I may be opening up a can of worms, but I read so many posts from people struggling with the implementation of Plan A that I thought I'd open up a philosophical discussion. Before expressing my opinions, I need to be clear that I myself did do Plan A for about 18 months in total. So when I'm critical, accept that I'm criticizing my own behavior in the hopes that others can learn. Here goes.<P>I am a great believer in the Harley methodology and it helped me work through a horrible situation. However, I am convinced that there is no greater misunderstanding and misapplication of techniques than in the betrayed's use of Plan A. FAR, FAR too many betrayed's seem to believe that if they stop love busting, go to great efforts to meet the wayward's needs (while the affair continues), and don't bring up OR talks or any issues, their spouses will eventually come back. While the spouses sometimes do come back during Plan A, it is my strong belief that their coming back is much more related to the natural death of their affairs than any action the betrayed is taking.<P>Plan A serves one narrowly defined purpose only. Its purpose is for the betrayed spouse to demonstrate for the wayward spouse the behavior he/she is capable of should the wayward ever decide to return to the marriage. That's it. It does not and cannot be used to: 1) win the spouse back from the OP, 2) recreate love from the wayward while the affair continues by meeting emotional needs, 3) unconditionally demonstrate love and self-sacrifice from the betrayed, or 4) create guilt within the wayward.<P>While the positive aspects of Plan A are useful, they come with a very high negative cost if it goes on too long. The backlash to the betrayed's self-esteem grows over time as disrespectful behavior from the wayward is not only tolerated, but often rewarded. The betrayed forgets what it's like to respect him/herself, and just accepts whatever crumbs the wayward offers. Worse still, the betrayed remains so engrossed in the effort to meet the emotional needs of the wayward, that they're not focusing on developing a separate life. This doesn't always happen, but it happens far more often than it should.<P>I believe the Harley's are frequently misunderstood about Plan A. Their intent is for a SHORT Plan A, just to demonstrate the changes. Normally, they recommend going to Plan B at separation or after just a few months of Plan A. Plan B is almost always necessary according to the Harley's. Their advice is clear, but many people do not apply it as advised. Plan A goes way too far.<P>Unfortunately, it's best to accept that once someone decides to leave, whether they choose to come back is completely out of the control of the betrayed. The primary influences on the wayward's behavior are some combination of the state of the affair and the character of the wayward, not the actions of the betrayed. That's why Harley says go to Plan B and stay there. It's basically designed to allow a maximum waiting period for the affair to end.<P>Opinions?

Your right! <P>JL

You said it very well! I myself, have posted regarding the length of time in Plan A. I think you had to have been a pretty rotten spouse to continue in Plan A for months and months and have it bear fruit. I don't think there are that many of us who were truly rotten spouses. Most of us just fell into the rut that most marriages end up in somewhere down this journey of marriage.<P>I am a true believer in behaviorism. Plan A, when prolonged, does indeed reward bad behavior. Why in the world would someone give up the best of both worlds when there are absolutely no consequences, and even the extreme of accommodation, helping them to continue just as they please????? It simply feels too good to give it up when it's so easy and there is nothing to lose.<P>If you take a good hard look at those who have succeeded with the Harley method, most have gone to Plan B or WS has separated on their own to the point where they had little to no contact with BS because of their own doing. Regardless of who initiates the separation, the effects are the same. If WS initiates the separation then BS has a golden opportunity to let OP meet all of WS's ENs. OP doesn't know WS as well as BS and is very unlikely to be able to meet every EN WS has. It is only in Plan B that any sort of reality can set in. OP has to meet all WS's needs,they get nothing from BS. It gives a reality check in the form of a glimpse into what divorce would really be like. It also,most importantly, puts some uncertainty into the world of the WS.It becomes necessary to consider giving OP up when there is a real risk of losing BS(and all that comes with us) for good! No risk of loss = no change in behavior!

