I really want to know if what I'm feeling is the same as some of you out there. Basically my situation is this. I saw the OW that my H was seeing. She was working with my H as his employee. I didn't feel worried or jealous about this woman when i first met her because i didn't think she was attractive or good looking in any way. (Attractiveness is important to my husband) Now that i know that this is the woman that he was seeing, i find myself wondering why he chose to see someone who was infact so much less attractive than myself if looks really are as important to him as he tells me. He tells me that he did find her attractive but that he thinks that i am more attractive than her. In any case, i find myself trying to find ways in which i am better than her. i.e. I think i'm more attractive than her, I think I speak more eloquently than her, I think I have a better job, I think my life style is better than hers. I've never felt a stronger need to justify my self worth and beauty. It brings me great delight ( sigh, I feel vain for feeling this way) that she is underprivelidged, uneducated except for going to hospitality school and basically somewhat trashy in the way she carrys herself and talks. I don't think i've ever judged someone so deeply and tried to make myself feel good by finding her shortcomings and using those faults to make myself feel superior. Is this a woman thing? Do woman need to feel this way? I guess i just don't see it. Maybe if she was some "HOT BABE" I wouldn't be wondering so much because her beauty would be right there staring at me. I could say to myself "she was down right beautiful and that is what is important to my H and that is one big reason he chose her". But i just can't see what he saw in her and i keep wondering what was so great about her. I realise that when one has an affair that their are other characteristics that are attractive to the cheating spouse. But since my H tells me that Physical attractiveness is so important along with sex, it makes me wonder what was so great about her. He sais that he thought she was attractive but not beautiful, he sais that she had a bubbly personality. I can't help but wonder if my H really thinks I am more attractive than her or if he is just saying this to make me feel better. Personally i do feel superior to her in so many ways but i still feel inadequate. I would like to fulfill those needs that she was fulfilling but is a bubbly personality and being more beautiful all that it is going to take? Do i sound insecure? I feel insecure no matter how many men at work ask me out, no matter how many men stare at me at the mall and no matter how many of my H's friends have made passes at me.. At times I know that i am a very attractive person but other times i feel ugly. Why do i feel the need to know that i am beautiful. Is it because one of my husbands top needs are physical attractiveness? . I wonder if I have a problem of insecurity over my looks or if it is just a result of what has happened to me. Should I seek counsel for this insecurity or will it go away as my husband and I work on our relationship to rebuild our marriage. Who out there has found themselves finding fault in the other woman and who out there has thought "GROSS" she is disgusting to look at what in the hell did he find attractive about her. This issue has been dogging me and I wish it would go away and that i could just get over it. How do i make this go away? Why can't i just accept the fact that he found her attractive and be done with it. There must be something wrong with me. <BR>

Hate to say it but I think it's a 'woman' thing. Society tells women that they have to look a certain way. There's pressure on women regarding their looks & I think pressure on men regarding their bank accounts. That's how men & women value themselves - based on superficial things.<BR>And yes I did the same thing - I met the OW about 9 mos before the affair began - we actually went skiing with her family & I never thought she was attractive either. But when it comes right down to it, it's not what they look like or who they are, it's how they make ours H feel.

I think you are right about society and the pressure on women regarding their looks and the pressure on men regarding their bank accounts. I guess what i want is for my H to tell me that i am better than her in every way possible. The fact that he tells me that he found her attractive without immediately telling me enthusiastically that he finds me more attractive has left me feeling more insecure. This is not to say that he has not told me this, i guess a more heartfelt approach would make me feel great. <P>Another thing which I find sick is that I find myself hoping that my H will catch other men staring at me to prove to him that other men find me attractive. I wish i could stop caring about this issue and get past it. I guess 3 days is not enough time to get over this issue. Time will tell if my attitude changes.

Aandre,<P> Hi, I usually post on another site, but your post struck me. It shows how your perception of a person can change when they are meeting some of your needs. Whle your H is in the fog, this woman is probably beautiful to him. But, when the fog lifts, he may think,"Ugh! What was I thinking about!"<BR>You know, I'm somewhat ecouraged by your letter. My wifes' OM is younger and better looking than I am. When I become an expert at meeting her needs, maybe looks won't matter! Thank you.<P> God bless you,<P>------------------<BR><P>Lynton

I remember in high school, the most "popular" guy was anything but good looking. His personality was so wonderful that it made him handsome. The same thing happened in college. I think what's on the inside comes out and changes our perception. Men initially are superficial and shallow when judging women but when the rubber meets the road, it's what's on the inside that is sustaining. I think God put that into us. Hey, without surgery none of us look good at 60, and yet countless men say at that age they're more in love and absolutely devoted to their "not so attractive anymore" wives. I think comparing yourself to the ow and thinking yourself superior will come back to haunt you. Focus on yourself and your husband. Maybe her humility was attractive to him as well as her personality.

