Here's the update...Divorce on full steam ahead. OM back in the picture, STBX talking about how hopeful she is that his divorce goes through so they can finally be together. On a whim, I sent her one of the postings on here...kind of thought it described our situation to a tee.<P>She got very angry with me, and told me to stop e-mailing her "that marriage counseling sh*t." She told me it was over, listed (again) all the reasons why it would never work out, and even told me that I would never understand what she was really feeling!<P>I asked her why there were times when it seemed like she was unsure about what she was doing. She said that sometimes she gets "confused" and questions whether or not she is doing the right thing. This confusion doesn't last long, and whenever I ask her if she's really sure about the divorce, she always replies in the affirmative.<P>So I put my foot down. I said that if there was no chance of reconciliation, and she wasn't planning on leaving the OM and coming back to me, then why should we continue talking about "us?" I suggested (in the nicest way possible) that in the future, if she feels "confused" or needed a shoulder to cry on, that she should call OM...he is, after all, her "soul-mate," right? I also made it very clear that I feel that divorce is final, and though some people get re-married afterwards, we would not be like those people. I also made it clear that I was moving on with my life, re-decorating the house as I saw fit, etc. She also knows I've started dating. I laid it all out on the table that night, probably did a lot of LBing, but I hammered home the point that, if she really wanted to divorce, I would no longer be there for her in any fashion, and that once the divorce is final, she would be nothing more than my ex-wife. I said goodnight and didn't call her for the rest of the week.<P>Last night, she came over to get some more things from the house. I was courteous, but she didn't get one tiny bit of emotion out of me, even though she hung around for almost an hour, making small talk and trying to act as if nothing had changed.<P>Today, I got a phone call from her. Apparently, Saturday night she sank into a deep depression, which she still is dealing with. The pendulum has swung back the other way, so to speak. Apparently something I said took hold, and she began to question her actions once again. Only this time she couldn't call me, so for the better part of a week she had no shoulder to cry on. She went through the same rigamarole about how she loved me, misses me, felt guilty about hurting me, didn't want to throw our life together away, etc, etc, etc.<P>I stuck to my guns. I said that, as her husband, I looked at it as my job to take care of her when she was feeling down. She fired me from that job, but still wants to use me in case of emergency. I told her she couldn't do that anymore. I said I wanted to help her, wanted to console her, wanted to make her feel better, but it was no longer my responsibility to do so, and that I would gladly help her, but as her husband, full-time, and not just when she needed it. I told her that the door to my heart is closed, but she still holds the only key, and can use it anytime. <P>If the tone in her voice is any indication, she's wavering more than ever before. I'm just wondering what the next move is...

Wow, Cactus!<P>You go, Man! I wish I could stand up so nicely. I will in a month, however, if I don't crumble. I think you have balls of stone!! Oops! Indelicate, I know.<P>My H is floundering even more than before, and I see no light in my tunnel yet. (If I will.) But he tries to take the therapist's advice. He actually booked two days in Sadona after Xmas when the kids are away. i didn't think he had the guts to go through with it. I was just telling Th. today that I really didn't want to go, now. I am not sure. Maybe it was because I was afraid of how he would be acting there, and I just did not want to deal with it. That still may be true, I don't know.<P>Do you ever find yourself looking at the Newbies here on the sight, trying to identify your spouse? I know my H does not look outside his own mind right now, so I am safe: anonymity, you know. But I still find myself looking. It is nerve-racking. <P>I wish I had better news, but here we are 5 months later and we are worse than ever, and my H is depressed--at least he started meds 3 days ago, and so far the drinking is stopped(for the med.) For now. I really believe that he may require treatment, though. I cannot see him making it through the chemical withdrawl AND the depression. Even if that is why he stopped drinking for now. <P>We will see what my Xmas brings. But at least it took care of the problem of a present for me(the trip.) So far all that is under the tree for me is a CD. And a gift that Santa bought for me . <P> Thank God I have a loving family, or I would have an emarrassing Xmas in front of the kids. What if they noticed? That Mom got ONE present, and why did Dad not take them shopping this year? [Dad does not even want to do xmas this year. He's fakin' it in front of the kids.]<P>

cjack - nice tactical move. I may need to get you to represent me some day. I guess this is sort of a slam dunk Plan B, take it or leave it, bottom of the ninth, two outs, ultimatum. Stand tall, you make the rest of us proud. Keep us informed.<P>WAT

Cjack -<P>Wow, I'm impressed. I think you communicated everything very, very well. I hope she is thinking. She should be depressed. If the divorce goes through, she will be losing one of the good guys !