Distessed,<BR>I have to agree with you about Plan A. ii have been plan Ain' my behind off for awhile now. It has helped my H understand that I do love him. It has also put me in position of feeling bad about myself. He knows I love him, He says he loves me and misses me and our 4 boys. He says he thinks of coming home, But yet he still goes home to OW. So now I sit here and wonder if I still plan A or Plan B. The only thing that really scares me is if Plan B drives him farther away. But I guess in th elong run I have nothing else to lose. I also am afraid of no contact with him. He calls at least 3 times a day. He takes 2 out of 4 boys on weekends to OW home to sleep over. This makes me so angry. They do FAMILY stuff together. He leaves older boys out. They wouldn't go anyway, but I think he has a harder time facing them. If anyone has any advice pleas give it!!! Do i keep Plan Ain' or should I go to Plan B???

Distressed:<P>I agree 100%. Well said! <P>KLA: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Do i keep Plan Ain' or should I go to Plan B??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If your LoveBank account with your spouse is dangerously close to being bankrupted, you <B>need</B> to go to Plan B in order to protect the remaining love you have for him. I think you already answered your own question... don’t let fear dictate your actions.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Distressed:<BR><B>While the positive aspects of Plan A are useful, they come with a very high negative cost if it goes on too long.</B><P>Excellent post, excellent point, and something I have said myself. I will expand a little further. I do not think anyone should try to implement the concepts here without combining it with counseling with either one of the Harleys or a counselor schooled in their philosophies.<P>I think that one of the downsides of this wonderful site is that people scan some pages and think they can implement a successful marital recovery. In practice, Plan A is much, much more complex and subtle than most people here on the boards seem to understand. I have been dealing with a severely withdrawn W, not an affair, but in counseling with Steve Harley I learned many important rules that are not to be found here on the site. For instance, by way of example, one should NEVER point out their changed behavior to their spouse. By saying "See, I picked up my socks" or"See, I rubbed your back to show affection" or whatever, you are implying the act was artificial, and done only for your gain. Steve said, slightly sarcastically, "Why don't you just say that you are acting?" <P>I only use that as an example, but I had many other revelations of that nature in counseling with him. I think that he would counsel Plan B much, much sooner for many of the cases I see here. <P>Another thing that isn't recognized is the importance of monitoring the lovebank of the betrayed spouse (I wasn't betrayed, but I was the one actively trying to work on it, so I'll call myself that for the purposes of this post) Steve would constantly ask "How much I had left". Falling out of love is a very real threat for Plan Aers, because you are 'self-revelating' in a new standard for spousal behavior. And once you lose your love, the marriage is over, because the other party is clueless as to crafting a recovery.<P>Good post.<P>Mike<BR>

KLA:<P>The traditional advice I often see here is to stick with Plan A until you can't do it any more, then go to Plan B. I'd like to part with tradition.<P>My advice is to go to Plan B and make your husband live the natural consequences of his behavior. You were nice and helpful, he left anyway, and he's still keeping you in there as a "back-up". I say make him rely on the OW for everything and give yourself your life back.<P>There are no guarantees that any action you take will bring him back. But I do believe you have to act in your own best interest before Plan A becomes self-destructive. I'd let him go and start to figure out how to make myself happy under the circumstances. You could be living like this a long time (I've been separated since Sept. '98).<P>I'd tell you not to bother thinking about him or trying to figure him out, but there's no one yet who's been able to implement that advice. I'll give it none-the-less. It's futile to think you have any control over his behavior or to try to interpret anything he does. Until he comes to you with: 1) genuine remorse, 2) a commitment to end things with the OW, and 3) a desire to understand what went wrong and learn from it (implementation of the extraordinary measures, openness, and acceptance of your feelings), you have nothing of value.<P>Best of luck.

I've struggled with this question for quite some time. I'm in month 9 of Plan A, or whatever you want to call it, although I really didn't know I was in Plan A for the first three months since I hadn't yet discovered MB. In hindsight, I should have gone to Plan B at separation, two months into the affair, but I didn't know about Plan B. To go to Plan B now would create almost no change in what I'm doing except to write the plan B letter and have her deny the affair once again. We have little contact, but we must have some because of our son. I don't meet any of my wife's ENs except being involved with caring for my son, and that would continue in Plan B. We already live as if we're divorced. So what's the difference? I guess I would stop trying to initiate family activities which would prevent me from demonstrating my improvements and I would not allow her to come into my house. It would just make it harder to care for our son if we had no contact and collaboration on his education. I do not feel like my love bank is close to empty. My wife's affair was driven by the need to escape the pain of the loss of our younger son and most things associated with that ordeal - including me. Please tell me if I'm screwed up.<P>WAT