I have to agree that what makes the OP attractive is the way they make the WS feel about themselves. The fog doesn't hurt either, lol.

Hi Aandre:<P>Really I think this has more to do with unmet emotional needs then it does with beauty. Obviously "an attractive spouse" is not one of the needs you are not fulfilling in your relationship. So I think you can rest your concerns about your attractiveness to your H and begin to consider if there are other unmet needs that had not been met that were being met by OW.<P>If you read the information about emotional needs here on MB, you can probably find some areas in which you have failed to supply your H's needs. You didn't say if you and your H are back together, but I am inferring that you are. If you haven't read the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html" TARGET=_blank>MB Concepts </A>about emotional needs or both taken the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4110_emndsq.html" TARGET=_blank> "Emotional Needs Questionaire" </A>that would be a good place to start.<P>I understand where you are coming from because I consider myself attractive, educationed, cultured, and ladylike, along with numerous other attrubutes, but my WS chose a drunken, ugly (really ugly), loud and dirty-mouthed, uncouth OW who's been married 4 times. But she knows how to play him...and that's all that counts to him...right now. But when he's asked why...when I'm obviously the better choice...he says "I don't know, I guess if I were in my right mind...there would be no comparison...you would be the logical choice. But...."<P>So quit worrying about attractiveness...it's not the issue. Find out what his needs are and try to meet them....then he won't care how you look....as long as he feels good.<P>Angels and Prayers ~ Faye <P> <P> <P> <p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited October 21, 2000).]

The OW in our saga, is uneducated, unattractive, suffers from low self esteem and is a speed freak. I'm the opposite. Bottom line, the OW was easy and available and my H took advantage of her. She really believed he would leave his family for her. Didn't happen. The fog lifted, we moved forward and life is better than before! Today , while having lunch, our waitress told us what a nice looking couple we were, and that it was so nice to see people together that actually loved each other! it doesn't have so much to do with how we look, but how comfortable we feel within ourselves, and how we project that to the outside world. The waitress liked our spirit!

Hi Aandre,<P>I believe very strongly that this OW is meeting one or more of your H's emotional needs. Regardless of her looks or lack there of ... she's meeting a need that is important to him. I know he's saying "attractive spouse" is important to him but it's seems that it isn;t his most important need on his list.<P>I would like to suggest, if you haven't already, print up the EN questionare and have him fill it out. This will be your accurate map of his ENs and you can then fill the void that he's seeking outside of your marriage. It's important, Aandre ... very important. In addition to you getting the "right" info from the horses mouth, he will also be flattered that you wnat to know about HIS needs. It, in itself, will make a deposit to his low lovebank. <P>Please read about EN in the SAA book, Hon. Looks aren't everything (I have first hand experience with this) and in most cases just because the book's cover is attractive doesn't mean it's contents are going to satisfy the reader. But you have the power to take this situation and turn it around by meeting your H's EN, ask him, be interested in what he NEEDS, it can't go wrong, Hon.<P>Love and many prayers,<P>Jo<P>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited October 21, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited October 21, 2000).]

,<p>[This message has been edited by Trapped Mom (edited March 20, 2001).]

