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Joined: Jan 2001
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Orchid Offline OP
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Hi, <P>I posted this notice on the recovery site but I am desperate for assisatance and know there are a bunch of you good people here that might be able to help me. Please read the items below and all comments are appreciated. <P>Ok here goes: This is request is an emergency one. I would greatly appreciate some advice TODAY. <P>1. WS says he wants to come home since last Saturday. Been living out since 12/31/00. Running out of money (today is 3/1/01). WS says he wants to make his family happy and for himself is not really happy in any situation. WS has been in this A since Aug 2000 both EA & PA. WS began moving stuff back last night. <P>2. While moving stuff from storage, WS says I have something to tell you: OW has not been informed that he is coming back home. OW thinks they broke up and that WS is still getting a divorce. So OW is making big plans to get him back. OW called him over & he went to hear her out and they did their thing. Then WS says he regrets going over to her home (which she previously never let him visit her there) and will tell her he is moving home and will cut off all contact with her. <P>3. Needless to say, this threw me for a whopper. I kept quiet and asked him what is he going to do. He says that regardless of where he ends up, he will not be truly happy at least for now. He says he knows he belongs with his family and that he made a vow to me and needs to keep it. Realize this, H has never been a happy person anyway (childhood disfunctional family problems). Then I asked him to convince me that he wanted to come back. He said moving his stuff should be convincing enough but he did not want to talk anymore about it. Now I am beginning to have doubts.<P>4. My company is paying for a short 4 day cruise. I have the option of taking either my son or H. H wants to go. H actually wants all of us to go but we don't have the money for the difference. It is coming up soon (less than a month), I am not sure H will still feel the same when it comes time to go and he says he is 90% sure he will be ok. I asked him if he comes home (which is tentatively scheduled for this weekend), would he be willling to stay while I go on this cruise with our son? He says, he would not trust himself alone without his family. I guess I understand that. I told H that I needed to have a good time on this cruise, I really need a vacation and would be upset if those going were not able to enjoy themselves. Is that crazy? <P>QUESTION: Based on the above, what are your suggestions? H is now asking me if I want him back. I have to give an answer to the travel agent today. <P>L.

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Not sure what advice to give. I would of course say taking husband on cruise would be a great chance for you to Plan A. But that is on how strong your husband is between now and 1 month from now to stay with you. The safe bet would be to ask travel agent the penalties of switching between taking your husband and your son. You could say that your husband travels a lot and for now his schedule looks clear but if that changes what are the penalties IF ANY if you bring your son instead.

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Hi Orchid. Well this is the voice of several failed reconciliations so keep that in mind, but I think I've learned a few things by experience.<P>As for the cruise - again, the voice of cynicism - I would go with your son. Especially if you have already talked to him about it and you feel YOU will have more fun this way. This is just my personal opinion but I did so many things to accommodate H's needs when we were in "pseudo recovery" - vacations, weekends away, etc. and in the end it didn't amount to a hill of beans as they say. Any recovery you have at this point is not going to hinge on what happens over ONE weekend. Maybe H can get a family member to stay with? <P>The rest of the things I bring up below are all longer term issues to work through over the first few weeks of recovery (but for me, "no contact" would have to be in place before I would spend any time on negotiating the others - just my own experience talking!)<P>1. I guess the first question is - Do you want him back?<P>2. If you do, what are your needs surrounding the reconciliation? (What does he need to do to "convince" you - he needs you to be specific). Believe me, moving his stuff is not enough. I have seen "stuff" come and go from my house at least three separate times.<P>3. And the third question for your H is what is he willing to do to meet those needs?<P>At a minimum some of these might be: <P>o No Contact: A no contact letter to the OP which states that he is finished with the affair and that he intends to try to do everything he can to reconcile your marriage. (My H would not agree to this kind of language because "he didn't know if we would be able to reconcile" and "why hurt her anymore" - this should have been a red flag to me indicating that he wanted to keep a path open to OW and was not committed to reconciling). I think that if the WS can demonstrate his intent clearly to the OP, that is some indication that the intent is clear within himself. The situation you describe where the OW still thinks he is divorcing would make me crazy. Does H still think you are divorcing?? Still, he did tell you this unsolicited and voluntarily. I think you can get him to listen to how this makes you feel and what you need.<P>o Reestablishment of trust: What do you need him to DO (not SAY) to demonstrate his trustworthiness. Discuss these things and come to agreement on them. E.g. schedules, passwords, etc. Beware that WS initially HATE this kind of accountability, but again, I believe that willingness to do it despite the discomfort demonstrates commitment to the recovery. Again hearing "I wouldn't trust myself without the family" can be viewed as good, because he is recognizing that he may feel depressed and weak in withdrawal. But the important question is how you agree to address it. I would either take him with you on the cruise or arrange for him to stay with a friend or family member.<P>o Counseling: Do you want to get him in joint counseling with you? <P>o And so on.<P>When I counseled with Steve H. during one of our reconciliations, he recommended asking the WS what he was willing to do first - not laying out your needs like demands - and then negotiate from there. I think having a trained "coach" is really critical at this point (like a Harley) because they can help your H understand his part in the recovery from a more neutral viewpoint - and one that you H is more likely to respond to at first. <BR>Good luck and enjoy your vacation - whomever you take it with!<P>Starpony<BR>

