Hello All<P>Following on from my previous post, I would like some opinions on the following event.<P>I received a phone call from my W (The WS) last night at around 10pm. This is the first time since D-Day / Flee-Day that she has initiated any contact with me.<P>I picked up the receiver and she launched in with "What do you think that you achieved yesterday by telling OMs Wife?"<P>I said that I wasn't trying to achieve anything other that letting OMs Wife understand that her H was cheating on her and that I felt she had a right to know. I also explained to my W that OMs W had thanked me for informing her and would have done the same for me.<P>My W then said that I had "no right" and "Who made me God for the day?". I did not react with any anger and just said that I felt it was the right thing to do.<P>My W told me that it was nothing to do with me and that I should have kept my nose out!.<P>Also (now check this out, it's priceless!) she said "What has OM ever done to hurt you?"<BR>(D'uh 3 guesses please)<P>I replied that I couldn't care less about the feelings of the OM and that I had done it for his Wife's benefit and that she should be given the opportunity to rectify her relationship with her H.<P>My W then began to cover the same ground as we have in previous conversations (when she can never actually make eye contact with me) and told me that she's changed, doesn't feel the same about me etc. etc.<P>I responded very calmly and explained that although her feelings for me may be gone (or probably severely diminished in truth) that my feelings for her are still strong and I wanted to do everything possible to try and rebuild our relationship.<P>The phone conversation lasted about 20 mins but was filled with many awkward pauses (usually when my W couldn't answer some very simple questions that I was asking, such as "Why didn't we ever sit down and discuss the problems that you feel exist between us")<P>At two stages, I left the conversation open for the word "Divorce" when I asked "Well what's the next step?" and later "What happens now?" On both occasions she remained absolutely silent.<P>I could really do with some opinions or words of advice on any meaning that I could derive from this conversation. In a strange sort of way it feels a tiny bit positive in that at least she felt motivated to call me (probably in anger) to talk. And also she didn't use the 'D' word when the opportunity was presented. <P>However the bulk of the conversation was around negative issues, typically her feelings towards me and our relationship.<P>So I'm really in a quandary on this one. Is it "fog" or is it the beginning of the end.<P>I don't know. What I do know is that I am now on my 5th consecutive day of feeling stronger and slightly better about myself. I just hope that it lasts.<P>Thanks again to everyone<P>HarryHat<P>[This message has been edited by HarryHat (edited October 26, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by HarryHat (edited October 26, 2000).]

Harry - I can't answer your questions about what all this means, but I can give you some comfort in knowing that my wife (WS) reacted the same way as yours when I, in cooperative snooping with the OM's wife, caught them together being, uh, er, well - affectionate, when they were both supposed to be somewhere else. I of course told the OM's wife what I saw and my wife couldn't believe that I would tell her such information and I was the bad guy for a long time. Go figure.<P>WAT

Hey HarryHat,<P>I'm sorry, I don't have any real good advice for you at this time BUT .... you're right, that was priceless "What has OM ever done to you????"<P>Good Lord ... what a FOG this woman is in. Don't you just feel like tape recording all their BS and then one fogless day, play it back for them??? Can you say "LB"?<P>God Bless,<BR>Jo<P>

I know a lot of people say it's none of your business and you shouldn't tell, but as the recipient of an unwanted STD from a cheating spouse (twice- two different WS's), I wish to GOD someone had told me sooner. <P>Anyway, I think you forced the issue and that is a good thing. As long as there is secrecy and denial, nothing can go forward. I can't say which direction it will go, but like you, I am encouraged that she didn't say the word "divorce".

HarryHat,<P>You know you made the right decision. Your wife's uh, er, well, just plain stupid response is her being mad at herself. I will tell OM's wife about affair if I can ever find out who OM is. Wife won't give up much info, and it was a very short relationship so there is not much good that snooping will do (not that I haven't turned every stone, including hacking into the Wharton School's website for alumni directory). <P>I know it will piss my wife off if I ever do so, and it will set us back a few days since we are on a good strong path to recovery, but I feel very strongly about his wife needing to know. I can only imagine what kind of problems she is having with her marriage right now, going through alot of the same issues we all went through before d-day for those of us who knew something was wrong. <P>And yes, part of it is knowing I will be able to f@!k-up his life if at all possible!!!

Harry,<P>Good job. Sounds like you are handling it well. You explained yourself clearly to your W, even though she may not like what she heard. She is fogged.....the beginning of the end? That is anybody's guess.<P>I got the same response when I told OM's W. I was accused of bringing innocent people into the fray. I was also accused of wanting to hurt OM without cause. Okay....<BR>You are experiencing effects of the LB that telling is. <BR> <BR>Your leverage: Now the A is under the microscope from both sides. The OM now has his own pressure...something to consider and deal with on a daily basis. Both your W and OM will have to reflect on what the real worth of the A is.<P>It will not go away overnight, but you have fully exposed the secrecy and deception, and that will change the dynamics for sure. I hope you continue to gain strength and courage. <P>Kudos.<P>Bob<p>[This message has been edited by Dynamo (edited October 26, 2000).]

