her temper, slap him, kick him out of the house for several nights and then seduce him to get him to come back home. She was miserable WITH him and miserable WITHOUT him. She'd cuss him out regularly then seek to manipulate him by stopping eating and such. <P>In retrospect, I should have washed my incapable hands of all involvement with them!!! It would have saved us much grief and heartache. Only a HIGHLY TRAINED therapist FAMILIAR with narcissistic patterns would have any remote HOPE of helping such a dire situation. <P>Sadly I became familiar with all of this because her husband "attached" to me for being "kind" (his words) to him and he would spend much time admiring me in our interactions. My own insecurities became my own downfall. He lavished admiration and approval on me and I allowed him to. We ended up having an affair--mostly online.<P>After the fact, I would describe my own past relationship with her as a narcissistic person as; INCREDIBLY draining, like having a 44 year old baby that pitched fits and needed to be constantly consoled, having to constantly assure them of their physical beauty, etc. It was very much like dealing with a very self-absorbed, very DEMANDING and very VERBALLY ABUSIVE child--only in an adult body. I PRAY that the counselor was WRONG in his assessment of your husband!!!<P>Will pray for you,<BR>Robino <P>[This message has been edited by Robino (edited October 19, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Robino (edited October 19, 2000).]

Robino,<P>Your post fascinates me. I looked up narcissistic personality disorder on Yahoo Search. I couldn't believe the things I was reading. Fits my W to a TEE!!!<P>Now I'm no Dr., but Holy Toledo!!<P>The symptoms can vary, but all the sites I saw on diagnosis said you needed 5 of the approximately 10 - 12 symptoms and you could have NPD.<P>Thanks

Catamount,<P>Here's a good medical description.<P>It's at <A HREF="http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe07.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe07.html</A> <P>It's interesting, alright. And seems to be sadly nigh "incurable". I'm an eternal optimist. But I view it as ONLY POSSIBLE with a WELL-TRAINED, counselor who's experienced with narcissistic p.d. It'll turn you every which way but LOOSE, otherwise!!!<P> Robin<p>[This message has been edited by Robino (edited October 19, 2000).]

Gee, what if your WS exhibts 8 of the 9 listed traits? Only thing that was missing was his picture.

Well, Pam,<P>It's sad, isn't it?!? I'm sorry for anyone who really fits the bill. Maybe they've come up with some new eletro-shock therapy for 'em or something. I really don't know much about it. I just know that in 20 years of counseling people in our church I've NEVER seen such a "blocked in way of relating to the world" as with this pattern. I leave it FULLY to the professionals!!! Someone with a narcissistic personality disorder has to first WANT help in order to BE helped. And THAT'S the crux--they rarely if ever see a need for help. To them, their world is supremely fine if every one around them would just "get it together" and do it THEIR way all the time. And anyone who doesn't is the one they see as 'needing help'--never themself. Their "reality" is for the planets to all stay in line, rotating around THEM--their thoughts, desire's whims and moods and anything less is infuriatingly unacceptable. There's a real projection of responsibility that is WAY "out there". They will honestly believe things like, "If you just hadn't made me mad then I'd not have cussed you out in front of God and everyone at the store", or "What do you MEAN you don't think you're supposed to try and make me happy?!? It's YOUR job to make ME feel good--not mine. And if you don't then you must not really LOVE me". They accept no responsibility for thier own emotional state. They forever want you to deny your own feelings, emotions and opinions in preference of theirs. At least that was my very limited experience--one that I realize I am FULLY professionally unqualified to ever repeat. <P>Robin

Robin,<P>My W used to remark about "ALL these people around here driving these fancy cars....I don't know where they get there money..."<P>Guess what she drives.....Mercedes Benz<P><BR>Another one that I still can't figure. She always remarked about this one's marriage and that one's marriage....."those two shouldn't be marrried"......"He's always so jealous about her going out...I don't know why she stays married to him."<P>But never a word about her discontent. She finished these forays by saying "I'm so lucky to have you....I'd be lost without you."<P>I guess they were just words....only words.<P>Jay<P>

Catamount,<P>I'm sorry, just awfully sorry for what you're experiencing. *shaking head*<P>I'm reading a book by Phil McGraw (the psychologist that's on "OPRAH" all the time). It's "Life Strategies". GREAT book!!! It's helping my husband and I IMMENSELY!!! He talks about how "life's NOT always fair but the way we RESPOND to it can make or break us". We're right at the two-year mark of our own recovery process and life is truly SWEET. It's not all "gone" or "fixed" but we're BETTER...and we LIKE each other again. I'm sorry for your hurt. I believe your in a good place here at this forum, though, to make some positive strides in your life. You WILL like life again--YOU WILL!!! With her or without her you will smile again. <P>Blessings,<BR>Robino

