?

Mike,<P>First of all thank you for asking how I am doing. It really means a lot to know someone is thinking of you.<P>I'll give you a quick overview:<P>Jan. 15th was d-day. My wife confessed to having 2 PA's within the last two years. The last one didn't turn physical until 4 days AFTER I sat down with her an expressed my concerns about her potential to have an A with the OM. I know she still has feelings for him even though she says they are just friends.<P>I finally realize that my wife needs treatment for Addictive Behaviors. I also realize now she's verbally and emotionally abusive and controling. I also learned that my work on our marriage lead to me becoming co-dependent. Talk about an eye opener!!<P>I feel like I've finally returned to reality after living within her fog for so long. I wouldn't wish my reality on anyone, but there is a certain peacefulness when you return. I'm strong enough, I will not let her emotionally hurt me anymore. I'm strong enough to take control and protect our children from the pain we where causing them. I WON'T STAND FOR IT ANYMORE! I've turned the corner so to speak. I will no longer try to make her happy, she is the only one who can make herself happy. I will no longer take responsiblity for her actions or reactions to our marriage. I will wait and hope no longer for her to acknowledge my EA's.<P>Right now I can not love her like I use to. There have been to many lies, to many words that cut my manhood apart. Although I've given up on us for now I have not given up on getting her well. Not for my sake, but the kids sake. I couldn't leave right now if I wanted to because I do not trust her to provide a safe, nuturing enviroment for our children. Myself, her family and most of her friends realize all we can do is support her and kick her in the [censored] if needed. She is a wonderful mother, but the grip of her addictions are deep, she has no sense of reality. <P>On a positive note, she is starting therapy this week. She has acknowledged she has a problem and is looking for help. That's all anyone can expect right now. In the mean time I'm going to explore this world with my kids, and enjoy every minute we are together. <p>[This message has been edited by Raysofhope (edited January 21, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raysofhope:<BR><B>I know she still has feelings for him even though she says they are just friends.</B><P>Hi Ray,<P>I'm sorry that it turned out to be this way, although I suspect you knew all along. At least it is out in the open, and you can tackle the problem.<P>You've made one huge step, and that is to get your W into counseling. And, she has indicated that she retains love for you and wants to work on the marriage. That is more than a lot of people get on D-day...<P>If what you say above is ture, than your next gaol should be for your W to agree to NO contact with the OM. Is it a co-worker? Or will breaking contact be easy? Wayward spouses usually fight this pretty strongly, but, according to Harley, it is only after contact is totally broken that healing can begin.<P>If you can afford a hundred bucks, I strongly recommend counseling by phone for an hour with Steve Harley, with or without your W, in fact, maybe preferentially without for the first few sessions. He will help you during this crucial period.<P>Did you send the letter you were drafting?

Mike,<BR>The no-contact idea was brought up last night. I found out about a hockey team party she wanted to attend last night after taking our kids to a hockey game. The OM is a 21yr old hockey player and my wife has been hanging out with this crowd for a while. Anyway, she asked me if I would mind if she went to a work party for a little bit, no drinking, after the game. It was so pathetic I almost burst out laughing. I told her I would no longer watch the kids for her to go out and "socialize". I also made sure she wasn't able to pawn our children off on our baby sitter after the game. Well, when she returned home from the game she warned me that a female friend of hers might call for ride from the "work" party. How convienant, huh? I just looked at her and said there is no "might" about it, she is going to call. 30 minutes later the phone rings, guess who? Well at this time I gave her every opportunity to tell me the truth, she couldn't. <P>Before she left she wanted to make sure I knew she had started to work on herself and our marriage. She wanted me to know she was trying. I gave her one suggestion, "try starting with honesty first". Now that I had her attention I told her that if she really wanted to work on the marriage she would have to stop socializing with OM and the group. If she does it great, but I'm not going to lose sleep over them anymore. She did pick her friend up an came straight home.<P>I am just starting to look into therapy for myself. I want to be prepared for the long road back from addiction with her. I do not want to start working on the marriage until she gets a hold of her addictions. <P>I did send the letter. I'm not exactly sure what effect it had, but as I read it again it made me feel good that I was strong enough to write and send it in the first place. <P>One problem I do have is addressing the emotional and verbal abuse issue. Should I wait for counseling or continue with my "tough Love" the next time it surfaces? Not quite sure how to handle it. <p>[This message has been edited by Raysofhope (edited January 21, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raysofhope:<BR><B>One problem I do have is addressing the emotional and verbal abuse issue. Should I wait for counseling or continue with my "tough Love" the next time it surfaces? Not quite sure how to handle it. </B><P>Well, I'm not sure I know enough to give an opinion on that. But I would strongly recommend that you counsel with Steve Harley. He will give you an effective plan of action.<P>It sounds like she is cutting you some respect, anyway. This sounds like a good timwe to set boundaries, and let her know what the consequences will be if she continues the affair.<P>Mike <BR>