Thank you distressed...<BR>You have put down on paper (or screen) what I have been feeling. I just responded to a post asking How Long do we have to be a door mat? I have shown my H nothing but Love these past 4 months. He still has filed papers against me and is moving in with OW. In January he said if he was me he would have done the paperwork if he was in my shoes because he would not put up with this behavior himself.. Interesting. I think that is the reason why he won't come back-because he did cheat on me, walk out and abandon me and he thinks it is too late too come back and I don't deserve this treatment. Plan A does not break the affair off. The affair needs to die a natural death. Even if the affair did die a natural death I don't think my H would come back-I think he feels he doesn't deserve me so he stays with OW as a punishment. I do believe on working on a marriage and making changes and finding out what went wrong but I am tired of being alone in this fight. I've only been in this game for 4 months. 2 more months is my time limit. I want to live again and go out and have fun, I want someone who loves me and will help me around the house. I want someone to laugh with. No I do not laugh around my H-he is never around!! He has hurt me more than anyone else could-All I associate with him is pain. When he would talk to me he would just yell and make threats -like shutting off my utilities. I look at my H as a child now that will need a lot of care and support in the future when he does wake up. Yes-I would hope he would come to his senses before the paperwork is signed but I do not live on false hope anymore and get hurt anymore....<p>[This message has been edited by Trs (edited February 27, 2001).]

Worthatry:<P>Well, it's always hard to evaluate someone else's position. I'll throw out a couple of thoughts.<P>It sounds like there are many extenuating circumstances to your wife's affair, but I'll also question whether you may be absorbing too much responsibility for things, or allowing your wife the "out" about the loss of your son. I have trouble writing this because I personally cannot imagine such a loss and feel great sympathy towards you. But the fact remains, she has been in, and is CHOOSING TO CONTINUE an affair. There really is no excuse for it.<P>In many ways, you're doing Plan B, but the family time is not that. I resent my family-time efforts during the separation. You write that this is your opportunity to show her your changes - I'd bet you've done that in spades so far. She's not going to see anything new, and what she has seen hasn't changed her mind. You can work through your son's issues during Plan B. I know this because I did it myself with a six year-old.<P>This "draining of the lovebank" concept is one of the key ones people use about why it's "safe" to stay in Plan A longer. Hogwash. What about your own life? Plan A is a short-term strategy. She should live with the consequences of her behavior, including loss of family time. The fact is, you're not a family. She chose that.<P>You're not screwed up, just very loving and unwilling to give up. I was the same way. I still believe, however, that what you're doing won't work. Plan A does not turn the situation around. You can't control it. The best bet is to let her live with the ramifications of her decisions while you try to make your own life as happy as possible. It buys time for the affair to die on it's own, and for her to miss what was her family.

While I wait to speak to Dr Harley(tomorrow) about my situation and whether plan A or Plan B, I feel trapped so to speak because my H, WS, will NOT LEAVE THE HOUSE. "IT'S MY HOUSE and I pay all the bills so why should I go. Why don't you leave." He then shows me the door. <P>I have been moving on with my life, supoort groups, church,, making friends and taking care of the kids. <P>My lawyer told me there is no way I could force him out of the house. Since I found this sight, I have been no LB and being pleasant and nice. There is no way he will let me meet any of his EN. He has told me "he broke of his relationship" with other woman, but that is a bold face lie. Yes, he doesn't bring my kids around her anymore because I threatened him with court instead of mediation. <P>I have previously told him from Dr. Dobson's Tough Love principles that I don't care what you do with your life, don't drag the kids in with you. I do love you and I don't want to divorce but this is YOUR choice. So I feel as if i really need professional advice.<P>Hopelessmom<BR>

Distressed:<P>While I agree with you that too much of Plan A is a bad thing (and 3-6 months should be considered the "norm"), I did want to voice my opinion on a relatively minor issue.<P>Plan A does have the purpose of "winning" the wayward spouse back, in that Plan A behavior is used by the betrayed spouse as a tool to negotiate an end of the affair. It's done just as you state the "major" goal of Plan A is for: you do this by addressing behaviors that may have led to the deterioration of the marriage (eliminating lovebusters, meeting unmet needs). I notice that a lot of people are uncomfortable about thinking about Plan A as a "competition" with the OP---although it the end, Plan A is about YOU changing YOUR behavior, if it can help you to view it as a competition, then think of it as such...<P>I would also guess that the success rate of pure Plan A in negotiating the end of an affair is about 1-in-4. That doesn't mean that Plan A is useless 75% of the time, but it does indicate that a separation may be needed to deal with the affair.<P>Other than those minor points, the post is right on in my book.