Cjack,<BR>You are doing what my counselor advised me to do the last time(s) my H left. Treat him as if we were divorced. I wasn't to be his midnight consoler, I wasn't going to be his best friend AND ex-wife--if H was in real trouble he could call the counselor. I said it very heartlessly, afterall, H hadn't been there for me when he first left and I was crying and miserable every night--he was off with the OW. <P>It was never my choice that H leave the household, but with the last separation I chose not to let him come back home right away when he did want to come home. I would just advise you to be cautious with your dating if there is any chance that you want your W back...I know you had a long thread on that before, and you do intend to guard your emotions. I still occasionally have to deal with the OM I saw during that time (counselor advised against *that*), and I wish that I did not have to, as it does not in any way help our marital reconciliation.

Okay CJack,<P>Heres the thing I love about what you're doing...you know your wifes needs, I mean we have learned something here for Gosh sake. You KNOW there are certain needs that your wife has that OM can not meet. You have to let her hang out to dry here. You have to wait it out and let her see...all by herself...that there are a whole lotta things out there that OM can not do for her. My plan exactly!<P>I know my H has a huge need for conversation. He still calls me all the time and wants to chat about all sorts of stuff. We always were able to talk for hours, even during the worst of this mess. I know OW...she is a rather aloof person. I spotted early on that there is no way she will meet my H's need for converation. I force myself to cut him off now every time he calls. I am pleasant for the most part, but the thing is, I think I'm leaving him wanting more. <P>We have to let them see what it will truly be like on the other side of life. You know you could call your wife right now and go right back into her leaning on you for all of this stuff...you know you have that power, but what you are doing is so smart. You're giving her a glimpse of divorced life, just like Lor says...a glimpse of what this is really going to be like.<P>I limit my conversations to my husband about the kids, but put in a bit of interesting info now and then...just a tad, enough to get him interested in what the heck is going on. He called me yesterday, wanting to hear all about my new job, the holiday shopping, some (yuck) surgery that I had to have, and I very sweetly said I had to go. He said I was driving him crazy...he was laughing when he said this.<P>So, onward and upward CJack and all. Lets' do what we have to do and pray that we are not the ones here who are nuts. <P>Who knows what the future will bring, but we will sure be better equipped to deal with crazy people in the future.<P>BTW, take it slow with your new friend. We need to chat about what to do with these new relationships, but MBers will flame us half to death (love you guys here...but some do tend to be a bit black and white on this one). <P>allison

Hey cjack - just saw your phone conversation on ESPN - it was the "Play of the Day."<P>WAT

Thanks to all for the replies...I was feeling kinda down this morning, but now I feel better!<P>burnedspouse: Those balls of stone have been built up through 6 months of emotional sludge. I've learned some really harsh lessons lately. I hope I'll be better for it. Hang in there, and I'm glad your H has stopped drinking. Pouring depressants into your gut when your depressed doesn't help much! And yes, I could've sworn my W posted something as a newbie..but maybe not. I actually hope she reads this stuff!<P>WAT: Thanks for the sports analogies. I use them all the time at work, but never thought to apply them here...hope I can connect with the next curve she throws!<P>SKM: That's exactly what I'm trying to make her see. Thanks again.<P>Lor: I think the dating thing is actually what made me strong enough to lay down the law. I've really only had one date with this woman. I know she's not right for me, and I know it won't work out in the long term, but we're both kind of in the same place emotionally. For the last 6 months my life has been falling apart over the divorce, and for the last 6 months she's been battling a chronic illness. So we're both just coming back out into the light, so to speak, and she knows where I am in my relationship with my W, and is okay with that. The reason it made me strong is because I realized that I CAN get through this, I AM worthy of another's affections, and I WILL find someone else eventually. Like the old saying goes, there are plenty of other fish in the sea...and though I don't want to go back out there, I know now that I can still catch 'em if I need to!<P>Allison: Ahh, you've learned Rule #1 in the entertainment business: Always leave 'em wanting more! I think MB has given you and I skills that our WS's don't even know we have...it has put us more in control of our lives, even when our lives seem to be out of control. Keep to your plan...MAKE him miss you. And let him know that, if and ONLY if he's willing to come all the way back, he'll have a thinner, cleaner, smarter, and better W this time around. My W kept saying how depressed, sad, and confused she was sometimes. The guilt and confusion are sometimes overwhelming. I told her "You have the power to change all of this. Only you can make the pain go away. It doesn't HAVE to be like this."<P>My fingers are crossed. I'll know more after the holidays.

