Here goes... Is there a stage where "mind games" seem to be all you want to do with your spouse? My H says he isn't in love with me, wants to be alone, thinks I should get out there and date,time for me to understand and move on ect. Yet, he is coming over for our session with Jennifer again tomorrow. <P>If this is a stage, where were you going with it?<P>Did you know what you wanted and just got confused yourself?<P>Did you tell your spouse to move on/date?<P>If a WS is attending the counseling (even though he believes he smarter than the counselor and just wants to see what they have to say -more mind games?) would WS typically (??) be doing this solely to keep peace for childeren and business purposes? <P>Or would this be something only a person who wants it to work would do?<P>H says this is not "mixed messages" since he he has told me how he feels, yet to me it is because why is he calling me, sleeping over or showing up for a session?<P>Can a person truly not know what they want? what is going on in THEIR own mind? <P>Or is that just a cop out statement to not have to deal with the pain of the descision?<P>I'd love any input or view point.<BR> <p>[This message has been edited by toohurtforwords (edited October 25, 2000).]

Sorry for this but I have one more question...-maybe a few<P>H has said he is not in love with OW, has told her also, and has said he let her know that he does not want to be with her......<P>H said that if he was in love with OW nothing in this world would stop him from being with or dating her. Not me, not our son, not our families. True?<P>Question: Then why is he still having phone conversations with her? And why would she want to speak with him if she has been told how he feels?<P>I know I have been told the same from him. My reasons are that I do love him, we have a child and 13 years together and at times he has said he thinks he will want to come home one day and knows he is making mistakes by not, And that there are days that he does want to be with me and then the next he doesn't. He does have me come around for business reasons and brings his laundry home, then I may not hear from him for a day or two. My reasons for still wanting it to work may not be good reasons , maybe I am not hearing what he says.<P>But beneath all of the lies and non-commital statements...what does this really all mean?

Here are some ideas on what might be going thru your husband's mind. At least these are things I am working through myself.<P>Perhaps like me, he is torn between his "wants" and his "obligations". Deep down, he desires to do the right thing - be the traditional dad and husband and family man we have been taught to be. But he also likes the idea and feeling that there is a woman other than you who finds him attractive, smart, wonderful, whatever, and gives him great sex and builds his ego and he doesn't want to let go of that either. He doesn't have to be in-love with her, either. He may just like her for the way she makes him feel.<BR>He may honestly have no in-love feelings for you. He may truly feel trapped and stifled in his marriage and feels soffocated and needs some space. He may desire to cut loose a bit, go out with the boys, try activities and hobbies that he has not pursued because he's been too busy "doing the family thing".<BR>He is sending mixed messages. He's conflicted about what he wants. He's caught between two worlds, his world of wants and his world of obligations.<BR>Right now you are bull riding. Hang on tight, don't let it throw you. He will move to one world or the other, and the fact that he is staying connected to you and to counseling weighs in your favor. OW cannot make up for 13 years of life experience with you.<BR>Be what you don't feel like being in the face of his vacillation: patient, loving, make home a peaceful place to come to, meet his needs sexually, look the way he wants you to look. Make sure he knows that you believe in your marriage and will fight for it, vocalize the good qualities you see in him.<BR>I was very hard on my wife. I was very vocal about my dislikes and unhappiness. I demanded that she loose 40 lbs. or else. She did all those things I just mentioned. She is the attractive woman I once knew and lusted after. She has made my marriage something I want to come home to. We are still together and working at it, and I am motivated to get back into the marriage.<BR>It will help a lot if he will commit to stopping contact with OW.<BR>Hope this helps. It isn't easy, but if you really want your marriage you have got to grit your teeth and be willing to put up with a lot of crap.<BR>Rockaway

