<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

Hi OOOO,<P>First of all, thank you ever so much for posting to my post. I think you and I are in the depths of all depths right now. The onyl time I felt THIS low is the day my H left me. Now I'm back there again, but I don't know how I'll pull out of this one.<P>I read your post, Hon. I'm so sorry, you're trying so hard. I see in your words that your wife seems to be unbelievably depressed herself. She seems to be using your telling in-laws about the A as justification for treating you badly and being mean to you. I so think she is being hard on herself and feels guilt, but I don't see any remorse in her letter. If she feels the way she says about you two not having a life together, why is she still with you??? <P>If she truly wanted out and the marriage is over, why is she still living with you and talking with you?<P>Please take care of yourslf OOOO, please try and remember that this is not about you or the marriage, it's about her ... she's conflicted, guilty, disappointed and hurt, but she brought it all on herself. She needs to come to that realization and stop blaming you. You need to stop blaming you too. <P>I think she needs you to be strong right now, to guide her to where she can be honest with herslf and take responsibility. What's happened is not unforgivable or reversable, we all know that here on MB. But both parties need to see that, then the healing can begin. <P>Does she say she still loves you, OOOO? If she does that's all it takes to start to rebuild ... then the next step is knowing it's safe to be themselves and tell you anything, trusting you will continue to love them and help them. I know you have that in you ... just wish your wife would see it to.<P>I hope I've helped you a little. You're in my prayers today, OOOO.<P>God Bless,<BR>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited October 20, 2000).]

OOOO,<P>I'm sorry for the hurt you are feeling from this recent event. But, I think your wife is really beating herself up bad right now and cannot seem to forgive herself. But, it doesn't mean that she'll never forgive herself. That will take time. <P>Write her a love letter in which you express your love for her and that you understand why she feels the way she does. Then give her the emotional space she seems to need at this time. Go easy on the Plan A, it seems to make her feel worse about herself as she feels she is undeserving. She has said that she does not feel worthy of your love. If she's not already, now would be a good time for her to work with a counselor. <P>The resentment she feels is something she will have to work on. She must find a way to forgive you, and she can only do that in her own time and in her own way. Show her, tell her you are sorry and explain why you did. It may not make a difference now to her, but one day she will understand your side of it. <BR>She also needs to work on believing that she is worthy of being loved and being forgiven. Understand that she won't let you do that until she does it for herself. My H is in the same place! What else can I tell you except that like everything else, it's a difficult time for them.<P>Hope this helps. Blessings, MT

OOOO,<P>Have you considered slipping some anti-D's into her orange juice, milk, or whatever it is that she drinks. I am only half joking here.<P>It seems to me this is the time for silent strength. She needs you but she cannot stand to be around you. The guilt and all. <P>I suppose you could offer to trade her. Your forgiveness of her behavior, for her forgivenss of telling her parents. A lopsided trade, but one that could work out.<P>I really don't know what to tell you but the old T&P (time and patience) and of course those anti-D's in the afternoon tea. <P>Hang in there and<P>God Bless You and Your Family,<P>JL

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

I know you are experiencing such pain now. I just want you to know that in my opinion, what I see in your wife is someone that is tremendously down and feeling guilty.<P>Her resentment can go away, and I think right now is when you face one of your biggest challenges....to be there for her, be strong, suppress your negative feelings, and let her know that you love her, and you are not giving up. I have LBd very badly, before I found MB, and actually said some very nasty things to her about how I was feeling. My wife is still in the fog, but I got notes yesterday saying the opposite of what she told me the day after I LBd in June. That is what Plan A does.<P>Your wife "acknowledged that I still love her and said something about that I am a very good man and for the rest of her life she probably couldn’t find anyone who would love her like I do".....this is good. I know how awful and hopeless you feel now, because when they say stuff implying "thats it, it is over forever" it is devastating. I heard the same thing after my June LB, "we are not married now", "you are not my husband", "you are worse than [mean ex-boyfriend]", "you don't love me if you can say those things". In my case, I had told her she abandoned the kids, and people didn't respect what she was doing, etc. I know now what an LB that was, but they get over this stuff, provided you keep Plan Aing your heart out. Please try and remember that it takes time, and these single statements like you heard are not the final word. Especially when she can say that she'll not find anyone like you.<P>Hand in there and you will get through this and you'll be fine. You must be doing something right, otherwise she wouldn't have said the nice stuff about you. She is really beating herself up, but that is quite standard, as I've learned as well.<P>Sorry, adding one other thing. She is trying to justify why you should be apart, by saying how awful she is, and coupling that with your revealing the A. They expect us to take the bait and LB some more, but Plan A throws them off. Keep that up. She appears to be so low, given what you describe, that she really needs you to be strong now. I think this is the stage where you have to be your best, because she can't handle it and is in need of help. But don't expect to be rewarded for all the effort. It will take time and more agony. I'm sure you know that anyway. You can do it.<P>Take care.<P>[This message has been edited by Rick37 (edited October 20, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Rick37 (edited October 20, 2000).]

