I have not posted here in a long while. I have suffered through very serious emotional trauma since my wife began shutting me out of her life. I am feeling at bit better these days and am still hoping that my marriage can be saved.<P>We have been separated for 6 months and my wife claims she has no love or desire to love me again. My two children are at home with her and seem to be OK.<P>During this time I have searched my heart and soul and definitely now realize how I contributed to our problems. I realize now that I may have been suffering from depression for several years and it took its toll on my wife. My failure to get help made her resentful and fearful of continuing in the marriage.<P>Now that we are separated I no longer trust my own instincts with regards to this relationship. They may failed me before and I am stuck. My depression seems to be lifting with meds but the recovery has been slow.<P>The point is that I want to save my marriage, my love for my wife and the life that we began together 7 years ago. I want to bring about changes in my life, my behavior and my realtionship that will add warmth, beauty and love to our lives.<P>She is so convinced that divorce is her only course of action. Yet she has not filed or taken any legal action.<P>My question is what can I do. She has refused additional counseling. We did some counseling initially but that was very hard and painful because I accepted all the blame for the relationship and it sent me into chaos. We have never talked about solutions we just focused on problems. Mostly mine.<P>I feel isolated, alone, frustrated and simply unloved. Do I continue to stand for my marriage, my children, my life or do I walk away? I so very much want to reach my wife in some way but don't know how. She will not relinquish any emotion and feeling toward me or our relationship.<P>Where do I go from here?

John,<BR>Sorry you are in this situation.<P>When we were separated at times my H didn't want much to do with me personally, but he was willing do to things together with me with the kids. In retrospect, I was constantly issuing invitations, in the manner of, "I'm going to take the kids and do _________, would you like to join us?"<P>Things we did under these circumstances:<BR>Pizza & various eats<BR>Park<BR>Watch videos<BR>Gym<BR>Movies<BR>Swimming<BR>Camping<BR>Skiing<BR>Disney World (we were in between separations, but agreed to go "no matter what" the conditions were with our living situation...he'd told me he'd move out #6 separation when we returned and file for divorce. He moved out, didn't file)<P>Anyway, you've probably tried this, but, you might want to try again, now that your depression is easing. It's hard to be *fun* when your life is nothing like you want it to be, but one of the things I told myself was...I want to do this activity, I want to do it with my H, he's agreed, what is not to like? (and disregard all the negatives that occur to you ).<P>Our first separation was 8/98, our last reconciliation 5/00. We're together now and there were many points where it seemed that there was no hope, and H had no feeling for me. He says now that he always felt a kind of love for me, and I am the love of his life.<P>Things can change with time, patience, love. But the longer the bad times go on, the more coping behaviors you will develop and there may come a time when you are done. When I was at that point, my counselor advised me to act as if we were divorced. I couldn't manage Plan B with adolescent kids, but my setting boundaries and moving on with my life changed the dynamics of our relationship.<P>If your W won't go to counseling, and you aren't going yourself, you may find you really benefit from it...to strengthen you for whatever comes. I went without my H, after some months he joined me sometimes. Then I quit, he began going on his own, then I joined him.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."<BR>(Proverbs 15:1).

Thanks for the reply. I understand what you are saying and have considered some of your thoughts.<P>One thing that scares me is my feeling that no matter what I do my wife will not respond. She seems to be the type of person that is so set in her ways and unwilling to be influenced by me, my actions, words or behaviors. It just seems that she could care less.<P>She has told me she sometimes thinks about how this is not the ideal situation (divorce)but taht there is nothing she or anybody can do about it. She states that this is just the way it is and it can't be affected one way or the other. She doesn't beleive in rekindling love, she is convinced that when it is gone it is gone. She once told me early on that she did not tingle when I kissed her and that was a sign of her not loving me.<P>How do we reach somebody we love and get them to see things differently or at least consider a new perspective. I always thought that love itself was a way to reach people, expressing it times of pain, turmoil and uncertainty. My love has no effect on her. I am losing my wife to indifference and intolerance.<P>I don't want to manipulate or control the situation. I just want to reach her someway somehow.<P>Anyone been where I am now?<P><BR>