Mike, it's like your reading my mind! I've been reading the "boundries" thread in the Womans Bible Studies thread. Setting personal boundries has really helped me focus on the real issues. Boundries for my wife and I will be more difficult. <P>As I've stated, I am not willing to work on our marriage right now from an EN stand point. <P>I guess the first boundry would be, when she has control of her addictive behaviors, we will focus on the marriage.<P>Another boundry I set, and didn't realize I did it was telling her I would not watch the kids anymore while she socializes when alcohol is involved.<P>Letting her know I can not work on the marriage until she stops socializing with the "group" is another boundry I've set.<P>Any other suggestions? <P>Thank you,<BR>Ray

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I guess the first boundry would be, when she has control of her addictive behaviors, we will focus on the marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ray, <BR>I feel sorry for the horrible pain you've gone through, but it does sound as if you are starting to come out of the shock.<P>I deal with a very similar situation. My W and I are both recovering addicts. We met in a recovery group 14 years ago. I've stayed clean all that time, but my W has relapsed onto drugs, and acted out addictively with spending, eating, anger, and sex with several men.<P>I read you loud and clear when you say you can't work on the marriage while the addictive behavior is still going on. I sometimes feel at odds with the prevailing opinion around here regarding "plan A". I try to keep an open mind, and I think many people who are in affairs are not addicts, though there behavior may mimic that of an addict. For such people, a plan A while the A is ongoing might work. With a true addict like me, or my W though, it is completely counterproductive. The first thing you learn in treatment is that the addict cannot even begin to get better till they stop using. Anything we do to make it easier for them ignore the consequenses of their actions is called "enabling", and is doomed to failure.<P>I'd encourage you to get your W to see a phychaiatrist, and to try to get into a treatment center for addiction. I'd look for a center that has programs on sex addiction, and dual-diagnosis. My W is very likely to go into one next week at 4 1/2 months since dday. She has given up contact with the OM, but she still struggles with the addictive way of dealing with life...she continues to lash out in anger, blaming others for her mistakes. <P>I'd also strongly suggest you try attending Al-anon meetings. It's whole focus is living with addiction. You learn how to detach with love, which is what it sound like you are dealing with. There are some wonderful people in Al-anon. Go.<P>One other bit of hope, Ray. She <B>can</B> change. I know, 14 years ago everyone had given up on <B>me</B> including myself. Today I have a good life. Yes, I have heartbreak, but I'm alive to feel it. My pride has been hurt, but I have 14 years of living a respectable honest life to fall back on. <P>good luck to you Ray,<BR>Dave

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raysofhope:<BR><B>Boundries for my wife and I will be more difficult. As I've stated, I am not willing to work on our marriage right now from an EN stand point. I guess the first boundry would be, when she has control of her addictive behaviors, we will focus on the marriage.</B><P>That all sounds a tad negative to me. Revisit what Plan A is supposed to do -- it is supposed to make YOU a better person, a better mate, a more attractive alternative. Then, once those behaviors become apparent, your wayward spouse has a much easier choice in committing to you and the marriage.<P>Plan A shouldn't be something you should hold over her head as a bribe, it should be something you do yourself as a way of helping your marriage.<P>Does that make sense?<P>Now, in terms of boundaries, you pick a perfect one. No, you will not rearrange your schedule to facilitate her affair. Hard to argue with that. Also, if there is abusive language or behavior, you will not accept it, but will remove yourself from the situation once she exhibits an inability to calmly discuss the topic.<P>The key goal for you has to be to separate her from this team or this guy or whatever is the catalyst for the affair. Separate as in NO contact, no voicemails, emails, phone calls, zero. As it seems like her friends also run in the same circle, this will be a big social disconnection for her. It is important that you try to step into that social void in her life in order to make the separation work.<P>Once that separation takes root, she "withdraws" from the bond with the OM, you should see progress.<P>Mike