I COMPLETELY agree with you.<P>I have even had this same conversation with my husband (WS) and he has said time and again exactly what you just have. It's common sense that negativity and screaming (lovebusting behavior) are not going to accomplish anything in the midst of an active affair (however hard it is NOT to do it!), but I also firmly believe that most BS's cannot 'negotiate' an end to an affair while the WS is in the middle of it. (I am not knocking the Harley principles, only how they are applied to certain situations, as you've addressed). They (WS) aren't even thinking about their families or responsibilities during these times; mainly they're behavior is just irrational. My husband and I have been able to discuss openly re: his irrational actions, and I can't say that I once was even able to try to execute a passable Plan A ( <I>while he was actively involved in the affair</I> ), I knew my self esteem couldn't handle it. I didn't lovebust, but I did leave him for a short time and I guess you could say an immediate Plan B was put in place. Maybe that was selfish and weak of me?<P>I also believe that if a person is always a 'giver' in the marriage, and their spouse became engaged in an affair, what is Plan A for, when you've been basically doing this your entire marriage? My idea of a healthy relationship is where both parties give equally (never demanding), and there are obvious boundaries that both of you know you won't cross because of the mutual respect you have for one another. Additionally, I think Plan A for life (for both partners) is an excellent concept we should all live by. <P>Thanks, Distressed for bringing this up.<p>[This message has been edited by Kayleigh (edited February 27, 2001).]

Wow, what an awesome thread. Glad I stopped by.<P>I have some comments regarding Plan A that may not be popular but I think are rarely brought up. And I promise that they are not from anger but merely my observations.<P>The concept of meeting the EN of the WS during Plan A to bring the "potential" of the relationship to light may indicate that the affair happened because the EN of the WS weren't being met. I think we all get this.<P>I know that my wife had the affair because her emotional needs weren't being met, but frankly during that time mine weren't either. So it was an equal abandonment. However I did not have an affair.<P>With that said, I sometimes worry that my WS now gets the impression during Plan A that her EN weren't met but mine WERE, why else would I have the desire and energy to now meet hers. She more or less reacts that way at times.<P>So.. I fully agree that Plan A must be for a brief period, so don't sacrafice or comprimise your dignity. Go to Plan B before you are spent. But get professional help during plan A.<P>Now with that said, I have been in Plan A for a very brief time and it's working well. We have set up counseling, my wife is loving etc.. but there are still some things that make me real nervous that she is communicating with OM.. However thanks to the advice here I know how to deal with it.<P>So my advice, is work real hard on Plan A, get professional help, but make sure you know when to move on.<P>K

I've got a Plan B question for the experts out there. Suppose you do Plan B, and your marriage is not saved. Some divorced couples manage to eventually be civil and attend events with the kids together, etc. There are varying degrees of this, as we all know. Is Plan B designed for the short to medium term, where you would not have contact until you either reconcile or have no love left, or does it also mean that the no contact thing is for life. So in other words, if you Plan B, are you saying no contact ever again, or just until the status of your marriage is clear, and thus at a later time can have contact again if both desire it.<P>I'm having trouble wording this, but hopefully you know what I mean. Before we ever got into this mess, we knew one couple that were getting divorced and they were doing things together with the kids alot, and we were always impressed. Of course I didn't know about Plan B then, and also, their split was quite mutual. But if I did Plan B, it would be my decision that resulted in us not ever being together with the kids, and I know they enjoy it. Plan B would be done for the obvious reasons, and it is her choice to separate, but anyway, these thoughts have led to the question I just asked.<P>Thanks!