aandre,<P>I guess it is a woman thing, however, many men get pretty touchy about sex issues. Was the OM better, bigger, stronger, etc. We all have our insecurities. Having said that, let me remind you that having an attractive spouse is only one of your H's needs. Just as having a successful H, may not be your only need. ( I am guessing here )<P>You see attitude and personality really do matter also. I am not getting down on you, but your comparison is not likely to win the day. I realize your self-esteem is very low and you are very vulnerable. However, this is where the Harley book His Needs Her Needs would seem to be very important for you right now. If you haven't read it do so. You will understand both your H and yourself much better.<P>I have told this story before, but perhaps repeating it to you may be useful. When I was in high school my family was in the military as were most of my friends. One day my best friend came over and excitedly told me his old girl friend from another base was coming through with her family on their way to some other state. Now he had waxed poetic about the beauty of this girl, and he had an eye for good looking girls so I knew she would be something special. <P>This girl was simply the most beautiful girl he had ever dated or known. Now, I was very shy but I appreciated a pretty girl as much as anyone, so I was very interested in meeting this girl. So we went over to visit her for a few hours. When she answered the door I was blown away... She was cute put not beautiful. Heck, "I" had dated girls as pretty. <P>I went in with him and listen to them rehash the old days and catch up. She included me in the conversation. But as the hours went by I was struck with an amazing realization. This girl was absolutely "beautiful". When we left, I understood what my friend was talking about. It has been almost 40 years since I say that girl, and I still can see her as plain as day in my mind, she was stunning in her beauty.<P>aandre, beauty is an interesting thing. It is in the eye of the beholder. When it comes to romance and marriages, beauty is much deeper than what is in a mirror. I don't doubt that you are a beautiful woman. Obviously you H thought so to. Probably still does, but aandre there is more.<P>The genius of the Harley approach is to understand and put words to that "there is more". You need to understand that and address it. If you do, I seriously doubt that you will ever have to worry about your H straying again. For you will become like that girl I met all those years ago. You will be the most beautiful woman he has ever met or will ever meet. <P>aandre, don't worry! What she has you can get. The outward beauty cannot really be bought, you have it others don't. But the inner beauty that my friends girl had, you can develop. You can go from beautiful to absolutely breathtaking. Trust me on that.<P>So tighten up that self-esteem. Have a look inside. Examine your needs and his needs and then go "make" yourself stunning.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

I couldn't resist a post to this thread.<BR>The A makes us feel insecure, dirty etc... There is so much confusion that goes along withthe whole circus that I think it is only natural that we look for something that lifts us above all of this; something that makes us feel better. I mean the A is such a huge blow to our self-esteem not matter how much we love ourselves. I knew the OW, never thought twice about her. NEVER in a million years would I have pictured my H attracted to this person. "I am more attractive, better educated, more sophisticated, more cultured" etc.... These are all observations that I made to myself. Nevertheless, he had an A with her. Why? Because she was there. She knew we had problems. She was sympathetic and a good listener. He felt emotionally connected to her. Her worked with her all day everyday. He saw more than he saw me. I didn't meet his needs, she met them. It's as simple as that. <BR>As you progress in your recovery, these things aren't so important anymore. The A conjures up many emotions. Insecurity is one of the myriad. It will pass. Concnetrate on meeting his needs now. <P>cleo

I've read "his needs her needs" and i guess my husband hasn't really specified exactly what needs were being met by the other woman. He's said that she has a bubbly personality, talked a lot and that she was attractive. This is not much for me to go on in trying to figure out the specifics on how she met his needs and how i can also fill this void for him. I just don't have much to go on. And until we go to counseling, this self therapy thing i'm trying just isn't working. I realise that i am focusing on the wrong issues here, I just can't figure why i do or think half the things i do anymore. Talking this out with myself just isn't solving any of my problems anymore.

aandre,<P>Here is the trick. He doesn't know how to articulate his needs either. You kind of guess and try things. Mostly, you listen to him talk. He has given some clues. There is a whole list of needs in that book. Try out somethings that seem different from what you have done in the past. Watch how he responds. NOw you cannot do it just one night, but be consistent and see if there are changes.<P>This is like a giant experiment, but keep your eyes open. Yes, you two should definitely go to therapy, but also listen closely. See if you can see something in what he says that matches the needs list or if stated slightly different would do that.<P>aandre, don't dispare, you have a lot going for you, just need to realize what it is and use it.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Last question, what do you do about the insecurity? Should i keep it inside and secretly fantasise about what makes me better? In the end my husband is back with me, so i know I must at least meet some or a lot of needs that she couldn't. Otherwise, he would be with her right now and i would be looking for a sympathy date. The insecurity is such a big problem right now, that it is interfearing with my marriage. I feel like keeping my head up and not showing him my insecurity. My H told me today that when i voice my insecurities to him, it makes me unatractive in his eyes. How am i supposed to make myself secure? What do i do? Go to the mall and count all of the men that look at me? I'd much rather get affection and love from my husband. <P>What to do in the mean time while this insecurity passes? Questin questions, it seems there are a lot of questions on my mind these days. I'm not the woman i thought i once was. Very strange.

aandre,<P>You are not the woman you once were any longer, and you never will be again. They strip us of all of our self concieved, value and worth. <P>OW was or is meeting your H's emotional needs. Far be it from me why they can't come to us and "talk" about their needs... I guess they are in the dark, at this time, just as much as we.<P>I have seen our OW, but can't remember what she looked like because I was blinded with tears and outrage at that moment in time. I know in my heart, as far as looks, she can't hold a candle to me. I know this sounds narcissistic, but I don't care. I'm 51, been through hell, raised and continue to raise 4 children.<P>You are perfect in every way and don't let the idea that he wanted someone less than you bother you. She is less than you, and he knows it. She is DIFFERENT!!! Plain and simple... she meets some need he didn't know you would be more than willing to meet, had you known it!!! We aren't allowed that option!<P>He'll realize this one day! Hope you'll be there to catch him when he falls!!!<P>Don't worry about your selfworth. You have value and worth and no man can make you feel otherwise. It is your choice how you feel!<BR>You make that decision...<BR>Cathy