David<BR>Thank you for your insight and inspiration. i plan on attending al-anon meetings soon. What are some of the things you had to do to overcome your addictions? <P>Mike<BR>[That all sounds a tad negative to me. Revisit what Plan A is supposed to do -- it is supposed to make YOU a better person, a better mate, a more attractive alternative. Then, once those behaviors become apparent, your wayward spouse has a much easier choice in committing to you and the marriage.<P>Plan A shouldn't be something you should hold over her head as a bribe, it should be something you do yourself as a way of helping your marriage.<P>Does that make sense?]<P>Yes it does, but..... <BR>I've been practicing a plan A for a year now. My wife identified areas which I could improve, I committed to correcting them. She has acknowledged my improvment in the past, but it has had no effect on rebuilding intimacy. In fact I tried so hard changing the things I did to cause her pain, I failed to recognize how selfish some of her demands were. I'm not dealing with a rational wife, I'm dealing with a women with no sense of reality. What she sees as perfect is totally unobtainable or irresponsible. Does this make any sense? I will not hold my plan A over her head. I am continuing with my plan to make myself a better person and father. So far so good, I feel really good about myself now. <P>I guess I've started a plan B already. I will not let her cause me pain anymore. <P>[The key goal for you has to be to separate her from this team or this guy or whatever is the catalyst for the affair. Separate as in NO contact, no voicemails, emails, phone calls, zero. As it seems like her friends also run in the same circle, this will be a big social disconnection for her. It is important that you try to step into that social void in her life in order to make the separation work.<P>Once that separation takes root, she "withdraws" from the bond with the OM, you should see progress.]<P>I agree totally. The other night when she asked me if she could go to the party. I counter with an offer. I suggested she pick up a movie after the game and we could watch it instead. I am also starting to plan more routine activities with her and the children. ex. Once a week take the kids bowling, snow tubing, etc. I also plan making time for and us to socialize with her more mature friends. I don't want to completely isolate her, but I have to set firm boundries. I'm not dealing with just infidelity. I'm dealing with addictions, addictions to alcohol, relationships, emotional abuse and obsessive/compulsive behaviors. <P>Am I making any sense?<BR>Your friend,<BR>Ray <P> <BR>

Mike wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>That all sounds a tad negative to me. Revisit what Plan A is supposed to do -- it is supposed to make YOU a better person, a better mate, a more attractive alternative. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Doesn't sound negative to me at all. Sounds like he's facing reality.<P>I have a feeling Ray is already a <B>way</B> more "attractive alternative". Doesn't matter sometimes. To an addict attractive is really irrelevant - it's the thrill of the chase. When dday happened for me, my W was about to go off to Florida to have sex with someone she didn't even know. I've seen his picture - he's one ugly looking guy. <P>Sure, I think us BSs should not seek revenge. We should get in touch with who <BR>we are. <B>Be</B> the person we are, stand up for the values we believe in. But to ignore, or condone contact with the OP is to accept abuse.<P>You know it's funny. How <B>do</B> you meet their ENs? Back when I was shooting dope, I used to tell my family that I "needed" money. I made up all kinds of lies as to why I needed it, and I often convinced them. They should have told me "no". If they had, maybe my first daughter would not have had to grow up without her father.<BR>Dave

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>To an addict attractive is really irrelevant - it's the thrill of the chase. When dday happened for me, my W was about to go off to Florida to have sex with someone she didn't even know. I've seen his picture - he's one ugly looking guy. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is all too true. The truth for the betrayal is horrible, once it comes to the light of day. I will come out and say that I am DaveB's wife. I cringe when I think about what I have done, and when I see the picture of that person it makes me sick. <P>To think that I have almost thrown away my life for that it is disgusting. I am totally shocked at my behaviour.<P>Ray, I will agree with you and Dave on the Plan A. I have asked him "how come your not meeting my EN's?<P>Well, if truth be told, he was meeting my needs the entire time in our relationship. I was totally love busting everystep of the way. It is my turn to meet his needs. I must do so, without any thought of him returning mine. I must do this for him. <P>You are on the right path Ray. Giving her what she wants will only enable her.<P>Take care and god bless<BR>PJ<BR>