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

I must tell you that this is the most difficult time of my life. This separation and estrangemant from my wife has forced me to take a hard look at myself. Not something that I really did alot of before.<P>One thing that I realized is that I had become a very angry person, angry at myself, my job, my circumstances and many other normal day to day things. I really became an ugly person. I was abusing myself with self hate and anger. Needless to say my wife was witnessing this and suffering the effects. It is no wonder she fell out of love.<P>I even feel that she saw this effecting my children at some point if it continued.<P>I can see these things now and am only beginning to understand how my attitude and related behavior were to the detriment of my marriage and relationship with my wife.<P>I was destroying the very things that were important to me and couldn't see myself doing it. I see now.<P>My fear is that it is too late and the love can not be restored. I am still searching my heart and soul to find the strength and courage to change my outlook on life. I sometimes wonder if I can change and what am I changing for.<P>I know I must change for myself, my children and my wife. But I fear that I have lost them.<P>This is so hard. I am hoping and praying for guidance from GOD to help me through this troubling time.

Hi JM,<BR> It is nice to see you post again. We had wondered where you went and wondered if they swallow people up at Retrouvaille after you had posted that you and your W were going away for your weekend and then didn't come back here.How did that go?<P> So your wife thinks that D is the only option......but hasn't made a move to file. To me, that would indicate that she is still confused and not sure that that is the right thing to do. That should offer you some hope that all is not lost. You've said yourself that your recovery out of depression has been a slow one (my H had the same angry,destructive type of depression).It's wonderful that you have gotten help and are on meds. Give it some more time. W is probably not convinced that the changes she sees in you are permanent.It's hard to trust that a completely different person can emerge from that angry person you used to be. It took me a long time to trust that my H had truly changed. <P>You are on the right path looking to God in prayer for change to take place in your marriage. You already know,JM, that we cannot do anything to MAKE a WS feel or act differently,much less change their perspective on things. What you can do is continue to change YOU and be the best you,you can be. That, over time,with consistency you will give her the concrete evidence she needs to put some trust and effort back into the marriage. She needs to see that you are bringing that warmth and beauty and love back into your own life FIRST and that will make you attractive and stir her to wonder and examine if those things are true in you and make her want to have them together with you again. They must be true in your own life first.<P>Keep praying, work on you,let her see the new you and trust that God hates divorce and wants your marriage to be restored. Surrender your W to Him and trust Him to be the one to work on her,for we are powerless to change the hearts of our WS but HE can do all things. God's blessings to you.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by john meade:<BR><B>My question is what can I do. She has refused additional counseling. We did some counseling initially but that was very hard and painful because I accepted all the blame for the relationship and it sent me into chaos. We have never talked about solutions we just focused on problems. Mostly mine.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>May I suggest you do something different then if focusing on problems isn't working. I think trying to get to a solution is a bit premature. I think since the problems began in the past, it is best to leave them there and focus instead on your FEELINGS and what is happening TODAY. Keep it focused on the present and keep it specific rather than global, and don't use words like "always" because there is no such thing. Use "I" statements.<P>For instance, instead of saying, "For the past X years, you were always so withdrawn and self-absorbed..." You can say, "When you turned away from me this morning, I felt my heart break because I wanted so much to see you smile." <P>See how the first statement is blaming and focuses on something that has already happened and can't be changed? See how the second one could potentially elicit more willingness to listen, sympathize, and allow her to take some responsibility, while also telling her specifically what she could do to change things?<P>I think it is important to make her feel safe and then to make her feel that the changes you have made are not superficial or temporary. We all respond to love if we can feel safe enough to receive it.