Rick37, I believe that plan B is only meant for the period during which you are still trying to reconcile. The idea, as others have said, is to force the WS to get all ENs met by OP and get a taste of what divorce will be like. Once the divorce is final, there is no longer a need for plan B. Hopefully, at that point, Plan B would have helped you to detach emotionally from WS so divorce is less painful. Then you could try to establish amicable relationship with your ex. for kids sake.

Hey Distressed....long time no type!! How ya doing? I was perusing old posts awhile back and saw your "I filed" one, what's the current status? Going OK?<P>What a great thread this is.....certainly a topic that needs to be discussed more often.<P>I completely agree with you also - on a lot of your points. Especially what you stated Plan A WAS NOT to be used for and the "natural death" of the affair.<P>But, I think that the difficulty of Plan A or B for that matter - lies in the fact that they are somewhat vague. They probably need to be - because, after all - there is virtually no way to cover every variance that could occur in each relationship scenario. <P>As we all know....people are different, as well as the circumstances and factors comprising each of our situations. While I am certainly not one to grab onto the "we're all different and therefore can do things differently" mindset exhibited by some, I do think that when you focus on a timeline - there is definitely that factor to be looked at and considered. NOT the way to IMPLEMENT plan a or b.....just in how long they should last.<P>While one betrayed spouse may be pretty calm and rational with their pain and confusion....another may be completely overtaken by pain, anger and grief with absolutely NO rational thinking capabilities. While one betrayed spouse may be discovering MB near the start of the affair, another may be finding MB near the end.....as well as all the various stages in between being the timing where these Plans are begun.<P>Add to this "personality, emotional capability and timing" variable, <BR>- the varying circumstances (ie: personal/marital behaviors, communication skills, spousal withdrawal stage/degree, giver/taker, Lovebank levels, etc.) <P>- and the added factors of: upbringing/learned behavior, addictions such as alcohol, drugs or sex, avoidance levels, living arrangement, children, job, and a million other things ... and there is where you can only begin to attempt a "time" calculation for each Plan......<P>I believe that it is the more important thing to worry about becoming "stuck" than it is to worry a specific plan time. <P>The bigger question being "Have I accomplished all that I can<P>- for myself (in my understanding, thinking, application of behavioral changes/physical changes,, mental stability, perspective, attitude, bad habits, etc.)<P>- for my spouse (eliminating love busters & disrespectful behavior/judgements, opened a path for safe and honest communication, discovered emotional needs, etc.) and <P>- for the Marriage (sufficient family/home attention/time, leading the way with considerate and compromising attitudes/behaviors, effort given to enhancement of physical and environmental (lightheartedness/aura/positiveness) aspects of the home, etc.) <P>Using my own situation for example...<P>I found MB over two years after the start of H's infidelities....more than that if you add the "pulling away" time.<BR>Merely a few weeks after discovery of these principles and with only a week of implementation of "Plan A" - H moved out. Two weeks later, he filed for divorce.......<P>If I had found MB earlier, say at the mid distancing mark (before any infidelity), things may have been nipped in the bud fairly quick. Or had it been a couple months or even a year into the infidelity time - Plan A would have been necessary for longer perhaps but the factors involved would not have been as many as what I eventually came to in the real situation....the years prior to his leaving were the ones where the relationship was "stuck" in a vicious cycle of avoidance, eggshell walking, confusion, miscommunications and frustration. All that time in such a marital state dumped a heck of a lot of added distance between us and determination/resolve on H's part that it was hopeless......<P>So, I guess what I am saying is that each person attempting a Plan A.....is the one who determines the time it takes by how long it takes them to do what they are supposed to do!!!! <P>If Plan A is looked at as a temporary act/action then that is what you will reap from it.....temporary results (if any!!!). If Plan A is a true change of understanding the dynamics of a relationship and your part in it, then you cannot help but accomplish the positive movement necessary for the relationship.<P>None of that says it is a contest though, does it? None of that implies if I do this....then my spouse should do that and then it works out great!!!<P>All Plan A ultimately does is make the Plan A'er ready to be a good partner!!!<P>Some people only need a bit of fine tuning....couple that with a spouse who is not too distant and you can have a very short plan A. <P>But what about the other extreme? The person who is a real B and needs a lot of work!! Add a spouse that has distanced themselves so far away they are submerged in another world......well, I don't think that their Plan A would be as short as the first couple's is, would it?<P>Before I close, I guess I should explain what I meant by "vague" for the Plans..<P>Some people look for actual definitive steps to get through this....they can't think, either because of the crazy emotional state or they are just "tell me what to do EXACTLY" kind of people.<P>When they are told to fill emotional needs even with some examples of what emotional needs are....it is still not very specific for them to grasp onto.<BR>Another example is the tendency to "just act nice all the time" - but that is not really what you are doing.....<P>There is too much play in the explanations of the plans to be used by people who need specifics. I myself have always had trouble with defining Lovebusters when pertaining to H...ask Chris - he knows!!! LOL!!!<P>With H's whackiness - what wasn't ever a LB before is now all of a sudden a BIG one.....and visa-versa.....then keep changing them around week to week.....To me that was exhausting!!!! I did much better just following what I knew needed to get done by me and changing into the person I wanted to be and limiting my focus towards that goal.<P>I still have some work to do and that is why I am still in what would be labelled Plan A......<P>H, however, goes from Plan A to Plan B all on his own!!!! LOL!!!!<P>Hope this adds some thoughts to the mix.....and I miss all these great minds, glad I happened by to see this!!<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba<P> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited February 27, 2001).]