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Orchid.....<BR>I agree with trying2_4give in handling the cruise. That 4 days would be unbearable if your H didn't want to go, or if you both had words the entire time, and others would notice. Then again, it may bring you closer by being out of the situation, away from the surroundings of the hard times for a while. My husband and I went away for a week end, he ended up calling her behind my back and I caught him, what a mess, I was so hurt, couldn't he give it a rest for (((2 DAYS!!!)). You never know what is going to happen. (we are in recovery for 3 years as of last Monday now, and are doing great!)<P>Anyway...As far as moving back....I am of the belief that you should be together to work on this. BUT, only if he TOTALLY breaks it off. Maybe he should have a guest room for awhile in your home, it saves alot of hurting in the night, gives you both a break, helps you keep the hurt discussions out of the bed room. That room should be for the end result, the happy times, the re-bonding.<BR>My husband didn't make the total break til he felt he was losing ME. Wake up time for him!<BR> <BR>Counseling is a must, this Bad Brain period of your husband has to heal. Counseling helped my husband to open up through a third party while I sat there listening, thus hearing his own words, and giving him goals to reach for the next session.<P>Hope some of this makes sense to you....I know what you are going through...but each of us and each of our husbands are different, there is no set plan, you know what is best, but that too may change. Try different things, but know that if he doesn't make the TOTAL break, it won't work til he does.<P>Let us know what you decide!<BR>AH [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<BR>-----<BR>TIME<P> <P>

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Hi all,<BR>I posted also on the recovery site but here is the latest skinny. Unfortunately, all is not good in the city.<P>I did sign up H for the cruise. Cost a bit to change but that was ok. H did make the call to OW but it did not turn out to be the final no more contact call I anticipated it would be. OW is a talkative person. When she sensed that he was trying to break it off, she went into a filibuster. Kept speaking for about 20 minutes, almost non-stop. I was there while this conversation (30 mintues) was happening and it sure made me feel queezy. H had to go to his 2nd job so he had to cut it short without making his final comments. This put me in a bad spot and I gotta admit I did some LB last night. <P>This morning he called said he did not have to go to work and was tempted to go by and see OW. He wanted to come by at my work so we could talk. I said this made me nervous since earlier this morning he said he was still moving back home. Now he wanted to make sure we both knew what was happening. <P>I am scared and nervous. Am I losing again? All this struggle to be undone by a phone call(s)? <P>It is now hard to concentrate on my work. I am starting to feel weak and anxious. Taking deep breathes but now I am dizzy. <P>L.<BR>

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U r on the rollar coaster ride that happens/happened to all of us. Though u DO have the advantage that your husband is being honest with you about wanting to go and see OW, a lot of us never had that truthful dialogue! Right now, be there for him as a friend, yes it is the hardest test u can take for yourself. But when he starts speaking about wanting to go and see the OW, listen as you have been doing and then make plans for the 2 of you so that he will not go and see her. He is going through withdrawal and it is going to take all of his strength to let this go. Stay as strong as you can be for yourself and your husband. Take deep breaths but continue moving forward the best that you can.

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Orchid Offline OP
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Hi all,<P>**Same comments posted in the recovery site**<P>Well, we talked. It did not turn out well. Mr. Indecisive kept to his character. He would not make a decision. He did at one point say that he wanted to be with her. I took that as my cue and well.... started driving towards her home. BIG LB!!! H was yelling at me telling me I was out of control, that I was forcing him to do something he did not want. I reminded him that his own words said he wanted to go there and I was accomodating his request (sarcastic, I know). At this point, the care is gone. I am worn out. He says he wanted to tell me he was going to come home but during our 3 hour conversation, that is not what I heard (I was listening very hard for those words, they just never came out). <BR>Anyway, I did not drop him off at OWs house. He jumped out of the car at the intersecion and started walking back to the freeway. Sound like a movie plot? Oh well. It gets better. He was trying to call her on the phone. Then I turned around and picked him off (just before the offramp). She called back in a few minutes and he kind of told her that I was trying to drop him off. She 'assumed' that I found out where she lived by having him followed. Not true but she can live with that thought. More babble from OW. I then took H to the travel agency and let him see how his indicisiveness is costing us money. I had to change the ticket back to our son. He said he would pay the difference. That is in addition to the money he already owes me for last month. <BR>I told H that I did this to make it easier for him, now he only had to chose between 2 places, OWs and his current residence (a rented room). Since he claimed he would eventually move in with OW anyway, now he had his chance. <P>Finally dropped H off at his truck and he left. Ironically, I don't feel the degree of sadness or pain I thought I would. Maybe this is a sign of finally doing something that needed to be done. Don't really know where this will lead but for now, I am in a realitive state of peace of mind. The turmoil now is no longer mine but H's. I think that is where is should be. <P>Did I get bad advice here? NO!!!! The advice was all good, the recipient (H) was not. <P>L.