Retrovaille was not a productive experience for us. My wife stated on the first night that the only reason she was there was for me. Not for her or the marriage. That hurt me quite a bit. So we have continued to stagnate since then.<P>She is living in the home, working and enjoying her freedom from the trappings of marriage. She has the kids and keeps busy with them. She is just so matter of fact about the whole thing. Very emotionless.<P>I keep reassuring her that I love her and want the marraige to survive and grow. She only sees one solution. Simply because she no longer loves me.<P>I soflty spoke with her yesterday and told her that I love her and do not like being this far away from her emotionally.<P>As far as a plan A goes I have not been able to maintain a consistent plan A because of my depression. I ahve considered taking my own life many times because of the pain I feel and the uncertainty of the future.<P>I am taking meds but the recovery is slow because of my negative emotions and thoughts about myself. I am stuck beating myself up over my failures and can't seem to make any concrete long lasting changes in my feelings and thoughts.<P>I feel like all my efforts are sinking our chances. I am also consumed with the idea that she may be having a relationship with someone else. Either freindship or EA/PA but I can only say that these are obsessive thoughts. I have no proof nor do i want any.<P>I am trying to continue praying for guidance and humbleness of my spirit. I am clinging to some hope.<P>Please pray with me. I want to rebuild my life in a new and different way with my wife. Or may be without her. And without my children in my life daily and fully. This is very hard.

Sometimes are wonder if my wife is fighting her feelings only because she doesn't feel safe and wants to avoid any additional pain.<P>In recent days when we have been together with the children she has "slipped" up and called me "Dear" (like she used to). LAst night when she came home from work I was lieing on the sofa with my 3 yo son and when she came in she said in a very enthusiastic voice and loving voice "Hi guys". She bent over and gave my son a kiss and had a big smile on her face. She is so beautiful when she smiles. She did not kiss me however. I wanted to kiss her of course.<P>Am I reading to much into these occasional glimpses of our past interactions. Are these just habits that she is working out?<P>Should I ignore these and only focus on what she tells me? I know I am looking for anything that may indicate that she is softening but I may be to sensitive.<P>I called her this afternoon and let her know that I would be stopping by to pick up my voters card. She asked what time and then offered to make a plate of dinner for me since they may have already eaten by the time I get there. I graciously accepted. That was nice of her.<P>I am glad to visit and hate the come and go nature of our situation. How do we as the unloved spouse cope with these intereactions and keep our emotions and love at bay? I don't want to smother her because that is what led to our separation. I was pushing very hard.<P>Any insight would be appreciated.<P>

JM,<BR> Just wanted to let you know I saw your response. No time tonight,but I will pop in tomorrow and add a few words. Chin up and keep praying, I'll keep you in mine.

Went to the house last night after work to pick up voters card and have dinner.<P>My wife and got into a conversation about her plans for the holidays and we ended discussing things a little further. I asked her what was going to happen after the holidays and the first of the year.<P>She sais she was going to file after the first of the year. I calmly told her that I understood her decision but that I was willing to stand for the marriage and make changes to the relationship. I told her that I do not want a divorce but that I can't stop her actions.<P>We talked about some of the past and how she was hurt and felt neglected and taken for granted. I thanked her for telling me these things and let know that I had no explanation for my behavior and that I was sorry had acted so badly.<P>She remarked that I was trying to convince her no to get divorced. I mentioned to her that I could not convince her that she had to do that herself.<P>There was some interesting insight to this conversation. She let me know that my behavior and how I reacted to this crisis has made her doubt the relationship even more. My emotional collpase and depression has caused me not to think clearly. I have been reluctant to care for our children because of my mood swings and utter despair over the potential outcome of this marriage. She did not see me rise above it all and start making an effort. Any effort at all. She remarked that I had not stepped up to the "plate". I haven't but I have been battling my demons of depression and jealousy. I have been weak.<P>I guess there is no turning back. She won't file until January so that we do not have to go thru proceedings during the holidays. She offered to let me spend XMAS eve at the house and be there when the boys wake in the morning. I am aalready anxious about this and wonder if I can handle the emotions of the day knowing that divorce is around the corner.<P>I have suffered a great deal of pain. Often times self inflicted. My pain is real it does hurt and I am angry with myself for failing my wife in good times and bad. I have almost come to the conclusion that I am not capable of handling adversity in any form or fashion. She sees it and now so do I.<P>I am looking for a way out. I can only see my life ahead as being incomplete and full of pain and anquish over my failed marriage. My children and my wife are my only reason for living. I know that sounds sad but that is how I feel. HOw does a person reach such a state of mind. I am literally exhausted mentally. I cannot go on.

John, I so know what you are going though. You try and try and it is misinterpreted, misunderstood and not appreciated. The only thing that keeps me going is that God sees my effort, he knows the good intentions in my heart and will reward me for that some day. Use this adversity to make you a stronger person and improve your relationship with God. That relationship is more important than any relationship with your wife. Hang in there. You are not in the boat alone, trust me. I'm praying for you.