When I told the OM's wife, my W was also upset with me, stating that I was "mean spirited", that it was none of my business what went on in their house, that I "gave up" on us by telling. The OM even called my house to tell me that what I did was Fu**** Up and to accuse me of trying to get "close" to his W. During this telephone "conversation", his W talked to my W, which led my W to ask me did I know how it felt to have to hear the OM's W crying on the telephone. I wasn't as nice as you Harry, and I by no means recommend this approach, but I told her no, I didn't know what it was like because I had never had an affair, so I guess I will never have to hear a woman's husband crying on the phone with me. My wife was so upset that she said that she was leaving me. I told her that if she waited until after I got off of work, I would help her pack her bags, because I didn't want to be with anyone that would cheat on me, and then be more concerned with the OM's well being than her husband's, and then I left and went to work. My W never left, but she made it very clear to me that she disagreed with me about telling, to which I have simply have responded that we simply have a difference of opinion.

FA,<P>I had the OM confront me twice...outraged that I had screwed with his marriage. I think he believed it was ok to trample on my marriage, but his was somehow sacred. It was surreal!<P>Bob

Hurray Harry!!!!<P>You are handling this with so much class, and that is no small feat.<P>Your wife is simply demonstrating what a fog she is in. The same questions she asked you could easily be turned around on her. Who made her God and gave her the right to screw with two marriages because she was not fulfilled? And as long as the two of you are married, it is most definitely your business. What did the OM's wife ever do to her to cause her to further screw up their marriage?<P>I think her mantra of "I don't feel the same, things have changed, blah blah blah" is a cover for the real answer that she can't yet admit to herself. Which is, "I made a huge mistake, I can't believe I did this, and I don't want to take the responsibility for it."<P>I would be encouraged by her not bringing up divorce. Even if it's only because she now sees that her A may be coming to an end, and she doesn't want to be alone so she can always come back to you. As long as this A ends, you can get a chance to reclaim your marriage. Not the old one, a better one.<P>I'm glad you are still feeling better about yourself. It feels great to take that "victim" sign from around your neck doesn't it?

Dynamo - isn't it amazing how "some" people who are involved in affairs want to blame EVERYBODY else for their problems without ever looking at their own actions. How does one have the gall to get upset about having <B>their own actions</B> being put into the light, that somehow it is the BS that is wrong in the whole situation, that they the WS is somehow the victim in all of this. <P>Simply Amazing !!!

Thanks for all of the supportive posts.<P>I got home from work tonight to find that my W had been to the house and removed more of "her" possessions such as ornaments, records/CDs and an antique chair.<P>I guess that she is in quite an angry state at the moment and of course "I am to blame".<P>I was a little disheartened to see that she had done this but I suppose it is almost an act of retaliation for what I have "done". <P>It is slightly upsetting though because my eldest (age 6) immediately noticed that some particular ornaments and a large picture have disappeared.<P>I / We have not spoken to the kids about the separation situation, I have been trying to pass it off as Mummy having a new job and working through the night, but I think they sense something is wrong.<P>I know that I can't force her to come back, she has to firstly come out of the fog (which I believe she will). However the biggest obstacle will be for her to then overcome her own mind and want to come back.<P>My W is quite a stubborn person and never likes admitting that she is wrong about anything. <P>For her, coming back would be a huge sign of admitting a mistake.<P>Having said that I am just speculating, for all I know she may genuinely believe that we are finished. It's just that I find that so difficult to accept in the light of our history together. When she first left, I had phone calls from her Mum and best friend both expressing their amazement that she had left and to reassure me that "they" had no idea that she felt so bad about the relationship.<P>Maybe I'm fooling myself.<P>Thanks again<P>HarryHat<P>

I just wanted to say that I think you are doing an awesome job at handling this, and I think telling the OMs wife was good. My wife's OM is single, so unfortunately I don't have the same option.<P>Your wife sounds a bit like mine....somewhat stubborn, and not liking to admit wrong doings. I expect that if the fog lifted for mine, she would have a hard time coming back too (she hasn't left yet).<P>Hang in there and keep it up.<P>

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

Harry,<P> Sounds pretty typical from my experience. My wife used to get furious if I contacted the OM's wife. Keep in mind that this contact is definitely a big time LB. In my case I used to defend my actions by reminding my wife that she felt her relationship with the OM was "real", "right thing" and all those other catchy phrases the tell us, then "why should it be a secret?". <P> My real advice to you is to continue to take the high ground and LB only when you absolutely can not stop yourself (it will happen). You really will not be able to predict how your actions will effect the outcome of the situation, but if you continually try to do the right thing, you will have fewer regrets in the long run.<BR>