This is how I snapped myself out of my years long reign in the insecurity department..<P>Choose some hobbies for yourself. Such as working out, charity, etc. Find something you truly love to do that will take the focus away from feeling insecure and channel it in a different direction. I know the advice is cliche, but try it. I work out now, and feel very good about my accomplishments. I also help out with a local animal shelter, doing something to help others is intensely satisfying. He tells you that your insecurity is unattractive, my H told me the same thing. I remember obsessing over it until I couldn't stand it, but we have to switch gears here. If we are loving and giving within our marriage, what else can we offer? Well, for starters, we need to love ourselves.<P>I felt insecure for many reasons, and like you I either stuffed the feelings (not very well I might add) or voiced them and my husband didn't react like I wanted him to (very unsupportive). <P>I have felt very insecure after my H's affair, and he says repeatedly that I am the most beautiful woman he's ever met, but I'm thinking that doesn't count as much as we might think. The ways in which we express ourselves are much more important. I know that the way the OP made them feel about themselves is more than half of the reason why they became involved in the first place. <BR>Never lose yourself in the process here. I see too many times a betrayed spouse falling over backwards to make their h/w happy, when in reality they're kind of stuck in their own world and wouldn't notice. This doesn't mean not to work on the marriage, but self improvement has a big place in this equation. <p>[This message has been edited by Kayleigh (edited October 21, 2000).]

"My H told me today that when i voice my insecurities to him, it makes me unatractive in his eyes. How am i supposed to make myself secure? ..... I'd much rather get affection and love from my husband."..... <BR>Aandre,<BR>If he is with you, you are in a better position to meet his needs and have let him know yours. It sounds like he has guilt and isn't secure himself. Can he handle you being insecure right now? Maybe he saw the value in you and came back because you are a good person, is telling him you're insecure taking away something he sees in you. Will that make either one of you feel better? <BR>you may not see it as a boost to your ego but he did come back, and if you can fill each other's needs you both benifit. Now he needs you to be strong and understanding.<P>Don't dwell on the past or the future will be gone too.<p>[This message has been edited by Daniel (edited October 22, 2000).]

