It has been a while since I put forth a topic. I usually just respond(in great depth)to the various threads.<P>Many of you know how much trouble I have been having lately with my H. Emotional trouble on my end. I love him, he doesn't love me--and it is getting harder and harder to live day to day, side by side, knowing SHE is his focus and not me. I was so sure that it would start to fade, but it is stronger than ever. He still has no feelings for me, and no empathy and he freely admits it. Where is his pride and sense of responsibility? Where is his faith?<P>Well, he is going on another trip tonite. She will probably join him on Monday and Tuesday, then he goes elswhere. He still does not know if it will pan out. I am sure he is hoping. I asked him what he was going to do, and he said he did not know. I said of course connect with her if possible. When he nodded--that was it.<P>I have given him so much space, I have not put her down, hardly(he defends her honor, so it does not help my cause.); But I told him that he was just going to la-dee-da and sleep with her when ever he got the chance while I get nothing, no sex and no love, nothing he could just forget it. I felt that if he really could not stop hurting and disrespecting me by sleeping with her(I'll never trust another trip); that he really had to tell his family member about all this, and move in with him! We could never afford a second residence. We cannot even afford this one! <P>I told him I loved him too much to be so disrespected and that daily it was getting harder to live with the empty feeling he sends me. He still never talks, he has her to confide in, and it is not getting any better. I said, waiting to see if she was really going on this trip, or not, was like waiting to find out if you have cancer. It is true. Because if it happens again it is another death sentence of hope and faithful thoughts and a measure of patience too.<P>I said if he found it too muuch of a strain to have two people wanting him as their husband, then he could just move out. I said I will not give up, <B>I</B>am his wife. That I must protecting myself.<P>He keeps sending me these messages that he has decided, but just too afraid to go(Change, and the unknown.) I said he should just go to her state and try it out for a month or so. See what it is really like. I also said in a LB way that if she were to come here, that I would move out of the state that day, but kill her first. If she invades my life when I have shown such decency, patience and goodwill(not just hating her for the slut, selfish b88ch she is) I would just kill her. <P>Have any of you just said blindly, "I will not allow him to have her if I cannot have my WS" ?? Even if you are not sure what that means or entails? I love him right now, but every time I remember she is in the picture and has MY PLACE in his heart, I get jealous, depressed, furious, nauseated and I cannot keep my big mouth shut! I did not LB today, but it was by the skin of my teeth!<P>I gave him a big hug goodbye and snagged a kiss when he wasn't ready. I feel like a girl with a crush on her older brother's friend who is too old for me--stealing kisses and running away giggling.<P>We had a great date last night and I was so happy, but concious of not being able to hold his hand during the concert. So when he drifted off, I held his knee, that was the best I could steal. I am really craving physical touch--can you tell? I wish to God he would offer it freely. At least he is still letting me have all the hugs I need. Sometimes it isn't enough. I am starting not to crave sex any more--I just want honest cuddling that springs from affection. I really miss that...... <P>How did any of you deal with this issue prior to you not being able to prtect your feelings anymore and asking him to leave so you could continue plan A? Did you ignore your true self and let him stay for the sake of the children? I really did not want to do anything before Christmas, for their sake. But I am slipping back into depression even though I am on meds, but I feel better when he is away(on safe trips.)I ignore the 2 minute daily report and pray some day he will have something to talk to me about that means something. One shared feeling or emotion not prompted by me. <P>It is too long in waiting for him to come in off the fence and winter is coming. I do not want to let in the cold any more. I want my cozy fire, with my kids, with no emotional pain. My heart is breaking now, but with practice, I could plan A from afar....but no longer with him sharing my bed. It teases my very soul cruelly, with him near but his heart far away. It is a paradox, not natural to God's world that I live in.....