This is a good thread and information that everyone considering a strict application of the "plans" needs to think about carefully. <P>I have great concerns about allowing plan A to become a competition between the wounded spouse and the op. In Torn Asunder, Dave Carder is very clear that this is an extremely dangerous thing to do. There is a very real risk of the competition escalating behaviors to such a level that they can never be continued in real life if and when the spouse returns to the marriage. And if a spouse is in an active affair, they aren't thinking realistically or honestly about any aspect of their life. They are simply interested in getting their ego stroked. <P>I agree that we are all more vulnerable to an affair when needs aren't met in the marriage. But let's face it. at some point all of us go with unmet needs but all of us don't have affairs. To reduce the choice to have an affair totally to unmet needs, thereby shifting <B>way</B> too much responsibility to the wounded spouse, is inappropriate. Unmet needs impact vulnerability, but bad decision making begins an affair.<P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

Many, many good points. I'll take a shot at this.<P>Hopelessmom, I feel horrible about your situation. How do you handle his not leaving? I think this is an instance that requires professional help. But I also think that someone behaving this badly deserves very little consideration. You Plan A for a bit, but then it has to change. You can't live your life like this. Best of luck.<P>Hi K my old friend. I always appreciate and value your thoughts. I agree, once in a while the affair ends during Plan A. But not very often. I don't really think too many infidels use POJA or negotiate in anything other than their personal best interest during an affair. Those that have the courage to end things usually do so at discovery. If it goes past that with no effort to end things (not even failed effort and certainly no remorse), Plan A is probably not going to have any effect at all except to enable the current situation.<P>Let me say this straight up. If the infidel at discovery shows no concern for the emotions of the betrayed, no remorse about his behavior, and no willingness to make any effort, the odds of ANY plan working go dramatically down. Resolution will take a very long time, at best. Plan A is of almost no value here past the first couple of months. If I had it to do over again and saw this combination of behavior, I'd have sped myself along to Plan B, and then probably Plan D, much sooner.<P>Kayleigh, I don't think going quickly to Plan B is weakness at all. This is rotten speculation on my part, but I think that most of us that did extended Plan A's did so out of fear. We were afraid that if we stopped actively working things, it was the same as giving up. Fear is almost never a good basis for decision making. It's my opinion that it's actually harder to implement a good Plan B than it is to do Plan A for most people, at least initially. Once you're in Plan B for a few weeks, it's materially easier than Plan A.<P>Karl, I think far too many of us in extended Plan A blamed ourselves disproportionately for the affair. I sure did and then tried to spend the next year making up for some of my acknowledged inconsiderate behavior. I made a project of myself. Regardless of culpability during the marriage, only one party made the decision to have an affair, and that was a selfish and inconsiderate one. Worse, when that party won't stop, won't acknowledge the pain of the betrayed, and acts as though he's a victim, you've got a ridiculous situation going. The infidel is responsible for the affair, period. All of us have flaws and made mistakes in our marriages, including the infidels. We don't all run off, have affairs, and blame the betrayed for the affair to boot. In my case, my husband's has even managed to blame his abandonment of the children on me.<P>Rick37, I agree with the comments about Plan B really being temporary too. You only do it until your love is gone and you want the marriage over. After that, you settle into whatever you want you long-term relationship with your ex-spouse to be. This is where I'm at now, during Plan D. But, since I have no respect for my spouse, I don't find myself wanting much of a relationship with him.<P>Sheba, great points as always from my old pal. No, there really can't be a complete one size fits all. I do think however, that self improvement can occur during Plan B too. It's not just a Plan A function. I agree completely with you that the timeline is CRITICAL. Almost no one can be objective about their own situation and no one can do a perfect Plan A or Plan B. If we strive for those, we'll never finish. You are so correct. You have to set a timeline and live with it, no matter where things are at that time. No one could know that better than the two of us. There is always what appears to be a good reason for going longer with a failing approach. Almost never will it help to extend the timeline.<P>I draw a distinction between actively doing Plan A and the effort to understand the problems from the marriage and improve oneself. The latter should be an ongoing activity, regardless of what happens to the marriage. Plan A is specifically a strategy for marital recovery of that particular marriage. In my case, even though I no longer desire recovery, I continue to look at my own behavior and actively work to do better in my current and evolving relationships. Learning is a never ending process and ALL OF US made mistakes in our marriages. We have to learn to forgive ourselves, which for some of us may be the hardest task of all.<P>My own divorce is a fiasco, but I won't bore the crowd with the details. Suffice it to say that the same non-responsiveness during the separation continues into the divorce. But I am clear that I need to be divorced and that I did everything possible to turn this around. I have no blood on my hands.<P>Best of luck all. There's greater agreement regarding this thread than I expected.<P>