Dear Aandre,<P>At first, I felt uncomfortable about writing a post because I wasn't sure if I would be able to offer much, although the feelings of low self-esteem and insecurity are very much present in me as a consequence of WS affair. But maybe I could offer viewpoints from my situation to loosen your grip on those destructive and useless feelings.<P>My WS was pissed drunk and set upon by his chinless banshee staff, and he told me that when he wanted out the next day, banshee blackmailed WS and the A was sustained for 2 years before banshee knived him in public and was incarcerated. Banshee also caused the early demised of my beloved father. WS stopped all contact with banshee although banshee wrote insincere (WS said insincere) letters of apology to him and our family members.<P>I have seen banshee and she looks positively evil and ugly, although banshee must know how to manipulate the situation through smooth talk, etc..I really want to know what WS saw in the banshee if he kept saying that 'banshee could not hold a candle to me in every aspect from a million miles away and that he drank from the sewers when he had good water at home.' WS said that it was a moment of weakness when he was vulnerable and in a state of unwished drunkeness with all his defences down. To me, if he can keep having sex with someone he considers 'ugly and horrible piece of evil sh*t' just so that he 'protects me from the knowledge which would hurt me', I really cannot understand. WS had said that I was a golden find and the marriage was golden. Like many of the BS, I am okay - cover girl fashion model, voted one of the best bodies some years, had smashing job, great education, down to earth, funny, kind, caring, creative, sexy, cultured, softie, etc. - all in all a very balanced sort of character. <P>But even as WS said nothing, nothing about the banshee attracted him except that banshee was a good staff and though he had met many beautiful women who wanted sex, he had always managed to avoid, until her schemes.<P>So, there are many reasons why people have affairs:<BR>1. spouse not meeting ENS <BR>2. caught in an unprotected situation when one is vulnerable<BR>3. a jerk with a weak character<BR>4. available scheming OP<BR>5. selfish<P>I tend to feel that in all situations, there has to be 3 and 4 amd 5.<P>In your case, I think 'propinquity' happened. Often, when people worked very closely together, they develop a false 'kindred spirit". At work, you are on your best professional behaviour, full of energy and look your best. Little wonder that workplace affairs are very commonplace. If your H is in a position of authority, you can be sure that there will be some scheming OP who will try their best to be as vivacious as possible. The WS would have little idea that maybe back home they are mousy idle couch potatoes with oily hair, terrified of their vulgar parents, etc..<P>Often, WSs have taken the prize at home for granted. I feel very insecure and my self esteem is totally devastated as a result of WS having sex with someone else, especially if it was a piece of nothing. <P>Aandre, I believe that your WS has guilt issues as well as certain traits that make him prone to 'admire' independent women and women who don't need him. It is like "I don't totally have her, so I find I need to win her. I am not totally in her favour, so I need to work hard, and not take her for granted." Some men prefer this because they are not nurturers. My WS is the type who must 'possess' you and ensure that he knows you are 110% behind him and want him 110%. I was like that but now I have changed. I got my OWN LIFE back and that is one of the best things to come out of the affair. Previously, I was doing everything! and that could be why I didn't notice that he was commiting adultery - he was a good double agent as well.<P>I told WS that everything with a v***** must be open season because he kept saying that she was totally ugly and how he humiliated himself to sleep with her and that he shamed himself beyond belief. Still, I was totally insecure and I wanted to go out there and be SEEN by other men. My self esteem was so low that I thought I must be the most undesirable woman in the world. Although the counsellors kept telling my WS that you have a very beautiful wife, are you aware of that? WS said yes he is and that is why he looked so stupid and felt so foolish.<P>Men have affairs for so many reasons and I don't think that you have to beat yourself over comparing although I am still doing that. Come to think of it, I would never in a million years want to be a chinless banshee with a stunned look who drags her feet and also gapes for added effect who also destroyed a marriage and sent a wonderful old man to an early death, and have a bloated self esteem from taking another woman's husband for whatever length of time.<P>Aandre, your self esteem is destroyed along with your trust in your H. Sometimes, this serves as a wake up call that the man you married is not reliable and responsible. Better now that you are young than when you are older to solve these marital issues at marriage counselling. Now, is the time to take ownership of your life and be the best person you can and to reach the potential God made you capable of.<P>I stopped trying to do all, now I have a live in and nanny and I don't ache for the approval and presence of my WS anymore. I focus on my baby and being as ravishing and joyful as I can be. My life has just begun although I am still a long way from the new starting point. I feel I need to LOVE ME now and LOVE ME first than can I love others. Previously, I loved myself last because I was like a servant to everybody's happiness because I was so secure as a person. Little did I know that there are women out there, especially those who have little good looks, who have honed smooth and sweet talk to a masterpiece and whose sole ambition in life is to get laid by some good looking guy because as my WS said 'the evil thing can only trap a married man to continue sleeping with her'. <P>So go out and do things for yourself - a good haircut, working out and socialising and charity work, ballroom dancing, etc.. BE KIND to yourself. Pray for restoration of self esteem and ask God to make you whole again.<P>God Bless you<BR>weep<P>[This message has been edited by weep (edited October 22, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by weep (edited October 22, 2000).]

From Catplay, "They strip us of all our self-conceived value and worth."<P>So true, I tend to equate it to having our minds and self-esteem "raped". (I apologize to anyone who has ever had to survived an actual rape but if you've also had to deal with infidelity, you'd know what I mean I hope)<P>We all go thru this, aandre. It's a frequently replayed post here.<P>How do you deal with the insecurity?<P>My answer is to be the best "me" I can be.<P>Take all the best comments and praises and compliments anyone has ever given you and replay those "tapes" in your mind instead of that one you are now playing. (You know, "Am I prettier than OW? etc.)<P>Take all those complimented aspects about yourself and polish them up and make them shine. (I'm talking INNER as well as outer aspects!) Make a list if you have to so you can look at it and remind yourself when you slide back into feeling insecure about yourself.<P>STOP putting so much energy into looking at OW's characteristics and give it to YOURSELF. <P>Specifically for me, I just act like I've got the qualities of Miss Amercica: Be friendly, have a good heart, reach out to other people in need, have a talent, speak clearly and thoughtfully, smile alot and look great in a gown and bathing suit!<P>I say that kind of tongue in cheek but for the most part, it turns out to be what I do!<P>But my marriage work comes first. Or maybe that's my "talent" portion?!? <P>Good luck and God bless!<P>L<BR>L<BR><P>------------------<BR><I>No rain, no rainbows</I>