Dear Burned..,<P>I feel so badly for you tonight. I can commiserate with the emptiness you feel. I too, feel this from time to time and my H is here, alive and well. But not meeting any of my needs.<P>So what's the difference in whether they are here or there? He may as well be with OW, if that's what he needs. I can survive, it is just the uncertainty of it all that is so unbearable.<P>You do have to draw a line in the sand. That will help you stay sane. I am sorry you hurt so bad, truly sorry. I wish I knew more to say to encourage you tonight to stay strong. Justice will prevail! Yes, I too have had evil thoughts about the OW and H. We all have I'm sure.<P>Stay good and strong for you!!! You are valuable and you have great worth.<P>Cathy

burnedspouse,<P>I don't have much to say that will help. My spouse is currently out with the OM, and it makes me sick, but I have to Plan A, otherwise, all will backfire.<P>Xmas makes me think too. Will my WS decide to come back by them? Otherwise, it seems rather sickening that the kids will have to live through an Xmas that is very different.<P>Anyway, please hang in there, and lets get through this together. It isn't easy on any of us, but you are having a hard time today. I think that your experiences are too common. Know that you are not alone. We feel for you. I wish that it could be different, and that you could be feeling something else, but know that we feel for you.<P>Take care and let us know how it going.<BR>

Wow, that's a tough one! For what it's worth, here's my take:<P>It seems that your H has already gotten off the fence, emotionally. From what I read (and I confess I don't know the whole situation), he has already chosen OW, and is just staying with you for reasons of convenience, or habit, or financial comfort.<P>He IS being horribly disrespectful by carrying on the A, now that you know all about it. I'm amazed that people can be so cruel to each other. I'd have trouble believing it, if it weren't happening to me, too!<P>Personally, I would ask him to leave. Not to throw him into the arms of OW, but to protect yourself from further pain. It seems you may have to move to Plan B. <P>Though we're in different situations, here's what I told my W. She's going to see OM this coming week. I told her I would no longer compete with another man for her affections. It was either him or me. I said that my love was for her and her alone. Conversely, I did not want to "share" her love with anyone else. <BR>I have told her from day one that I will gladly take her back and restore our marriage, but that will absolutely not happen while she is in contact with OM. <P>I realize this may clash with some MB principles, and it may not be the right path for you to follow, but there is only so much you can take, girl!<P>One thing made me mad reading your post, when you said he was "defending her honor..."<P>WHAT HONOR? Selfish b**** is consorting with another woman's husband! <P>Hang in there, fellow Zonie. Like the rain we had this weekend, this too, shall pass. The sun will come out sooner or later!<BR>

Thanks catplay for your response. I have not heard from you in a while. The uncertainty is rough, but really hurts more is the daily indifference and rejection. It is not harsh or blatant, which almost makes it worse because you know he really does not care whether you're hurt or not. <P>Rick-I know that my situation is "too common" and it comforts me to know people who know how I feel, but is does not change anything, which is what I really crave. Something radical! Like she drops dead or has a stroke of conscience, or something. I feel like sh*t and the person I love the most could not care less and is the one doing it to me! It feels ironic, like a greek tragedy...<P>Cactus-<BR>I thought your M was in the wringer.Sorry.<P> Yes I am feeling bad today worse than yesterday. He is in Vegas. He hs not called since he got on the plane last night; she is there, I know it. Looks like I am going to have to follow through with my boundry. If I get confirmation, I will ask him to move in with his cousin as soon as he tells him what is going on. I really wanted to hang on, but now that I have set this boundry, I feel a little more at peace and am treasuring my children's last inocent smiles and laughter.<P> It will be changing very soon. Their life will never be the same. I really do not know how to break it to them and convince them that it is not permenent, unless their dad makes it so--but I don't want him to look like the bad guy(ok I know he is, but they should not know this of their father.) I need to tell them in a way that removes me from blame of putting ideas in their heads or preconceived ideas--My parents did this to me after their divorce. I was a weopon between them, my feelings were not considered--I do not want my kids to get the same bum rap even if they have to be divorce kids in the future.<P>But really, that is not in my mind. I just want to stop anticipating daily and being let down daily. His behavior with the OW is all but kept private, but it is the hovering effect of the A which hangs over me, and the uncertainty of what is really going on.(And what they talk about!!)<P>If he is going to do some more soul searching, and share all the findings with her, etc and not with me, he must move to do that on his own. I will try whenever he is ready to try, but I do not need this daily humiliation. I need love, that is all. Until he is ready to give me some, he can live elswhere where my heart does not have to be bruised every day! <P>I will try to remain friends(for now), as we are here at home, so he can still take care of the children when I need him to. ETC...I will even try Thanksgiving together. I really feel, for now, plan A will still work, because plan B is "no contact" with him at all. I need his babysitting duties, and I need him to remain connected with the children so he continues to have doubts about disolving our family. He may not need or love me, but he does them--that is my one Ace in the hole. <P>Pray for me Everybody--this is my boldest step,and biggest gamble YET! I am so scared!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Give me courage, Lord!