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

Dear OOOO,<P>It took adultery for my H to know God in the truest sense and for me to know that God is REAL. I used to pray a great deal and know that there is a Creator who made the wonderful nature around us and made us as well. But I never heard God's voice or saw His face until my H's adultery because then I lost my human judgement and my mind was so frail that all I could do was surrender all to God. I got down on my knees and pray that Jesus answer my heartfelt needs for....<P>You can pray for hedges of protection in your marriage as well as commiting you wife to God so that God's will be done in her life. You can get a trained marital church counsellor to talk to your wife and coach her to understand that God is forgiving if we are fully repentant. I think that this cycle of blaming herself and then looking for reasons to blame you and to condemn your whole lives to unhappiness will only destroy everything before too long.<P>May God help you and your wife<BR>weep

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

<B>Watch her closely</B>....<P>Not to be an alarmist, she could be considering hurting herself. She sounds very, even dangerously depressed.<P>Stay near her.... without touching her if that's what she said. Call her doctor and talk this over.<P>------------------<BR>~*~*Yesterday~*~*<BR>all my problems seemed so far away~*

OOOO,<P>I agree to watch her closely, just to be safe. The whole thing about not being able to be your wife again because she gave herself to someone else, is something that I personally think will go away. Maybe some former WS can comment, but this statement doesn't surprise me at all. I venture a guess that other WS have felt the same way at times. I think we all want an untarnished marriage, if I may use that term. I look back and think how ours was so pure and normal, up until this year. Now that has all changed. But we have to work with whatever we have, and either go with it, or not go with it. I think time will take care of these feelings your wife has. I also think that you being supportive and loving in whatever ways you can be is very important right now. She is feeling so down on herself, and must need this. I know there are some "loving ways" that may cause more problems than anything else now, so you'll have to judge what you can do. Notes, poems, letters, kind words, whatever you can do and what you think isn't going to cause a problem.<P>As I read the things that your wife is saying, I just can't help but think that these things are often said and felt, from what I've read, and although it may seem like all is lost now, time may help more than you think, with you Plan Aing alongside time.<P>Forgive me for forgetting this, but have you had many conversations about how you understand the marriage getting where it did, and all that stuff, so she knows that you can get over all this with work?<P>Hang in there and keep Plan A going.

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

Dear OnOff,<P>It makes me sad to hear (read?) your pain. My husband went through the same hell because of me. We are not out of the woods, but I _have_ decided to stay, which is extreme progress from his perspective. So here are some of my WS thoughts.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OffOnOnOff:<BR><B> my wife didn’t seem to feel remorse of what she has done. . . . The main reason that she is still living and talking with me is because of the kids.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This was/is me too. I was so unhappy in the marriage and so thrilled in the A, that I didn't feel remorse over what I had done. I _did_ feel very sorry that it caused my husband such horrible pain, although I think it was the prospect of losing me even more than the A that was so horrible for him. <P>He threatened a custody battle if I left. This did nothing to make me want to stay. I became calculating about the time I spent with the kids in order to make sure I would be obviously enough a primary parent (we both work and are both involved with the kids). If not for the custody threat, I would not have stayed in the house.<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> <B> whether she still loves me or not that it is hard to say. I know for sure that she is not “in love” with me any more. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'd have to say this is probably still true of me too. I like my H as a friend; we're getting along well as housemates, but there is still no spark. I don't know how long it will take, and I don't know if it will ever be there. I hope so. I feel very sorry for myself when I think I may have decided to live the rest of my life without that spark.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I think all she wants right now is for me to leave her alone for a while . . . I think that she needs that space, but it just makes me feel so distant from her. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's gotta be hard for you, but the best thing you can do is be there without expecting anything and try to avoid making overtures. I absolutely did not want to be touched, at all. It made me gag when he said things like, "the movie was good, but it would have been better with [me]" or anything else showing his interest. I was so certain there would be no "us," that it just made me sick to see his delusion. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>[b]I believe my wife has been trying to forgive me many many times, but she failed. It almost seems to me that her wound was too deep and it may take months if it isn’t years to heal. /B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm sorry I haven't been following your situation, so I'm not sure what her hurt was. Our unexpressed and barely expressed anger went back to the early days of our marriage. We finally did get to the point where he could accept me and not blame me for our difficulties, and it became clear to me that he really was sorry about _my_ pain and not just his (looking back to before the A, which was much more of a result than a cause).<P>It would sure help if you could be in counseling together, whether she is planning to stay with you or not. It sounds like either way, you hurt each other and a good couples counselor couldn't hurt.<P>Ironically, one of the things that helped me not feel threatened by my H's affection, was that he started talking and acting as if he believed he were going to be on his own, as if he had accepted the inevitability of our splitting. That made it possible to let him back in my life as a friend.<P>It really seems backward, but if she's like me, the best thing you can do is let her be and try not to be angry. It sounds like you do recognize _her_ pain. I hope she will be able to recognize that.<P>Cottonwood<P>