At the risk of opening myself up to more of the same criticism I have gotten in the past due to my reluctance to go to Plan B, I will be the voice crying out in the wilderness.<P>I have been accused in the last two years of my Plan A behavior of being a doormat, enabling my husband, having no self respect and many other things. My Plan A was for ME as well as a part of my attempt to save my marriage. I was, for several years before I found out about my husband's affair, a terrible wife, and not so great of a person. Plan A, for me, has showed me that I have control over both how I behave toward my husband AND HOW I FEEL about myself. I had spent the previous several years in my relationship having to be right, having to have the last word, quibbling about minor details, obsessing over things that happened and were over and done with. Although I wasn't the only one making the relationship miserable, I KNOW I made a tremendous contribution to the break down of our marriage.<P>How many of those in recovery are completely recovered in 6 months? A year? How many of those in recovery are here repeatedly saying things like "It's only been six months and he says he doesn't understand why I can't 'just get over it'" or "She wants me to just put it behind us like it never happened"? When one has been a b!tch for 4 years, do you think that it will take only 6 months of good behavior to prove to your spouse that you have truly changed? Heck - it took me longer than 6 months to prove to MYSELF that I'd truly changed. I haven't stayed in Plan A this long out of 'fear' at all - I've stayed in Plan A this long because I felt it was the right thing to do.<P>I want to also point out that several someones here who were counseling with Steve Harley were counseled to stay in Plan A for as long a period of time as they could. Are we second-guessing the expert here?<P>I am not being argumentative, merely saying that every case has to be viewed on its merits ... every situation has to be evaluated with ALL the facts ... before anyone can even hazard a guess as to when someone is 'misapplying' Plan A. And then, it should only be done by the experts. As I've said before - we cannot ever truly walk in the shoes of anyone else here on this forum. And, while we may have read Surviving an Affair cover to cover a hundred times (which I sincerely doubt many of us have done), it is not up to any one of us to judge the behavior of others when it comes to what we've each done to save our marriages.<P>As I finally realized after finding out about my husband's affair, if one person knows there is a vicious cycle in progress, that person then is the one who has the power to stop the cycle. That's what Plan A is about. Taking the initiative to change behaviors detrimental to relationships. If it saves your marriage then you have been rewarded with that. If it doesn't save your marriage, then you know that you did what you could do. As Distressed words it, there is no blood on your hands. There is no blood on mine, either... but there is a good deal of well-earned dirt and grime from the work I've done on myself.<P>Stepping down off the soapbox now...<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>