Dear burned spouse,<P>You have far more courage and stamina than I possibly could ever hope for. You are right, you really need to take care of yourself.<P>Please pray for hedges of protection around your husband and your marriage so that no lover can get to him and vice versa, Commit your H to God and that God's will be done in him.<P>You can get the book by Stormie Omartian on "The power of a Praying Wife". You can also go down to the Women's bible Study below to ask for help. You just have to leave it to God to work the miracles in your life.<P>I am very sorry for your predicament and I hope you can pray for restoration of your complete self. I will pray for you today.<P>God Loves You<BR>weep

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by burnedspouse:<BR><B>Cactus-<BR>I thought your M was in the wringer.Sorry.<P> Yes I am feeling bad today worse than yesterday. He is in Vegas. He hs not called since he got on the plane last night; she is there, I know it. Looks like I am going to have to follow through with my boundry. If I get confirmation, I will ask him to move in with his cousin as soon as he tells him what is going on. I really wanted to hang on, but now that I have set this boundry, I feel a little more at peace and am treasuring my children's last inocent smiles and laughter.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My M is pretty much over, but there's still a small pocket of air which might allow it to survive.<P>I think we could start a very small club here...call it "AZ BS's Whose S Went to Vegas to Be With the OP, and it Sucks"<P>Or something.<P>I had a long conversation with my W regarding her trip to Vegas. She leaves Wed. She seems to be really confused, and told me that she told OM she wasn't sure if she wanted to see him.<P>I told her that basically, the only way to save the M at this point was for her to do the "no contact" thing with OM. To put it in a nutshell, I told her that the only way for us to work out our differences was if he was out of the picture completely. That way its just between me and her. If we can't work out our problems, then she's free to move ahead with the D, and go running back to him, but I want one more chance to try and save the marriage on my terms...in other words, its the MB way, or the highway!<P>I guess I'll find out soon one way or the other.<P>Can't wait to see you at Allison's in Jan!<BR>

Burned Spouse:<P>I am sorry to read about how awful things are for you. Listen, please, please don't take this the wrong way. I wonder why you, like so many, many others here allow their WS to continue with their affairs and still let them come home to their "faithful" partners....?<P>I was once where you are. I know I contributed majorly to the breakdown of my marriage and I suppose in some respects allowed stbH's affair to happen. As it turned out, he is still with Mia, and even though he supposedly left her to "work" on our marriage, I know differently now. I still hurts to think how utterly betrayed and disgusted I felt during that time.<P>I know this site is for building marriages, but sometimes there will come a moment when you realize you need to build your self esteem and your own life without someone who certainly doesn't respect you any longer.<P><BR>I do wish you nothing but the best. I'm still learning how to be "single" but I know my frame of mind is definately better for it.<P>TL