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Just remember that we only live once. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>That was part of the motivation for wanting out! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>About touching, what exactly is it that makes you feel this way? Is it you or your H? This is the part that I don t quit get it. Is it because of the resentment or the in-love , or your H s behavior?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>I'm not really sure. I think that for a long time all of the physical contact was pretty much a duty for me (which doesn't mean I couldn't respond). When I finally accepted that as part of pulling away, it was a huge relief to stop pretending. I'm starting to come around a bit (we actually hugged the other day), but I just can't pretend any more. I think that must be it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I wish I could convince my W to go to counselor with me, but so far she s refused to do so. It became a big LB to even suggest that. This is the part where I still don t know what to do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>This part's a bit of a puzzle for me. She's staying in the marriage for the kids, right? She sounds miserable. Has she ever been to a therapist? It provides a safe place to air grievances. She would end up feeling better. I was willing to keep going because my H was having such a hard time dealing with the whole thing. But our motivations were completely at odds for a while. I wanted to get to where we could negotiate the custody issue. He wanted to work through the issues so I would stay. <P>We had our lists too. Being in therapy was like unpeeling an onion, since one thing had led to another. The problems went back to before we were married. I didn't realize until therapy how all the problems really stemmed from some fundamental issues that had always been there.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> And this last one about telling her parent the A.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>That's a tough one. I was ready to shoot the person that told my H's mother. (Mine already knew and was thrilled at the possibility that I could actually end up happy.)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I believe that if I leave her alone from now on, she might feel better and recognize my pain. Until then, only time can tell.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah. Unfortunately, I don't think there are really any other choices. :-(<P>Cottonwood<P>

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

I don't know if your Christians or not..but<BR>help her to understand that she doesn't need<BR>to condemn herself..that God doesn't condemn her..He's forgiven her already..<P>There is therefore now no condemnation for<BR>those who are in Christ Jesus..<P>which means..He does not condemn us..and who are we compared to Him?? We can't continue to throw stones at ourselves for past mistakes..<P>Ask her if she'd like you to go out and get some rocks to throw at her..to see if that<BR>would help her feel any better..(thats what they were going to do to in the bible stone her to death) she's just throwing the <BR>stones from the inside is all..

and one more thing..your telling her parents<BR>wasn't really your responsibility to do..that was hers confess..and that has to be a major hurt on her part..that she wasn't given the choice to confess her actions if she felt so compelled to let them know..just as you wouldn't like her to tell your family about things that you do wrong..that would hurt you..

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OffOnOnOff:<BR><B>Cottonwood, you sound exactly like my wife. The question is why can t you be happy with your H? Is it something beyond repair? Is it something that you don t think it ever works out, doesn t matter how much you or your H try?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is the part I just don't know. Before I happened across marriagebuilders, nobody was able to suggest how any sparks could be recreated. People (clergy, friends, relatives) said "Try!" "Keep trying!" "Be absolutely certain you've tried everything!" But what did that mean under the circumstances? No flicker of a flame for my H; absolute wildfire for OM. How would it be possible to _give up_ the positive feelings?<P>So here I am hoping these guys are right. It's a lot easier financially and for the kids if we stay together. And clearly, if one could be passionately in love with one's spouse, that would be great! Worth a shot, I guess, but it did not seem possible at all a few months ago.<P>Why is there no spark? Overdrawn lovebank? What was there to begin with? Strong nesting instinct, a lot of great qualities, intellectual stimulation, delight in mutual approval, but not the kind of physical passion that I felt for OM. Is that a function of being 40+ instead of 26? Does it follow from a really satisfying intellecutal and emotional connection? (seemed to be the case with OM). <BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>If it was the case, does it mean she only used me to father her children? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>My H said that when we were trying to get pregnant he felt like a stud horse.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> I m sure you fell in love with your H before you got married and still loved him for a long time. Did you pretend to love him from the beginning or after you felt that he didn t pay attention to you any more? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>I don't think I realized how hard I was trying to pretend, so I'm not sure when it started -- <B>very</B> early, I think. <P>Who initiated the hugging? Hmmm. Sort of mutual. I'm kind of experimenting. I want it to work. I want it to be good. I sort of feel like the girl in "A Chorus Line" who sings the line about "and I reached right down in the bottom of my heart, and I felt ... nothing." There's gotta be something there. How could I be so close to someone for so long and not feel more?<BR> <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>No, she s never seen any therapist of any kind. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>That could be your biggest challenge. My H had never been to see a therapist either. Just never thought _he_ needed to. I think maybe he worried his family wouldn't respect him. In some of my circles, everyone sees a therapist, but I know there are still some where nobody does, and there may still be some stigma.<BR> <BR><B>Cottonwood, who told your parent?</B> My parents knew what was going on when it was _just_ a PA. I also talked to two girlfriends, one of whom apparently told my H's aunt, who then told my mother-in-law. I still can't quite process that. Why would anyone think it would be helpful to him to have his mother know?<P>Cottonwood<BR>