cjack,<P>Of course your wife is confused...we all are<BR>at times just maybe about different things. I am sure you have done things to your wife that was confusing and hurtful to her before she left. No I am not saying you are to blame.Love is not about playing the blame game. WE ARE BOTH to blame when a marriage fails. To view it otherwise is like saying well she did worse than me at least I didn't do what she did. I have been on both sides in my first marraige I was the "bad guy". This time the tables are turned some and a few years ago I questioned my love for my current husband. If you are the "good guy" don't worry you will learn like I did that you will get your turn at being the "bad guy"<BR>and it hurts also. Of course your wife is hurting. But who are we to force our ideal of recovery on our spouses. Try and put your self in her place,this may be hard since the BS here seem to have done everything as best as they could. Your wife loves you. She is having a self esteem problem. Her affair is her addition and she is probably waiting for you to rescue her. What she doesn't know is she has to rescue herslf.I know you told her this but sending her emails like that just makes her feel guilty and dirty. Most people would cut off their right leg to have their spouses say the things your wife is saying. If it makes you feel better for everyone to agree with you, then you have your reward or fix for the day. If your wife is what you want then show her unconditional love and stop backing her in a corner. Love believes all, doesn't count wrongs, and love is patient and kind. You cannot change your wife. She needs to know she is worth something. NO you did not cause this but you can make it worse. Go back to dating your wife, would you have sent her an email about what she should be doing or would you have sent her a loving card instead that let her know you love her no matter what. It sounds like your love is conditional. I will love you if you become what I want and need.<BR>Love is not self seeking. Oh but what about her self seeking ways. Love her like she is or lose her forever!You cannot change her or convince her of anything. Yes you have her in that corner but is that really were you want the one you love with all your heart. When people try and make you feel bad about yourself do you keep running to them. Sorry if I have offend you are anyone else but it would be great if some of you started looking at your part and your hearts. I don't believe any of you have the right to decide that your spouses are the ones wrong.<BR>I hope each of you that would like to have your revenge would look at things you have said and done to your spouses or others. We all have those things. What if someone sent you an email telling you what you need to do about yourself. Oh yes, I have been through all of this. I am thankful that there were people that cared enough about me to tell me <BR>these very things, because then it wasn't all about what had been done to me. I had to look at what I had done and was doing to others. Brought me down quite a bit. I had pushed the person I love into a corner. They come out of the corner later only to resent the one that put them there. It may not show at first but you will see it. I hope you want your wife in this corner.<p>[This message has been edited by gentle (edited December 19, 2000).]

Thanks for your post, Gentle. Let me point out a few things, though. <P>You say: "I am sure you have done things to your wife that was confusing and hurtful to her before she left. No I am not saying you are to blame.Love is not about playing the blame game. WE ARE BOTH to blame when a marriage fails."<P>Yes, my failure to meet her EN's precipitated the A. I understand that I am equally responsible for the state of our marriage up until the day the A started.<P>You say: "If your wife is what you want then show her unconditional love and stop backing her in a corner."<P>I showed her unconditional love throughout our marriage. She never really returned it unconditionally. Through the discovery of the affair, her moving out, filing papers, etc., I have held the door of my heart open for her, shown her love, been there whenever she needed me, and she trampled on my heart with more lies. I backed her into a corner out of desperation. I feel like I've run out of options. I don't even know if I still have any love for her left, but I fear divorce more than anything. I feel like I'm the one who's been cornered!<P>Then: "It sounds like your love is conditional. I will love you if you become what I want and need.<BR>Love is not self seeking. Oh but what about her self seeking ways. Love her like she is or lose her forever!You cannot change her or convince her of anything."<P>Yes, my love for her has become conditional. I even told her that. It seems like every time I let my guard down and try to love her unconditionally, she hurts me. I know she really doesn't mean to, but after being burned over and over again, I have to set conditions on my love in order to protect myself. I know I can't change her, she has to want to change. I still care for her and want the best for her, that is why I am trying such extreme measures to clear this fog before it is too late. If I didn't love her so much, I would've been gone along time ago. I've given up a few times already, accepted that we will be divorced, and tried to come to grips with what is happening to me. I know it is rough on her as well, and it pains me to see her struggle with this.<P>I don't really look at it as backing her into a corner, though. I feel as if I'm making the implications of her choice painfully clear. She chose to move out, file for divorce, and keep her relationship with OM. She thinks that if things don't work out with the OM, she can come running back to me. I'm sorry, but I will not be her doormat for the next couple of years!<P>I made it clear that if she divorces me, the friend/chef/mechanic/computer guy/shoulder to cry on/nice guy that she's grown attatched to will be GONE. I also empowered her by letting her know that she has the power to change the situation. She is holding all the cards, and I have made it equally clear that I will take her back at any time until the divorce is final. <P> Like WAT said, this is the bottom of the ninth, two outs, and I'm swinging for the fences.