You know the thing that kept me going for over two years trying to find out who the OM was WAS the desire to tell his wife. <P>I hit a lot of dead ends and spent a bit of money trying to find out. But I knew he figured he had 'gotten away' with it and could spend the rest of his life just having fond memories of his 'sexual fantasy come true' and I couldn't live with that fact. Well I eventually found him, and I gave his wife the information I had about the OM and SHE figured it out that her husband was the OM. <P>I regret nothing I have done. People have to know that their conscious choices and actions ALWAYS have consequences. It's not my fault he didn't consider what might happen if his wife did find out what he had done. He weighed the chance to roll in the hay once with my wife against what it would mean to his wife and family if they were to find out and he made his CHOICE. <P>I know now he will suffer some consequences for his CHOICE to make his fantasy come true. And I pray that he thinks of me everytime he suffers those consequences, like that hurt look in his wife's eyes. And he will see it, he'll probably see it every single day. <BR>Infidelity is a hurt that you may be able to forgive but never, ever can forget. <P>

Hey Harry,<P>Well I just about did what you did. After I found out how to get in touch I wrote a letter first. But I felt bad about sending it cold. And the only reason I was going to send the letter was because I couldn't keep the OM from changing email addresses and sending her more mail(even after 3 months!)<P>I sent him an email and told him if he made one more contact I was going to let the genie out of the bottle. Well he did. There was at least one call and at least 1 or 2 emails.<P>So I called the OM's Wife. But I didn't say who I was(had a lump in my throat). She *69'd and left a message the next day. I called back and we talked for 5 minutes. Needless to say she was in shock.<P>Then I get a call from my WS and I go home to talk. She thought I was bringing in another party into an already crowded field. I told her, I was tired of him sending messages. Of her not telling me. And of her responding. So I sent the letter and called to get him to stop. She thought it was for revenge. I told her, I didn't look at it that way. <P>Its almost like...'what did you do that for?'<BR>Well what did everyone expect? That there would be no consequences for the A ? Everyone would just go on about their life like its ok? These are major hurdles and it takes some doing to get over them.<P>I just figured 2 things, 1) The OM's wife would find out and 2) He would stop the contact because now he was having to deal with the same issues I was.<P>Hope that things will work out for you Harry.<p>[This message has been edited by sj_salsero (edited November 02, 2000).]

Hi Harry<BR> You Go Guy! What you did was absolutely your business and correct. <BR>Deception of any kind at this point will only prolong the pain and heartache.<BR> As for your W removing belongings...this should not be happening. You need to either change the locks OR contact an attorney to find out what steps to take to stop her. Your home and possessions do not belong soley to her, in spite of what her selfish attitude tells her. The home belongs to you and your children as well. I can't imagine a mother being so calloused wuth the feelings of her own children. Doesn't she realize that they will notice things missing from THEIR home, not the least of which is their <BR>MOTHER? <P>Betraying spouses need to learn earlier that there are consequences to their behavior, and they must accept these consequences whether they want to or not. I had spent most of my marriage "putting out fires" and solving problems that my H shold have been helping with just to keep peace and harmony in the family. He rewarded me by having a long-term affair and a baby with another woman after 24 years of marriage. As long as I let him do anf say whatever he wanted (PLAN A?) and continued to try to cover up or solve problems HE created by HIS choices, it continued. When I finally decided to stand up for myself, my life, and my children and say "Oh, No you don't, Buster! Screw her if you want to, but don't expect me to make your excuses to our sons or anyone else. If you're going to behave like an S.O.B. then you will have to accept being treated like one. Remember the saying about "having your cake and eating it too?" <BR> Well, suddenly when no one was around to clean up his emotional and financial messes and he actually had to deal with the pain and destruction he was causing, he woke up. He found out that things were not as beautiful as he thought. He realized that all this was not just some little game....that he wouldn't be able to walk hand in hand into the sunset with his whore and still be able to look himself in the mirror every day. He grew up, and as the poet said, "Today, you are a man!"<BR> Now he looks back on those years as the most terrible mistake of his life, or so he says. Only time will tell. But as I told him, even though I love him with all my heart, I'm not his caretaker or his mommy. Marriage should be a partnership...and if he isn't willing to do his part, I will not "keep the home fire burning" and make his excuses to the world until the "fog" lifts.<BR> I know this attitude is contrary to some MB philosophy, but I have learned a lot in the 2 years since DDay#1. (Yes...there was a DDay #2 ....after nearly 9 months is "rebuilding" ha ha) That's when I began changing my attitudes and my strategies, and now believe we are truly in recovery.<BR> I recently read a wonderful little book called Surviving Infidelity. It is really 365 very brief(less than a page) pieces of advice and explanation. This book goes directly to the heart of what we are dealing with and offers short, clear suggestions that have been a great source of strength for me. (Sorry, but I can't recall the author.) <P>Take care and stay strong.

dds<p>[This message has been edited by cantbelieveit (edited December 04, 2000).]

cantbelieveit - Please post a new topic and tell us a bit more, such as how long the affair is, what the status is between you and your wife, what she is saying, etc.<P>You'll get much more response if it isn't well into someone elses thread.<P>In a nutshell, sorry this is happening. You are not alone. Check out Plan A on this site, and read as much as you can.