I couldn't believe what I was reading! This is my H to a tee.<P>Night before last he asked me the question, "Who is more important me or you?" I thought it was a joke so I said, "you." and he replied, "Right." Mind you I have a very rare illness and we were discussing whether I should go to the doctor or ride around in his car with him during work.<P>I could go on for hours about things he has done to family/friends/co-workers that would amaze you. He wanted to take accounts away from another salesman just because an employee wanted my H to be their salesman. He thought their desire to have him as their salesman over rode the need to be fair and trade accounts with this co-worker. His ability to be a good salesman entitled him to take an account that belonged to another.<P>As his family has no friends, he asked his Sunday school teacher to be a pall bearer for his mother. This man was so busy and stressed at work that it was a struggle for him to leave his place of employment but he did. When this man's father died, my H didn't even bother to go to the funeral and I heard him tell the man a lie as to why he wasn't there. Whew!<P>The morning after my father died, my H called me every name in the book and said he didn't know why he was married to someone as awful as I am. If it had not been for our infant daughter I would have left then.<P>I recently found out that my H has lied about his age, that he played baseball for his university and his grades. This all fits in the puzzle. <P>Last week I went to see my attorney. That night my H asked to know what the attorney said. I was telling him that I told my H about this disease and his recommendation as to how to handle things legally. My H interrupted me and asked, "What does your attorney think of ow?" Duh! I lost it.<BR>He thinks I won't divorce him-has told me often that I'm too chicken to go through with it. Guess what his Christmas present is going to be?<BR>

Be very careful of diagnosing someone else as having NPD. Most WS display extreme NPD while in their "bad brain period". <P>So, be aware of the tendencies during the affair, but normal people will come back to their senses after they end the affair and heal.<P>TNT

Good caution Tnt,<P>I was thinking most of our WS would fit this.<P>On the other hand, I am thinking my h is more like my abusive step-father than I though, even though he would never hurt our daughter.<P>Robino, that's it, they are both narcissistic.<P>I think one reason I'm still dragging some even though our marriage is better is that I have a hard time believing the changes he is making are for real.<P>It's not just the infidelity we are dealing with, but the years of everything being his way, he always thinking he was better than everyone (especially me), that the world really revolves around him. Maybe that's why things deteriorated so much when my son was born. It no longer revolved around just him!<P>But he has been changing in such incredible ways. He actually listens to me and values what I say. He recognizes he is a workaholic and yet values the family for once, even wants to leave his job because of the high travel demands.<P>It's sooo good, but it's very scary. I'm afraid to get "sucked in".

I'd say TrustnTruth is right. Leave diagnoses' to the professionals. I'd also say it's perfectly reasonable to read-up and simply ASK a professional if you've seen this behavior for YEARS PRIOR to any affairs. Any disorder doesn't evolve overnight. There will be evidence of it throughout "history" of knowing the person. And no professional can "diagnose" without meeting your spouse, either. If everything points to ANY type of personality disorder, it can give you a tiny measure of comfort to know that YOU are not "losing YOUR mind".<P>I'd not say to divorce someone because of this if it WERE diagnosed. I'd say to get educated on HOW to "free yourself" of the tendency to "cover for them" like families of alcoholics tend to do. It's the same with loving someone with a personality disorder. You can't "bounce" a 30, 40 or 50 year old with a disorder on your knee forever without it wearing on you. You have to find out how YOU can "disconnect" from feeling responsible for the actions and choices of an adult you love if they suffer from some personality disorder. Hope that makes sense. <P>One last thought. Even someone narcissistic can change--IF they want to and IF they see a NEED to. It's not impossible just improbable...UNTIL they themself desire it. But isn't that true for ANYONE?!? <P>Robino<p>[This message has been edited by Robino (edited October 20, 2000).]

Thanks, Robino, and yes that is true for anyone.<P>I'm not referring even to a diagnosis of this, but just the patterns of behavior. Philosophers write about narcissism long before modern therapy.<P>My pesonal observation is that people who have very grandiose ideas of themselves are not that different from those with very low self-images. Both can often be traced to insecurities and negative childhoods.<P>I think we are both realizing we are living out our parents lives a lot more than we would have thought. He is letting his guard down and letting me see his insecurities for the first time in our marriage.<P>I always thought he was as great as he thought himself and so strong. No, he was actually quite weak. Sad, but he says he wants to change and is treating me very differently. And this has been very noticeable during the last month when I have detached a lot. First, I was so focused on "winning him back".