cjack,<P>You are right you both are backed in a corner.That is the sad part. Please understand I went through all the same stuff.<BR>I would send my husband letters and materials<BR>about divorce. Even tried to make him go to counseling it all push him futher away.He was home for awhile and I pushed him in a corner and he left.I also remember what my first husband did to me when I left him. Everything he did pushed me away. What to do then...nothing.I know that is hard but stop sending her things be thoughtful when she calls but don't ask her anything. Just be a loving friend who listens. Then she will draw closer to you. No matter how wrong she is don't tell her. she will start to respect you for it. Then with the respect she will see just how much she loves you. Part of it is she can't forgive herself for what she has done to you. So don't mention it then slowly she will show you respect. That is what is all about respecting each other. Believe me I have learned the hard way that you get what you give. Don't let your heart harden. You will not be a doormat...you will be a loving friend she can turn to and the guilt will go and she will learn to respect herself.This sound crazy but it works.Give her time. Sometimes divorce have to happen so they realize the marriage was not the problem in the first place.It is how they feel about themselves. If she thinks of you and thinks of good things she will need OM for affirmation less and less. <BR>I believe you do love her very much or I would not be posting these things. I have no desire to bring glory to myself.I got over that awhile back. You are just hurt and confused also. Calm down and it will get better.<BR>gentle

cjack<P>You have certainly got a lot of support and advise regarding your latest actions and indeed a notable reaction from your W. I would be interested in which thread you sent her from here that described your situation. The one that got her so upset?<P>It seems we have a lot in common. My W also wants to leave for OM who lives interstate. She also wants a Divorce and Financial settlement. She doesn't however seem desperate to do so as she is still living with me. <P>I too look at these things as being so final. My W doesn't, she seems to think like your W that if things don't work out in a couple of yrs we can get back together (what fog). <P>I have been in Plan A for 4 months which seem like 3 yrs. It seems to be having some effect but it is so slow, it is no doubt having a cumultive affect on my relationship with her.<P>I have often thought about giving her an ultimatum, but I dont believe at this stage it would do any good. Like Gentle says to back them in to a corner with no way out can have the opposite effect. Sometimes ultimatums come at a time when there is a great deal of emotion involved. You have to be careful not to say you will do something that you don't intend to carry out as this will show you as being inconsistent. <P>The final ultimatum for me will come when either I move out or she does, then it will be a full Plan B which of course is an ultimatum anyway. It seems such a clear cut way as it breaks all communication and sets clear guidelines for the WS as to how that communication can be reinstated and in no uncertain terms.<P>It seems your W is really confused to be relying so much on you for support, yet hell bent on being with the OM. What needs is he fullfilling if he is not even providing the basic support that you are giving her, very strange.<P>I admire your courage and will be following your progress. I dont know how long you have been in this situation but mine spans 20 months with one attempt so far at reconciliation (requested by my W).<P>Keep up the good work and best of luck.<BR>Colin<P>

I think that what's happening right now, cjack, is exactly what needs to happen in order for your wife to understand what she's actually DOING to the marriage.<P>I was a WS years ago (haven't posted here in ages) and until my husband severed emotional ties with me because of my actions, I didn't realize what damage I had actually done. We had our problems in the marraige, but what married couple doesn't?? It doesn't mean that I had the excuse or reason to do what I did. No WS does. It was a bitter pill to swallow, but a necessary one when my husband pretty much told me that he wasn't going to live the way we were anymore (my affair). <P>I don't think that continually doing the same thing over and over (acquiescing to the WS demands, depositing love units and allowing the WS to come to you whenever they feel necessary) will bring them back. I also don't believe in LB's of course (which you're not doing at ALL). It sounds to me as if she's coming out of this, because she knows you're not always going to be there if she's still with the OM, and this is what she really needs to realize. <P>Just wanted to let you know that I believe your wife will come around, but she needs to realize what she will be giving up and also realize the repurcussions of her actions.