DavidB and PlainJane<P>This is the first time I have been able to see my life in print. Thank you so much for taking the time to help me. I would be interested in learning any type of plan you used to overcome your problems. I still care for my wife and she seems willing to make an effort to change. We need guidence from people who have been there, done that.<P>Ray <p>[This message has been edited by Raysofhope (edited January 22, 2001).]

<BR>I will readily admit that all this talk of addictions has me in the dust. I guess every wayward spouse has an addiction to the OM, and some Harley articles refer to it as such, right down to characterizing withdrawal the way that one would with an alcoholic.<P>So, I don't think you toss the MarriageBuilders plan out the window in a situation where behavior seems to exhibit signs of addiction.<P>If you have truly been Plan Aing for a year, and your W is continuing this affair without breaking contact, then you are in the situation that Harley describes where the wayaward spouse gets comfortable having their needs met both by the Plan Aing spouse and the outside lover. That is a trigger for Plan B.<P>My instincts tell me that it is way too soon for that, since you only recently had a formal D-day, and your W is at least open to amending her behavior. I do think you need to set some extremely stringent rules down on her activities, and make her accountable to you for her time and actions. This may be necessary for only a relatively short period of time, but it is essential to rebuilding your trust and ensuring that contact is broken with the OM.<P>Some people refer to this phase as babysitting, and that is almost what it is....you would need access to all her communications passwords and records in order to assure yourself that there is no contact. <P>If she is unwilling to take this step...well, what does that tell you?<P>Mike

[So, I don't think you toss the MarriageBuilders plan out the window in a situation where behavior seems to exhibit signs of addiction.<P>If you have truly been Plan Aing for a year, and your W is continuing this affair without breaking contact, then you are in the situation that Harley describes where the wayaward spouse gets comfortable having their needs met both by the Plan Aing spouse and the outside lover. That is a trigger for Plan B.]<P>I agree. Plan A to me was becoming a better person with hope I would become "attractive" to her again. It had the exact opposite effect. The more I gave, the more she took. Can anyone say co-dependent?<P>By your definition I'm way late for my plan B. I have been filling the household needs for some time now, while she recieved her other needs through different avenues.<P>In addition I do not get overly excited when she makes promises to work on the marriage. I've learned these are more damage control than anything. This time she is going to have to follow through on her promises. <P>I have started to lay the frame work for my boundries:<BR>1. Go to counciling and communicate your feelings with me.<BR>2. Cut off all ties with the "group", period.<BR>3. Call if your going to be late with the phone # of your location.<BR>4. NO socializing with alcohol as the focus.<BR>5. One strike an your out. <BR>My next request will be to have access to her cell phone bill and e-mail account. Like you said, if she doesn't agree..........<P>Ray <P>

ccmail[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raysofhope:<BR><B>I agree. Plan A to me was becoming a better person with hope I would become "attractive" to her again. It had the exact opposite effect. The more I gave, the more she took.</B><P>Well....I guess I'd have to ask for more specifics, but one of the rules of Plan A is don't do anything you wouldn't be comfortable doing for the rest of your life. So, you should still set boundaries and stay within your comfort zones. <P>Before you set any ultimatums up, think about whether you are ready to enact the threatened consequences. In fact, don't do any of that until you talk to a Harley. Your W is starting counseling, that is a very good thing. Many counselors are familiar with the Harley methodolgy...hers may be. My local counselor gave me the Harley website url,lo near a year ago <P>After she settles in with a few sessions, you may want to see if it would be appropriate for you to talk to her counselor. <P>But my strong advice to you, as someone that has counseled with Steve Harley and saved his marriage, is don't go through this crucial period now freelancing on the partial understanding of Harley's methods that is available on this website and in his writings. His counseling methods are a lot more sublte and tailored than you will get here reading. I was WAY off in my Plan A...god forbid if I had tried to muddle through an emotional Plan B on my own.<P>Please, call the counseling center on the home page and get a quick session.<P>Mike<P>