TL-<P>I know what you mean. There are those at this board that actually have a complete married life with the OW in the picture. I get nothing here. I haven't had for 18m(since it started.) We still occupy the same house to facilitate talking and promote recovery and for hte kids, but that has not panned out. Actuallly everything I have thought would happen has not happened. <P>I really am confused and scared, but I also know that this boundry will be fulfilled. I am at peace with it. Something within me has changed, I can no longer fear his departure because it hurts far worse for him to be at home and reject me daily. He will be moving out to find himself soon. As soon as possible. But I want to stress that I still expect him to fulfill his job as father and take care of the kids as he has promised to do since DDay.(So i could continue to find myself...)<P>It is not plan b until it needs to be. But it is scary to know that my kids life is going to be different from now on, I have to live with that. I put them ahead of myself as I have always done, and I cannot any more. I will not shut out their feelings and questions. Iwill let them know that their feelings matter. They matter and it is not their fault, and maybe Dad will move home again in the future...<P>Cactus J-Yep I don't think I ever want to go to that sinful city ever again!!!! I would look at every corner and think did they come here? Where did they eat? What shows? Nope not for me!! Stupid to go where you KNOW there will be triggers... My best to you> I hope that window opens a little for you.

Hey Beth,<P>Guess you're at the end of the rope, huh? <P>Is it possible to tie a knot in it and hold on a little longer. I don't know, maybe it's better to feel lonely if you really are alone, than to feel lonely with your husband lying next to you. I've been both places, and am still confused about whether I should have tried to make him stay. I'll tell you one thing, it's a lot harder to convince them to come home than it was to let him leave.<P>I wasn't aware of my H's affair when he was living at home. I can't say I have any idea what that kind of pain would be like. To know that when he was packing his bags he would be going to her. I, of course, knew things were terribly wrong with him/us, but would not let myself think about what must have been obvious. Thank you denial!<P>Beth, you sound like you know what you're doing, but, I just want you to consider one thing here...are you prepared to never share your dinner table/bed/holidays/life as you know it...with him again. This must be considered before you take this step. It may be more final than you know. It's been impossible for me to try to convince my H to come home...he has to be 100% sure, does not want to ever put the kids through this again...plus he's having a helluva lot of fun out there in the big bad world.<P>The money part of it is getting ugly here too. Yep, I thought that with his guilt that he'd be oh-so accomodating financially...well Beth, talk about LB's...man I did it tonight. He closed "our" account, so checks that I wrote are bouncing all over the valley, and he is hysterical that I want him to clean up this mess...though I had no idea he was closing the account when I wrote those checks. I told him I'd rather live in a travel trailer than to ever have this conversation with him again tonight. Slap on the handcuffs Dr. Harley, I LB'd and it didn't feel to bad either!<P>Just think hard Beth, about all of this. I know you have pride in yourself, and that is a wonderful thing. I know he's being ridiculous, but I still think he'd be gone if he wanted to be gone hon. Mine wanted to be gone, and there wasn't a thing I could have done to keep him here. Yours is still waffling, are you sure you want to make up his mind for him?<P>Not to put any guilt on you, but this will be tough on your kids too Beth. I took mine to a psychologist last week, and they just wanted to know why...that's all they kept asking. What can I say to them? That dad's a cheat...I can't do that, not yet. I want them to love and respect him, I can't tell them the truth. The phsychologist wants me to tell them, but how can I do that?<P>Darn it, I turned this into a post about me, and I'm ranting again, so sorry Beth. I just want you to see all around this before you decide anything, and to hear from someone who is seperated...it hasn't helped here. I miss him, have not seen his face in three weeks. No, I wouldn't want to live with him right now, but once they're out the door hon, your chances of getting them back seem to get a little scarier.<P>Call me day or night. Anytime. As far as Vegas goes, you and I should go there one of these weekends and paint the damn town red...you too Cactus. I'll help you guys take it back...and Beth, it's a tacky little town, it's not home and your husband knows it, it's a fantasy, like his life right now, just fake fronts, and ugly buildings under the glitter. Not real Beth...not at all.<P>You're the real thing, and I hope he damn well figures it out before it's too late.<P>~allison