Rockaway,<P>Thank you. <P>As for my looks/weight...I am a size 1 and have been since I met him (other than pregnancy). I get asked out about once a week so that is not a problem.<P>His obligation vs freedom...he (as all of his friends have said) has more freedom than any man they know of. So much infact that he floated away. He is not and hasn't been a "family man/dad" for a very long time. He sees our son when it's convient for him- not when our son asks to see him.<P>As far as the feeling he gets from OW...why does he say he doesn't need to hear the crap from me or her? This to me means she is not making him feel all warm and fuzzy all the time. So why risk your family for someone you do not love or intend on having a life with?<P>As far as no contact with OW...the one time he called in front of me (during an arguement) and told her he could no longer see or speak to her....he called her right after I left to say sorry, he didn't mean it. I doubt he has any intention of stopping contact. And OW's best friend is the wife of a close friend of his, and keeps getting involved, pushing the issue, getting them to the same places as each other and being a go between for information. I know I shouldn't wish this all back onto anyone- but I do wish it for her, so she will get to know exactly the damage that is caused and it isn't a joke. It isn't about her and double dating!<P>I am trying to hold on and "ride that bull" for all I can handle. When H tells me to let go though, I often think..."LET GO, GIRL. The ride is over."<P>I hope that the counseling sessions are a good sign and H does still want to be come home. <P>As for the 13 years...at this point he can only recall bad memories, none good. Says he never was really happy and I never did (or will be able to) satisfy him. I found a letter he wrote to me and never sent, I read it in front of him. All he could say was that it was in a moment of weakness and he didn't mean any of it (since it was nice, brought tears to my eyes)<P>For telling him how I feel....I gave him a jar of "fortunes" (read about one of the women here doing it-GREAT idea) that I wrote myself about the things I love about him, fond memories and funny things over the years. I seen him read a few and his eyes were tearing up...he immediately put them back away and said maybe he'd read them another time. And that was that.<P>Pateince....something I've never been known for, is what I have been. For about 1 1/2years now. <P>I don't mean to complain or sound negative and I do appreciate your input. I get so discouraged at times and think maybe he is being truthful with me and I should just walk away and let him go. I know that only I can make that choice....It is a really tough one.<P>Thanks again and best of luck with your marriage.<P><BR>

Hmmmmmm. I'm a WS, and a man, but I'm not sure I can answer your questions, toohurt. They seem pretty geared toward your specific situation, designed to show how hurt you are, how confused you are, etc., rather than to get genuine information. But I'll try.<P>In your first post, the question seems to be "why is my H telling me everything is over if he continues to come to counseling?" I'm not sure that he's playing a "head game" here, although that's possible (you'd know better than I -- has he done that kind of thing before?). <P>I think the best answer to your question is that, of course, from time to time, it's possible for anyone to not really know their own mind, or what they want out of life. Sounds like your H is in that place now. He says one thing and does another, changes his tune from day to day, etc. He sounds confused to me. The fact that he is going to counseling strikes me as a good thing, on the whole. If he really had no interest in saving the marriage for any reason, he wouldn't come, and it's that simple. His interest in saving the marriage might NOT, of course, arise primarily out of love for you. It might be due to the kids, a sense of duty, religious reasons, or some other reason. But if he's giving it a try, even on a temporary basis, that's a positive thing, yes?<P>Your second question seems to boil down to "he says he's not in love with the OW, but he keeps talking to her, why?" Well, it sounds to me as though he's still involved with her on an emotional level. That can be different than feeling "in love" with someone and/or wanting to be with them. Of course, he might be lying about not being in love with her. But it seems to me more likely that he's still in stages of withdrawal. A crack addict probably wouldn't say that they "loved" their crack while they were coming down, but they still need it, you know?<P>You've been patient for a long time, toohurt, and it sounds as though you're just starting to get frustrated with the pace of things. That's totally understandable. And if things don't improve with the counseling it might be time to shake up the pot a little (if you haven't already) -- boot him out if he's living at home, stop letting him come over if he's not, get a separation agreement, file for D, etc. Only you can judge whether you're at that point yet, but some dramatic action might be necessary to crystallize his thinking. All the best to you.

Toohurt,<P>You have one tough nut there! Man, I don't think I could handle what you have been through. I don't think I could handle what I've sometimes put my own wife through! Reminds me of the title of a book I once read: "All Men are Jerks Until Proven Otherwise". I have to include myself in that category.<BR>I feel nothing but compassion and sorrow for you right now. I wish there was something more I could say or do that would help make a positive difference.<BR>Is Plan B a viable option for you? Maybe your abscence in his life might wake him up to what he would be missing if you were not around for awhile?<BR>I hope someone else here can help you get a handle on your problem. You know you are among friends here.<BR>Rockaway

Taxman,<P>Yes, I guess I do turn the post into how much this hurts me, just runs there I'm afraid.<P>Thanks for the reply . And YES I am getting very frustrated. I am trying to be patient - believe me. I am as loving toward him as I can be.<P>Yes, he has moved out and he is on his own without OW. There are many things that I don't believe that he has told me but in my heart I do believe that he is not/was not in love with OW. He surely would have gone with her by now if he were. Nothing gets in his way of what he wants.<P>I will see what counseling holds today and make my decission from there. The no contact part of Plan B is a tough one...I am part of his business and go to his home/office to do work and get paid. Yes, I have been looking for another job, to remove myself from the work connection.<P>Thank you again.

Rockaway,<P>Yes, he is a tough NUT. <P>Plan B as I replied to Taxman is a tough one for me. I am part of a business that he/we started about 10 years ago. I do go about every other day to his home/office and do the part that is my job. I also do what I can over the phone or from home. There is a paycheck, which myself and son need. <P>I am looking for work elsewhere, so I can start to limit that part of our contact.<P>Yes, I know I am among friends and also know that if there is advice to be gotten out there....I will find it here. <P>Thank you for all your help and support.