Mike<BR>You are right. I'm at a critical part of the story now and I can't do it all alone. I have the strength, but not the knowledge.<P>I asked my wife if I could have her pass word to her e-mail account. She became very defensive and would not give it to me. She said she didn't want to live with me looking over her shoulder. I explained to her it was a matter of trust and honesty with me. A few minutes later she got on the PC and I saw her delete somethings, then she had the nerve to say she wasn't trying to hide anything. A few minutes later she told me her password in a very irritated manner. At this point I didn't need to use her password, her actions were all I needed. The lies just keep on coming....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Raysofhope:<BR><B>Mike<BR>You are right. I'm at a critical part of the story now and I can't do it all alone. I have the strength, but not the knowledge.<P>I asked my wife if I could have her pass word to her e-mail account. She became very defensive and would not give it to me. She said she didn't want to live with me looking over her shoulder. I explained to her it was a matter of trust and honesty with me. A few minutes later she got on the PC and I saw her delete somethings, then she had the nerve to say she wasn't trying to hide anything. A few minutes later she told me her password in a very irritated manner. At this point I didn't need to use her password, her actions were all I needed. The lies just keep on coming.... </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ray,<P>I'm going to ask Susie7753 to post here...she went through the same thing as your W, and she speaks to it very eloquently. Read her reply to Kevan on this board.<P>Mike<BR>

Ray, I understand what you're going thru. I did the same things your W is doing - had my cell phone bill sent to the office, private e-mail accounts, etc. I was secretive about EVERYTHING.<P>My H knew something was wrong but I denied everything. I lied about my whereabouts and started with the "I don't know what I want anymore" routine. I behaved terribly.<P>In very rare moments of clarity, I knew what I was doing was wrong but was powerless to stop it. I was operating with half a brain, so wrapped up in the fantasy that I couldn't think straight. My H tried so hard to make things right, but I refused to acknowledge his efforts.<P>Finally, he had to resort to tapping our phone to find out what he needed to know. He confronted me with a tape with a week's worth of conversations with OM, which took place while my H was away on business. When I heard myself on the tape, I couldn't believe the way I sounded. At that moment, I realized what I'd done to my H and couldn't believe I was capable of such a thing. What was I thinking?? Talk about a reality check!!!<P>I only hope your W comes to her senses before it's too late. If I hadn't, I'd have lost my wonderful H, a man who loves me more than I ever knew.<P>I wish you strength,<P>Susie

Thank you Susie for you insight. I'm still waiting for that "magic" moment were she finally sees the pain she is causing everyone who loves her. She is in complete denial of the last 5 years. <P>The more I understand, the more I see this as not just an affair with a certain individual. It's almost like she has used relationships to fill a void she has. Just another addiction to try and find happiness. A void I caringly attempted to fill. I think her EA's have been with anyone that will accept her as a 21 year old college student, which she's not. She's 32 with the responsibilties all mothers have, instead her motto is To have fun and live life like there is no tomorrow. The way she's going tomorrow might not come. <P>When she socializes with this group, alcohol is always the focus. The alcohol and her obsession with hockey connects her to this crowd. I know, I was in college once. No responsibilities, booze, women, ahhh the good life. The good life for a 21 year old, not a 31 year old father of two. She's driven home drunk from many of these gathering, other times she has used alcohol as an excuse to not come home at all. What will happen if she ever gets picked up on a DUI or worse yet kills herself or someone else? What kind of future will our children have then? What happens when all these friends start to mature and start on their own path of life. What will she do then? <P>She does not want to see this. I have tried to relate my return to reality to her as a positive. I'm facing my problems and doing whatever it takes to make myself a better person and father. I accept and take full responsibilty for my actions in the past. I've learned my lesson before it was to late. Facing reality was the hardest thing I've ever had to do, but it's also one of the most satisfying. I've gained back my self-esteem and self-respect. I have gained a self-awareness where I will never, ever let this happen again. In short, I've grown up. <P>I want to take this time to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. I look forward to your insight everyday. I give a lot of credit for my internal strength to this board and the people that make it the asset it is. I commend you all.<P>Your friend,<BR>Ray