Allison-<P>Thanks for the post. Yep, I know I sound at the end of the rope. But I am okay with this. I know that it is not the end. He will not be running to her, because she lives too far away and his business base is here. Plus his kids are too. <P>My therapist agrees that it is what he needs to know I mean what I say. It may backfire as everything else has, but I really don't know. I cannot take these feelings anymore. It is beyond cruel to live in the same house, bed, as the one you love and know that he does not care about you, only his fantasy life. He is not changing his behavior. To allow him to do it with eyes wide open is to disrespect myself. I won't do it any more.<P>It IS PLAN A-do not get me wrong. I think he understands this. I am sure he knows he would not be asked to leave forever, just to find himself, while we remain friends. If possible.<P>I do not have to go through with my boundry this week, though. It turns out the bimbo did not make it to Vegas. He is in tact for now...But I have already told him of this boundry, I have to go through with it when he disrespects me and our marriage again, and it is the right thing to do. For me, I think. I cannot allow myself to fall back into depression--I am on meds already.<P>He and I will talk of it again very soon. I want to be sure he understands my position very clearly. Her or me, the A or working on the marriage. If he feels the need to continue, it does not have to be in my face.<P>I'll call you this weekend. My kids get out on vacation weds for fall break then it's Halloween, But the kids are back in school by Oct 31. That is my schedule, find a day for lunch next week and call me. <P>

Beth,<P>Any day but the 31st is good for me. They're making us dress up and stuff for Halloween, yep, just what I'm in the mood for ,<P>You sound good, strong.<P>Honor your feelings and decisions right now. They're right for you. I'm glad you and your H are communicating so well...that's pretty amazing due to the circumstances.<P>Gotta get ready for work, enjoy our rainy weather...<P>allison

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by az allison:<BR><B>As far as Vegas goes, you and I should go there one of these weekends and paint the damn town red...you too Cactus. I'll help you guys take it back...<P>~allison</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Since I read your reply to Resilient, and the OM's name happens to be Steve... I can just see the conversation with my W:<P>("dream sequence" music, please!)<P>CJ: "Honey, can you watch the dog for a weekend, I'm going to Vegas with some friends."<P>W: "Really, who?"<P>CJ: "Oh, nobody, just some lady who's married to a cheating schmuck named Steve..."<P><BR>W: (Faints and falls on behind)<P> <P><p>[This message has been edited by cjack (edited October 24, 2000).]

Dear Burned...<P>Are you two still having sex together?... I was with my H before and after he moved out (didn't know about her)...and even after D-day, dumb dumb here thought that would bring him back!!!<P>This is kind of off the topic, but he said sex with her was so demanded and unfulfilling for him... I think (now) that I was meeting his emotional need for sex!!! Is that possible? Strange and bizarre isn't it?<P>I truly believe she meet his need for an attractive spouse, not because she is prettier than me, but because she is small framed and weighs less than I do. He is a small man and I am a medium framed, slightly overweight, only a year or two older than the OW.<P>Back to the subject... offering ultimatums is not so bad, I guess the timing has to be right... I did this to my H. We sat in the den one afternoon and I simply told him, very non-agressively, that he needed to make a decision, because I refused to live this way, be his doormat and he was not going to teach our children that this is the way men treat women and it's acceptable., especially our 3 boys...<P>I don't know if it helped him, but shortly after this meeting he seemed to start coming to his senses and trying to get out of the fog.<P>Since, everything has been going uphill...but lately, I have been LB'ing my butt off... is it the season?, it has been a year now since he came back, but not a year since he made no-contact. That would be in Feb. 2001, but since they made contact in July and August 2000, we have to move up the no-contact anniversary... I just keep waiting for all of my emotions to level off... It takes so long, even after they come back.<P>I wish you well and if I had the money and the tenacity I would go to Vegas with you, I have never been!<P>Write back,<P>Cathy

Catplay I seem to be answering you a lot today, Pal!<P>The communication is mostly mine, though he IS listening which is a change. But the sex and a real marriage--No-- not since the A started 18 M ago. No kisses either since dday(11 weeks ago). Yes I am severely Hor**! He sure is missing the boat when it comes to my 30's sexuality boom!

I think you should follow ALL of the Harley principles which say PLan A for a relatively short time and if they don't cut off contact with op then you must resort to Plan B and cut off all contact with them. Unless you have some other way to get op out of the picture, you are right in going to Plan B!