Ok JM, so you've got some time left here! Now is the time to pull it all together and do just what she's wanted all along, STEP UP TO THE PLATE! You've got to tough it out now and get yourself and your emotions in control. Now is the time to give her something to REALLY think about in the next couple of months. You cannot let the fact that she SAYS she is going to file after the holidays shove you into the dirt. SHE HASN'T DONE IT YET! Let her see the man she so desperately has been needing and wanting all along. WE ARE HERE FOR YOU! We are here to support you and give you ideas, USE US!<P>It doesn't sound like your meds are helping you! Please,please go back to the Dr. and get them increased or changed.Keep all of your counseling appts and get the needed and continual support you need to show your wife you are a differnt man now. You've said it yourself JM, your wife and your kids are your life,and now you have to do something about it. She's waiting to SEE it. Hug her, kiss her, ask her out and leave it at that, DO NOT EXPECT ANYTHING IN RETURN. Do it because you are a different man and are doing everything you can to save your marriage. She's waiting to see a different man,show her!<P>When you do the things you need to do to show W you have changed and expect her to act or react, that is when you will become down and depressed. You have to do all those things and expect NOTHING. You have to surrender her internal response to God and let the combination of the changes in you and the work of Him, work on her. You have to know and believe that it is not up to you to change her. If you do this and believe this and give what she is calling these "last few months of your marriage" the very best you can give it,you will feel better no matter what the outcome. If you allow your emotions and depression to rule what little you've got left and hamper your efforts you will indeed feel worse, when and if, she files.<P>Go now and make a plan for an easy going FUN outing for the family.Be affectionate and be loving and then LET IT BE. Start with family outings, all planned by you and get her input. As she becomes comfortable with this try and outing for breakfast or coffee for you and her alone. Short and sweet, but enough so she can see the NEW JM! Then back off and expect nothing! Keep giving her glimpses of the man she needs and wants with no pressure on her to change her mind about anything. What she sees will be what makes her take a second look at the man she's got. I'm praying for you JM. Surrender W's response and heart to God, and FIGHT for this marriage! Remember,come here and vent and use us for your support! God Bless.<P>

I will do as you advise and make our interactions as pleasent and hopeful as possible. I understand the no expectations thing. That is the hard part for someone like me who desires the warmth and touch of my wife. A hug, a caress.<P>I have just started taking an additional dose of Prozac. Just three days now. I am hoping that this will help the depression. I am concerned about my health. Both mentally and physically.<P>MInd you I am not a strong person when under lots of stress. I must learn to deal with it better, so my therapist says. Learn new ways of looking at the world and its ups and downs. This is the key to my unhappiness and depression. Low frustration tolerance.<P>I know its unrealistic but I wish someone could help me, but I know its only up to me. I am praying for GOD's assistance and guidance.<P>I know in my heart I can be the kind of man and husband she desires but I have not really given the effort. Why I do not know. I used to have tremdous drive and determnation but it seemed to slip away slowly. My wife has even mentioned this. I guess the fears and pressures of supporting a family, loving a wife, caring for children and trying to maintain my happiness have taken its toll.<P>These are pressures and expectaions that I put on myself. In my eyes I was either succeeding or failing; no in between.<P>Can anyone understand my situation? I really have hit rock bottom and must begin to look up. To save and better myself. To give my children my love and attention. And to gain some self respect. I need to forgive myself for my transgressions and begin anew. I will press on to the best of my ability.

Something occured to me today around lunch time. I was thinking about my situation and whether I should be so upset. The thought of not loving my wife crossed my mind. I wondered if maybe I don't or am losing that love. Or simply lost it some time ago and did not realize. My behavior towards her over the last 2 years may be evidence to this fact.<P>Is this a normal feeling. Or am I detaching? Or is it typical to look at your bad behavior and try to rationalize why? I know I loved my wife when we were married. I know I loved her before our relationship problems were brought to light by her.<P>Now I wonder? Maybe she is wondering too? Does it sound unreasonable that I want to love her but as things keep deteriorating that love begins to wane? Am I in trouble?<P>