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Well, we all want to be hopeful. If he had been in a differnt place then taking him on the trip would have been a lovely to reconnect.<P>But he is not there yet. He is still deep in the fog. Are you thinking about plan B? Sounds like you are about at the end of your love and patience with him. <P>I dont want to upset you, but I cracked up reading about you driving him to OW house. Thanks for the laugh. Sometimes ya just got to LB. <P>Lora

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Orchid Offline OP
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Hi,<P>I am now ready for plan B. The no contact process is now acceptable for me. There is no regret or guilt feeling on my part that I did not try hard enough. <P>Funny, while it was going on I did not get upset or lose control. H on the other hand did. Knowing I was in control helped me see that I was going to be ok. Even though I did not make it to OW's house, I got close enough. I made my point. I knew when I had taken enough from H and this was it. Where it goes from here time will tell. <P>L.

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I'm glad you feel such peace and strength. My H waffled back and forth for almost 4 months, changing his mind many, many times and moving out and back a few times. If I have learned anything from this process, it would be to take it slowly and NOT have him move back in without some recovery steps already in place. I would want the "no contact" in place, counseling already under way and maybe some dating before he came back. I think it is too easy to fall back into bad patterns when they come back and are in withdrawal etc. without a detailed plan for recovery in place beforehand. I don't think there is any harm in taking some steps to protect yourself at the front end --also I think it will help the recovery process.<P>Of course my opinion is based on my lousy track record, maybe others have had better success, but I still don't think it would hurt to come up with your recovery plan first. If he wants to come home, but isn't there yet, this may be the best time to get him to focus and take the plan really seriously. <P>I pray that your peace will last, whatever happens.

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Orchid Offline OP
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Hi E,<P>Thanks for your input. As with all the others, it is invaluable to me. The saga continues. Waffling is a good word as you will see. <P>Let's my last post was about 3 hours ago. I just came home from work and started on dinner. H called to apologize for his conduct earlier today. He said he was talking to OW and she said how come I don't know that they broke up? Broke Up? There was nothing permanent to their break up, I was present for that conversation last night and it mostly sounded like a little chit chat, no real tear jerker, this is my last call call. <P>Anyway, seems like H is now stuck in the middle again. OW while leaving a door open seems to be afraid to go forward with a commitment and H also is having second thoughts (the waffle effect). H is now hinting he wants to come back. Imagine in just 3 hours!!! I asked him what is motiving his decision, he says to make his family happy. Good reason but will it endure the withhdrawal? H will be broke either way (pay rent or pay me for what he already owes for his own bills that I am paying). Guess that's a motivator but not a good one. OW must be getting second thoughts also since if she takes him, she gets to have 'all' of him, for better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health..... All that big talk by the OW (promises to send him to school, get him a high paying job, take him on her international travels, etc.), makes one wonder if she is willing to put her 'money' where her mouth is. <P>Anyway, I am still at peace with myself. H will now have to convince me what his real motives are and what added value he will be bring back to our family, if he is allowed to return. <P>Stay tuned for the next chapter. Sounds like a soap opera?!?!<P>L.

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You sound like you are handling this great. If he is still waffling this much, I sure wouldn't let him come back yet. Make him really think through what he wants to do so he can be very resolved if and when he comes home. Withdrawal can be a bear and he'll need the resolve to get through it. <P>Also, I can't remember if you have kids, but I sure don't find it fun trying to explain to mine Daddy's strange moving in/moving out activities. Sorry to sound like a hard nose, but I wouldn't want you to suffer more from his waffling than you already are. Hang tough, you sound like one cool lady!

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Dear E,<P>Thanks for your response. We do have 1 son, 6 years old. He helped his dad move stuff from his storage back to our home. At first our son was scared his dad was moving to another place (he thought the storage space was his apartment), then when he realized things were going back to our home, our son was happy. That lasted 2 days. H was not making plans to move things from his rented room to our home, when I noticed that relunctance, I began to suspect he was not ready but did not want to admit it. That is what surfaced from our conversation this afternoon. <P>In another post, I stated that our son composed a 4 sentence letter to his father. Very much to the point asking him:<BR>1. Why was he getting a divorce.<BR>2. Why doesn't he want to live with us.<BR>3. I want you to live with us.<BR>4. I miss you.<BR>Our little one sealed his letter in an envelopment, addressed it to his dad and I delivered it the next morning. That was over 1 week ago. H read it and still went back to stay with OW (spending the night in her home).<P>It is hard for little ones to understand when a WS does what is clearly illogical. Our son says, "doesn't dad know better, he should." Yes, dad should know better. That is hard to explain. <P>You certainly are right about it being tough. At times it seems like I am the only one working to make things better. Then I read about how hard the rest of this group is working and feel their support. <P>Thanks again for being there for me and my family.<P>L. <BR>


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