<BR>Hi BS:<P>Having been where you are I know that there comes a time when for your sake you need to draw that "line in the sand." No matter how much you're afraid you have to lose...the most important thing is the thing you'll recover and that's some of your self-respect.<P>In the middle of the A, my H came and went as he pleased, spending the weekend with OW and coming back two or three days later. Well, after one of those weekends, I told him he would not be coming back, not until he was entirely through with OW....and I meant it and still do...and he has asked to come back. But having been there and come away, there is no way I'll go back.<P>In the long run, I don't think it really has had that much effect on his relationship with OW. He is going play that out dispite anything that I do...so why put myself through some unnecessary grief. <P>I'm still open to reconciliation and still maintaining a good Plan A but moving on with my life in my own mind...in preparation for what might be. I think this is necessary for me...and for him...to realize that the world is not stopping for him to decide what he wants. Life moves on...and so must we.<P>So, as Many Tears says, I am reclaiming my life and finding the joy that has been missing in my life for so long. <P>I pray that your H wakes up before you have to make this choice, but support your need to do so.<P>Angels and Prayers ~ Faye

Haven't posted much lately...busy surviving. But I was where you are about 9 mos ago, and just wanted to offer some encouragement. I chose to draw the line when I could no longer bear the pain of WS's blatant A. Had gotten OW pregnant, still lived with us and refused to give her up. She eventually lost baby, but he wouldn't let go. Rode the fence.<P> So the kids and I moved out in Feb., a "separation for restoration." It WAS easier dealing with the rejection from afar rather than having it in your face every day.<BR>He moved in with OW for 5 mos. Still came to see us nearly every weekend -- he's very close to the kids. <P> Yes, the weekends were tough...him treating me like a stranger and knowing he was going back to her. But I got my health back. And I gritted my teeth and smiled and fixed his favorite meals when he came to visit.<P> Well, several weeks ago he moved out of her place. Seems she got tired of waiting for him to dump me. Started pressuring him. Now he wants to re-unite, saying the kids deserve to have an intact family. Still little affection for me, but he says that will come back in time.b<P> I'm scared stiff -- can't bear the thought of going back to the nightmare I lived in for so long. Can I ever trust him again? I am desperately lonely for the wonderful man I married...will he ever truly come back? I'm struggling with this decision and asking God for guidance.<P> I guess my advice to you is to trust your instincts and be sensitive to TIMING. And be prepared for the long haul. The children will be OK as long as you stay strong for them. Sure, it takes a toll over time, but God honors your prayers (remember, He's on YOUR side)...take care of yourself and I'll keep you in my prayers. You're not alone.

Camryn-<BR>I am not sure you will expect a response. I am happy that your H want to work on the marriage.<P>Be careful of your timing too. Maybe date him for a while, let him live On His OWN with no one taking care of him. Don't make it too convenient for him to move in and be taken care of by you again. If he is his own man, he will gain strength to know and fight for what he really wants! <P>Also do not hope for the man you married. He is gone. He was the first time he cheated. But hope for the new man you will make your life with. The new you and your new-improved H. <P>YES--that is what you must look to. RENEW the marriage, not just restore the old. That one did not work did it? The new relationship will be mutually satisfying and on even terms so trust can return for you. <P>Yes that is the marriage I want too, the new, REnewed version!!

Hi BS,<BR> Thanks for the input. You're right about everything -- the timing is critical. A part of me wants to run back, but I think it's wiser to take my time. I have to know this is for real. ANd if it is, he will wait.<P> At the same time, I'm not sure I want this guy anymore! I've come this far, have acquired some peace -- but the KIDS stop me in my tracks every time I think about moving on. I've still got to keep H in my life for the kids -- and life just becomes even more complicated w/visitation, other mates, etc. <P> So I'm back to giving it a last-ditch effort, I guess -- but on MY terms. Ideally, the people we've become will overcome all the garbage of the past and we can make a new start. We can always hope...